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Are Immigrants Responsible ?


iluminati

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HOLA441
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HOLA442
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HOLA443
Productivity is falling too.

Something is going seriously wrong.

UK productivity has been significantly lower than all our major competitors since at least the 2nd world war.. By replacing the local uneducated working class with an imported educated temporarily slumming working class they are trying to bring the total level of productivity up. Bit subtle for some. Maybe one of the EE interlopers can explain it to you..

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HOLA444
Guest AuntJess
Too right, the influx of Poles might be the only thing that saves Scotland now :)

I thought it was pretty obvious that I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between the whole of England and the city of Tokyo or NYC! But if you take for example the New York/New Jersey tri-state area and compare that with the South East, you'll see we are not exactly tightly packed. As others have said, Hong Kong or Singapore are better examples from Asia. I happened to pick Tokyo because I've been there and could thus back up my statement with first-hand evidence if required.

This whole business is unscientific, of course. Some people can tolerate - indeed, prefer - life in a densely populated city, while others want more space between themselves and their neighbours. So opinions on overpopulation will vary a lot.

Certainly people will perceive a housing shortage if the available housing does not suit their personal preference for space. In my (admittedly limited) experience, immigrants tend to be less fussy about this and so are probably not net contributors to that effect - often they will just live wherever they have to.

I have noted that the modern business tendency is always to "expand" and that makes all much better...automatically. :) I don't see why applying this rule across the board to every aspect of life is good, unless it is to expand the size of houses built to house families. As another poster inferred, houses here are pokey and garden are risible. Children need space and light to thrive. Cramming in more houses per cubic yard to house an unnecessarily large population is non-productive.

In my professional and personal experience, cramped living conditions are not just deleterious to rats: There are negative outcomes for humans too.

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HOLA445
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HOLA446
I wouldn't go as far as saying quality is improving due to the arrival of Polish builders. However I imagine a large rise in the building labour pool will drive down wage costs. So those indigenous workers now have to work for a lower rate to compete.

I am no architect / surveyor / builder, but have you seen the quality of European house structure? And have you seen cardboard walls in the typical British house???

I agree that wages are becoming competitive, but is that bad thing? Less money, lower affordability, surely it can only bring on lower house prices?

I wish I had a Polish car, then maybe I wouldn't have to pay road tax.

And what is stopping you from going to Poland and getting one?? Flights start at £0.01 on Ryanair. :P Just a word of warning: you can officially use non UK car on UK roads for six months of one year. Another issue is how this is being policed. But that is hardly a fault of non-voters.

Switzerland I assume has an economy similar to that of Britain than to any of the recent members to the EU. Is your work colleague going there to live and compete with the local labour market ? Is he going there to claim the local benefits or eventually get some form of education paid for by the Swiss authorities ?

You can hardly compare Swiss economy with the British one! And for all that local benefits claiming, please, I have not got a penny out of UK's government, paid for my own education here in full and still continue to pay amounts of money in taxes none of you would be embarrassed to admit to. Perhaps its time to start your so called abuse?? Do you want my job so I can go off and start claiming?? But you have to be highly specialised and educated in my field. Are you? Or would you rather have Polish builder’s job?

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HOLA447
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HOLA448
UK productivity has been significantly lower than all our major competitors since at least the 2nd world war.. By replacing the local uneducated working class with an imported educated temporarily slumming working class they are trying to bring the total level of productivity up. Bit subtle for some. Maybe one of the EE interlopers can explain it to you..

Is that what the government is trying to do ? I have never heard any politician say "we are letting people in to increase our productivity". But I would love to see evidence that immigration has improved our productivity.

To be honest I don't think the government meant to let lots of immigrants in, they are just incompetent and too stupid to release the effect of cheap air fares and generous benefits combined.

I know that many immigrants don't get benefits - but many do and many come here for that reason.

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HOLA449
Guest Cletus VanDamme
Im thinking about Scotland

Yes, I'd thought about it, but have noticed, after many visits:

strange native populus especially in the larger cities (bigger drug/violence culture in the southerly cities especially)

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Not just southern cities. Got hassled by various drunks in Inverness recently.

I'd probably go somewhere like Oban.

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HOLA4410
Is that what the government is trying to do ? I have never heard any politician say "we are letting people in to increase our productivity". But I would love to see evidence that immigration has improved our productivity.

To be honest I don't think the government meant to let lots of immigrants in, they are just incompetent and too stupid to release the effect of cheap air fares and generous benefits combined.

I know that many immigrants don't get benefits - but many do and many come here for that reason.

