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You need to think through your terms more clearly. You are using the word "speculation" as synonymous with "seeing property as an investment". But they are different.

Virtually any purchase costing hundreds of thousands of pounds IS an investment and MUST be considered as an investment: Is it good value? How does it compare with the alternatives (how does this house compare with other houses or with renting)? What are the costs and benefits associated with ownership of the asset? A house purchase IS an investment by definition.

By "speculation", on the other hand, you appear to mean "buying an asset in the hope of capital gain". I cannot recall seeing a single bear on this site saying that the hope of capital gains after a crash would be a motivation to buy. If you can point to a thread to contradict me, I invite you to do so.

I completely disagree and you've missed my point. There are people who do see property purely as an investement and as such, are speculators. They will be the first to jump back onto property as soon as they think it has troughed. I don't see the point in splitting hairs over terminology and purchase of a home is not, as you are suggesting, some sort of investment i.e. in the sense that you are putting money in to a venture in the hope of profiting from it in the short, medium or long term. I, like many others, see a house as somewhere to live - like most things in life, this has an associated cost. I, like many others are disgusted at how the house has become just another investment vehicle, to be manipulated by people whose sole aim is to profit from the hard work of others without lifting a finger. So, before you tell me what I need and need not think, I am perfectly happy with the wording of my post and I wholeheartedly reject your unfounded criticism.

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I completely disagree and you've missed my point. There are people who do see property purely as an investement and as such, are speculators. They will be the first to jump back onto property as soon as they think it has troughed. I don't see the point in splitting hairs over terminology and purchase of a home is not, as you are suggesting, some sort of investment i.e. in the sense that you are putting money in to a venture in the hope of profiting from it in the short, medium or long term. I, like many others, see a house as somewhere to live - like most things in life, this has an associated cost. I, like many others are disgusted at how the house has become just another investment vehicle, to be manipulated by people whose sole aim is to profit from the hard work of others without lifting a finger. So, before you tell me what I need and need not think, I am perfectly happy with the wording of my post and I wholeheartedly reject your unfounded criticism.

....you are correct....many people jump on the band wagon when prices go up...........consequently, it is only common sense that many will jump off when the sentiment changes and the word in the street is calling house prices are likely to come down....!

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....you are correct....many people jump on the band wagon when prices go up...........consequently, it is only common sense that many will jump off when the sentiment changes and the word in the street is calling house prices are likely to come down....!

Only if they bought a house for the wrong reason. If their mortgage payments are still affordable if interest rates climb (and this should be factored in by the financial "advisor") then what reason does anybody have to sell up unless their job is moving or they emigrate? All this talk of people STR'ing etc. They still have to live somewhere and this costs. I bet most people have reasonable mortgages - and by reasonable, I mean if interest rates climbed to 10 or 11 percent, they would still be able to comfortably afford the mortgage. This point seems lost on many on this board because it is unrepresentative and generally populated by either very shrewd or very bitter people with an axe to grind about not being as fortunate or lucky as other people. I repeat what I said before, we don't take a penny of it with us and as long as you have your health and can work, some people will prefer to work until they drop. Not everybody can have the millionaires lifestyle, that's the way the world works.

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Being new to all this I’m keen to know what other peoples situations are? I know its not just me who can’t afford to buy and I’m on a decent wage. What about the rest of you.

An apology in advance if this has been asked before on here and if it’s a bit intrusive but if you don’t ask you don’t get? Like can I have 50K off you overvalued port-a-loo Mr Property developer?

Where do you live?

What’s your status (STR, FTB etc)?

What do you earn?

Where do you live Hessle Nr Hull

What’s your status (STR, FTB etc)? STR

What do you earn? £30,000 PA

Somebody once said to me that asking someone how much they earn is a bit of a jedi mind trick.

Ask them, & stupidly they will tell you!

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Live : Newcastle

Status : FTB

Pay : Self Employed for 2 months, so hard to judge exactly, but estimate £25,000 from early sales

Best of luck mate, I wish you well in your business.

But as a cynical old bugger with 25 years of self-employment behind me;

If your projections suggest £25k profits then reckon on actually seeing about £10k!!!

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That's a bit harsh!

It wasn't meant to be harsh. I'm merely pointing out that the security and conditions of government jobs is about to go into reverse because the funds available are now going to grow more slowly than the rest of the economy, and that the reasoning used to claim that any job is recession proof is flawed.

I've made that last point as well as I can, so I'll say no more on it, other than to say that I class the fuzzy wrong thinking that erroneously arrives at a conclusion that any job is 'recession proof' is very, very similar to the equally flawed arguments that people use to conclude that property is always a good investment. It is for that reason that I become exercised about it.

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Live: north London

Status: owner occupier

Income: £90k combined

Equity: bought last year with 100% mortgage but now about £75k equity with rising market and overpayments

The mortgage on our 3 bed victorian semi is a very reasonable £1500 pm, allowing us to save or overpay the mortgage by at least another £1500 pm. Not all recent buyers are mortgaged to the max!

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Guest portwinestain

Live: Central Scotland

Salary: chocolate buttons for me, 32k for my live-in-wage-slave

House: Flat which we intend to sell. I bought it with my own money and paid for it for 5 years. Selling now.

Debt: lol, snigger lmao etc, oh yes

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Where do you live?

Highgate, north London. Small garden flat, £672pcm inc.

What’s your status (STR, FTB etc)?

FTB

What do you earn?

£32,000 (low for a London professional but stress free 35 hour week only)

Deposit

£20k

Currently happy to rent until mortgage repayments on a similar property become cheaper.

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I think you're right. Many of the posters on this thread could easily afford to buy a home but choose not to because they look at property, not as somewhere to live, but as an investment. This leads me to believe that they are would-be property speculators, attempting to talk the market down and then poised like vultures for when houses become "cheap" again.

- I was just about to make a similar point, although I think they are smarter than 'speculators' - I think alot of them will be future landlords if there is a crash.

This topic has changed my view of this site in a big way. I had thought it was full of people who just wanted to be in a position where they could afford somewhere to live, and instead it seems they are mostly very well off people, many of whom will be able to buy a house outright if the market crashes.

Ironically, these people will probably be the new BTL-ers of the future.

When I see salaries of £76K and £300K being posted here, these people obviously don't have money problems. They are just either jealous they didn't buy a load of houses 5 years ago, or greedy people who want the market to crash so they can buy a load of houses and become landlords.

Thank you to the starter of this topic, it has been a real eye opener.

Edited by JoeDavola
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Well NEWSFLASH! pal, this isn't the Socialist Republic of People Without Houses.

This is a forum dedicated to discussing house prices and predicting their future. Your definition of well off may well not be mine. Your irony of people being future BTL landlords has contains no irony as it is blatantly a valid investment strategy at certain time in the cycle.

You seem to believe that people on 50k, 100k or 200k can't have money problems. Which only illustrates the poverty of your own existence and imagination. Trust me, you lifestyle expands to slight outbloat your salary REGARDLESS of income up until you find yourself being in the House of Saud.

We all want a HPC. It would be good for the country in the long term and its going to happen anyway. Some of us, me included, seek to gain from the crash. I make no apologies for it and do not seek you approval nor give a hoot about your disaproval.

ANDY

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Live: North London (N14)

Status: Owner occupier

Income: £70k (£80k combined)

Equity: bought 180 k 3-bed property 3 years ago with 95% mortgage (FTB). Now about 30% equity with rising market and repayments. Repayment mortgage currently £954/month (22 years remaining).

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Well NEWSFLASH! pal, this isn't the Socialist Republic of People Without Houses.

This is a forum dedicated to discussing house prices and predicting their future. Your definition of well off may well not be mine. Your irony of people being future BTL landlords has contains no irony as it is blatantly a valid investment strategy at certain time in the cycle.

You seem to believe that people on 50k, 100k or 200k can't have money problems. Which only illustrates the poverty of your own existence and imagination. Trust me, you lifestyle expands to slight outbloat your salary REGARDLESS of income up until you find yourself being in the House of Saud.

We all want a HPC. It would be good for the country in the long term and its going to happen anyway. Some of us, me included, seek to gain from the crash. I make no apologies for it and do not seek you approval nor give a hoot about your disaproval.

ANDY

"Andy Jones" from the latin > "devoid of" ;)

I prey for you

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Ah, the government job. I know someone who works in a permanent government post, earning roughly twice your salary, and they're pretty high up. Let me assure you, the government spending spree on government jobs is well and truly over. You are very likely to 'enjoy' a guaranteed payrise yearly, buy it is highly likely to be locked down way below inflation for years to come now.

In the great depression, unemployment ran at rates between 10 and 30% in the west. Loads of people were still in work, and so by your measure 'recession proof'. In a recession, jobs such as yours are almost guaranteed to be available, just as is the case for almost any other job. What will also be the case is that there will be fewer of them, there will be more people chasing them, the pay will be eroded, and you may not be one of the ones that has one.

I know that the big govt spending spree is over, and that my future pay rises may only be at the rate of inflation. But that's better than 0% rises (which is what lots of people are currently receiving in the private sector, and these are the 'good times' - how bad would things be if we were actually in a recession), or worse, redundancy! It's all relative really. I will still be better off that many people. And thankful for it.

I think you're right. Many of the posters on this thread could easily afford to buy a home but choose not to because they look at property, not as somewhere to live, but as an investment. This leads me to believe that they are would-be property speculators, attempting to talk the market down and then poised like vultures for when houses become "cheap" again. I have no interest in buying at the moment, even thought I could. My reason is that I cannot get a 25 year fixed rate mortgage that I can sensibly afford and I'm not willing to pay for somebody elses lifestyle with my wages, which I worked hard to be in a position to earn. At the end of the day, you don't take a penny of it with you when you leave this world and I can only hope that I have health and lots of energy to allow me to continue living in this world until I give up the ghost. Everything else is irrelevant.

Not so for me! I only want one house, to live in. The BF and I earn just over £50K between us and the average house price in NI is £215K. I can't afford to buy even with him - what if we wanted children??? Paying that kind of mortgage on one salary???

Yes, we could afford to buy if we stretched ourselves - but we are not willing to. And we are not alone.

Live: Bristol

Status: Working full time and a single parent. Job not recession proof (none is I agree) but is unlikely to disappear unless the funding does. (I am employed as a debt adviser!). I rent.

Earn: not enough. less than £25k

Deposit: A measly £10k

I love renting. I adore it. I was a home owner for 15 years or so, and had all the headaches which went with it - reponsible for all the upkeep - always stressful when there is no man around to put up the shelves - do they have any other use? (men I mean, not shelves), no housing benefit when I found myself on income support, inflexible and stressful.

I have rented for the last five years and have no intention of buying. I love the freedom - if I get fed up of the place- a months notice and I am up and away! And it means I don't have any personal worries about interest rates crippling me and risking my home - yes the rent goes up slightly each year but if interest rates also rise - so does the interest on my savings. I have no angst about spending on refurbs or double glazing. Not worth it when you're renting - slap a tub of Dulux round and blow the money on a diving trip to Thailand instead!

The British obession with "owning" a property is a curse for many. I would love more people to realise that it is a poisoned chalice and just not engage with the whole utter utter nonsense of it all. House prices can do what they like - I am staying out of the circus.

The sooner people realise money is not the source of happiness, in fact quite the opposite, the better. IMHO.

What a fantastic post. I hope you post more often.

I completely disagree and you've missed my point. There are people who do see property purely as an investement and as such, are speculators. They will be the first to jump back onto property as soon as they think it has troughed. I don't see the point in splitting hairs over terminology and purchase of a home is not, as you are suggesting, some sort of investment i.e. in the sense that you are putting money in to a venture in the hope of profiting from it in the short, medium or long term. I, like many others, see a house as somewhere to live - like most things in life, this has an associated cost. I, like many others are disgusted at how the house has become just another investment vehicle, to be manipulated by people whose sole aim is to profit from the hard work of others without lifting a finger. So, before you tell me what I need and need not think, I am perfectly happy with the wording of my post and I wholeheartedly reject your unfounded criticism.

Yes, we will jump in and buy at the trough. Why wouldn't we??? It's called buying low and can mean the difference between a short mortgage and a long one. The difference between working till you drop and retiring early. The difference between seeing your children grow up and not. See, there's a lot more to it than money.

Edited by tara747
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Live: Essex

Status: FTB, Renting 1200pcm (400k+ Flat)

Earn: £300,000 ish (very good but not secure so not willing to have a mortgage for more than £200k)

Deposit: £never enough, refuse to pay £1m+ for something that was 500k a couple of years back!

Roll on the end of this madness!

PP

You earn 300k a year...? What kind of job pays that well :blink:

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There are some pretty interesting posts on here.

As one of the people who is considered to be a high earner by other posters, I can assure you that even when you earn a reasonable salary, there is a still a huge amount of risk when buying at the wrong time. For example, if I were to lose my job, our household income would drop by over £100k p.a, therefore making a mortgage (even at a "comfortable" 3 times our current joint salary) un-affordable on my wife's salary alone. Plus, it is also a lot harder to find a job that pays that sort of money, so you potentially stand the risk of being out of work for a lot longer. In addition to this, in my industry, the added pay comes with a considerable amount of risk and a huge amount of pressure that, whilst I am still young, is OK but I really do not want to be doing my job at 55 / 60 years of age just to pay off a huge mortgage.

So why don't I buy a house now & shut up.

1: Why would I want to purchase a massively inflated asset that has every possibility of decreasing in value by 10 - 20% over the coming years (10 - 20% of, say, £750K is a chunk of change that will take a long time to recover)?

2: If I can wait for as long as possible, I will see my buying position improve exponentially (even now, there are price reductions all over the place - this can only benefit me in negotiations when jumping back in with no chain & good equity)

3: I do not want to become a wage slave for the next 25 years, paying for an investment decision I made at 33 years old, having not seen my son grow up

4: I see property as an investment (not to flip). If I am going to spend close to three quarters of a million pounds (try saying that without your sphyncter tightening (I know I can't!!) on something, I damn well want to make sure I get value for money out of my investment & a decent return when I do come to sell it - who wouldn't. However, first and foremost I see the property that I will buy as being a long term home for me, my wife and our son.

5: Would I want to be BTL? Interesting question. If I got in at the right time (ie right at the bottom), I would consider it - it can be a good investment vehicle, but I really have no burning desire to spend my life sorting out plumbing / heating / drainage problems if I can make a similar return elsewhere!

In summary, I do not want to stitch myself up when I am young!!!

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The BF and I earn just over £50K between us and the average house price in NI is £215K. I can't afford to buy even with him - what if we wanted children??? Paying that kind of mortgage on one salary???

Why did you not buy last year? You could have had that 'average' house for about £140k - or less than 3 times joint income. That would have been very affordable and not far off the long term average multiple.

I know, you are only paying tuppence a year in rent for a mansion at the moment, but is it really a bargain, when you could have bought last year and have a comfortable 70k cushion of equity now?

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It shouldn't be surprising that highly skilled, well educated people with very well paid jobs are also the people who properly understand the nature of asset bubbles, inflation risks, etc, etc.

your right, it isn't but then I know highly educated friends of mine who know nothing about how the economy works and if I was to try and explain they would spout off the usual bullish aruguments, forgetting the most imporant aspect of: Inflation isn't good for anyone in the long term and will only foster greed and resentment.

But then you'd be suprised how many people don't understand a basic concept like inflation...

As for me? I was lucky enough to meet someone who taught me all of this and I have made every effort since to try and understand as much as possible about it- but then people are often unwilling to learn about something they don't want to believe.

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Yes, we will jump in and buy at the trough. Why wouldn't we??? It's called buying low and can mean the difference between a short mortgage and a long one. The difference between working till you drop and retiring early. The difference between seeing your children grow up and not. See, there's a lot more to it than money.

And that's my whole point. Property shouldn't be a about who's lucky enough to buy at the right time (and in this age, you really do only get one chance at that) and those who didn't. It should be about somewhere to live and a choice between buying and renting. The increasing awareness in these matters that the internet driven information trickle-down has brought, means that the property cycle is now much more prolonged, meaning that if you didn't buy between 1996 and 1999, you are pretty much stuffed if you're over 35 and you want to retire early. Couple this with wage suppression through globalisation and you have a "once in a lifetime" scenario that will probably never play out again. Think about it.

Edited by BarrelShifter
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You earn 300k a year...? What kind of job pays that well :blink:

That’s an average of the last 3 years..

Plumbing and Heating contracting to local authorities, they let the council tenants have whatever they demand and don’t quibble about cost.

The money Labour throw at social housing is totally outrageous!

Just for the record I want a home to live in and I never want to be a BTL landlord.

Lots of people on this forum automatically think that if you have a high income that you could just buy anyway and hpc will have no effect, my job is very vulnerable to an economic downturn so there is no way I can commit to a huge mortgage for the next 25 years!

No matter what my income I still want value for money..

PP

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especially as the word in the street is HPC... :huh:

Really? im just seeing prices rising all the time here :huh:

The mortgage on our 3 bed victorian semi is a very reasonable £1500 pm, allowing us to save or overpay the mortgage by at least another £1500 pm. Not all recent buyers are mortgaged to the max!

shh, how dare you go against the resident bears beliefs that we all close to breaking point :P

This topic has changed my view of this site in a big way. I had thought it was full of people who just wanted to be in a position where they could afford somewhere to live, and instead it seems they are mostly very well off people, many of whom will be able to buy a house outright if the market crashes.

Ironically, these people will probably be the new BTL-ers of the future.

When I see salaries of £76K and £300K being posted here, these people obviously don't have money problems. They are just either jealous they didn't buy a load of houses 5 years ago, or greedy people who want the market to crash so they can buy a load of houses and become landlords.

Thank you to the starter of this topic, it has been a real eye opener.

My thoughts exactly - quite a few future bull's in waiting here - kind of a smack in the face to the real ftb bears who just want a property as a home. Sickening <_<

We all want a HPC.

Speak for yourself mr speculator. Current Bulls have a voice on this forum as well ;)

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:lol:

It's government- and law-related. I am far from the top of my salary scale and there are others doing the same job, so the £27K is ok for now. I am guaranteed a pay rise every year. Believe me, there are a fair few people in the world with recession proof jobs - lucky us eh!

As for the 'peppering', I like to think that it's a nice counter balance to Orbital and his risible posts...

Sounds like some sort of CPS job or similar. Bottom rung solicitors dealing with the probabtion service and welfare agencies. This type of crud will get offshored in 10 years, with the decisions made by a handful of qualified people in the UK - which is what happens now.

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Why did you not buy last year? You could have had that 'average' house for about £140k - or less than 3 times joint income. That would have been very affordable and not far off the long term average multiple.

I know, you are only paying tuppence a year in rent for a mansion at the moment, but is it really a bargain, when you could have bought last year and have a comfortable 70k cushion of equity now?

A cushion which will evaporate in the coming HPC.

We didn't buy last year as we had a lot on our minds, I had lost a close family member suddenly and just wasn't thinking about that kind of thing. Timing and all that! But in hindsight I am fine about it.

And that's my whole point. Property shouldn't be a about who's lucky enough to buy at the right time (and in this age, you really do only get one chance at that) and those who didn't. It should be about somewhere to live and a choice between buying and renting. The increasing awareness in these matters that the internet driven information trickle-down has brought, means that the property cycle is now much more prolonged, meaning that if you didn't buy between 1996 and 1999, you are pretty much stuffed if you're over 35 and you want to retire early. Couple this with wage suppression through globalisation and you have a "once in a lifetime" scenario that will probably never play out again. Think about it.

I totally agree that it shouldn't be like that - and wish the boom bust cycle would end. Until it does though, I do intend to buy low and can afford to wait.

Sounds like some sort of CPS job or similar. Bottom rung solicitors dealing with the probabtion service and welfare agencies. This type of crud will get offshored in 10 years, with the decisions made by a handful of qualified people in the UK - which is what happens now.

Wrong, sorry...

Edited by tara747
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Where do you live? Durham

What’s your status (STR, FTB etc)? FTB, have been renting since finishing Uni in 2002.

What do you earn? £30k

I've got a deposit ready of around £28k. I could buy a house just outside Durham, but frankly I don't want to pay £120k for a run down terrace in an ex-mining village with high crime.

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What are you talking about..no way are we gone spent 375k on a shitty little 3 bed semi which needs work :rolleyes: like I said before..I rather leave the country again

Monopoly,

Have you not already decided to move back to Germany after you could not find a school place for your child? Or has the situation changed?

We plan (and always have planned) to move back to Austria in 1-3 years. We never intended to stay in this rainy country for good anyway. With the equity in our property and savings we can (almost) buy a nice house there outright. Out 3-bed flat in London is not bad - if one uses English standards that is. But if one uses Austrian standards it is not so good - it has only 850 square feet, 8' ceilings and a 500 square feet (private) garden. For the same money we could get a detached house in Austria in a nice area with 1800 square feet, 9' ceilings and a 1 acre garden. It is not difficult to decide where we want our baby boy (who is five weeks old today) to grow up....

London is a good place to raise children only if you are a multi millionaire or have 200k+ annual income. A HPC will not significantly change this fact.

LION

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