Gordon saying it

http://www.guardian.co.uk/budget2003/story/0,,933491,00.html

"Gordon Brown revealed a US-style blueprint for a more "dynamic and enterprising" Britain yesterday when he announced a shake-up of immigration, venture capital, planning, research and development and welfare to boost productivity, growth and business creation to US levels."

"• more liberal immigration to encourage highly skilled immigrant workers into Britain;"

"America's relatively relaxed laws on legal immigration contributed half a percentage point to US growth in the 1990s, and Mr Brown said it was important to follow the same approach in the UK. David Blunkett would expand the highly skilled migrant programme, encourage foreign students graduating in maths, science and engineering at UK universities to say here to work and grant more permits to combat skill shortages in industries such as construction."

Government saying it

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pbr2002/hmt3.pdf

"The Highly Skilled Migrant Programme will now be extended from January 2003, in view of its success since January 2002. To improve its effectiveness further, the criteria for awarding points in certain categories will be revised from 28 January 2003."

"There is an established relationship between improvements in skills and increased productivity (more details are set out in Developing workforce skills: piloting a new approach, published with Budget 2002). "

"The work permit system allows UK employers to recruit highly skilled staff outside the EEA, if they can show that they have been unable to recruit a suitable

person domestically. Around 140,000 work permits were granted in 2001-02."

More (non GOV sourced) details here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSMP

---

There are numerous examples of others across the world saying the same thing.. Why? Because (in the absence of excessive social problems introduced by the immigration) it’s an obvious truth.. Productivity is the cornerstone of wealth.

Im not sure how you could have missed it..

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HOLA4411
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HOLA4412
Productivity is falling.

Next.

You see the fact that immigration is obviously responsible doesnt necessarily mean that immigrants are responsible. To clarify, it is not their responsibility to stop themselves migrating to this country.

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HOLA4413
I recently visited upstate New York and it's clearly less densely populated than rural England. Houses typically have a acre or more of land and in some towns plots for housing development have a 100ft strip of land left between them so the neighbours aren't too close. Contrast that with English developments where plots are fitted together like jigsaw puzzles!

All the comparisons with Hong Kong or Singapore are inane and stupid. Do those places actually feed themselves?

The UK population density is twice that of China and eight times that of the United States.

Meanwhile Poland is turning into a ghost-country.

This country is over-populated and the sooner the tide is turned the better.

Hah hah, what is your obsession with food/feeding yourself??

We can just buy the damn stuff from abroad.

(unless you think there is going to be a REALLY BIG WAR and we will ALL HAVE TO LIVE OFF THE LAND)

Do you have guns and bombs in your wardrobe for WHEN THAT DAY COMES???

Lol, there are some nutters on this forum

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HOLA4414
Hah hah, what is your obsession with food/feeding yourself??

We can just buy the damn stuff from abroad.

(unless you think there is going to be a REALLY BIG WAR and we will ALL HAVE TO LIVE OFF THE LAND)

Do you have guns and bombs in your wardrobe for WHEN THAT DAY COMES???

Lol, there are some nutters on this forum

Yes we already buy everything from abroad including 82% of our food requirements. The point is there may not be any available for us to buy at the price we can afford.

Food does come from the land so we all do live off it, some of us more indirectly.

The number of people who do not know where much of our food comes is staggering (recent report) many children only know it came from Tescos, Sainsburys etc

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HOLA4415
The UK has always had immigration such as Irish, Afro Caribbean, Indian, Pakistani, Chinese (Hong Kong) and now Eastern Europeans with the odd American here and there too.

Rubbish. Complete rubbish. This is the sort of lie that has been dripfed to the English populace for years by those in power in order to justify the destruction of our society by mass 3rd world immigration.

Well the game is finally up. The English are quickly waking up to reality and won't be taking any more of this cr@p from anyone.

The argument has gone way beyond a piffling sbject such as house prices. We are talking about the destruction of a nation.

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HOLA4416
Productivity is falling.

Next.

A. (w*f replies)

1. Not enough high quality immigrants

2. Online discussion forums are to blame

3. Was improving up until last year

4. The new arrivals have adopted UK culture too quickly

B. (serious reply)

1. The govt. is doing it because they believe it will work... (In reply to iamnumerate)

2. Bigger real falls masked by immigration effect.. (For example of similar effect see Real vs. Nominal)

3. The economic skills base in the UK is being eroded by the widespread anti-science/tech bias..

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HOLA4417
But yet house prices have increased a lot in Poland.. Hmmmm.. :blink:
h\

this is because of British speculators buying off everything they can grab. seriously - the division line is not us-them ie British - EEs but us workers-them owners

you guys seriously need some commie style cleanup. but can your feudal minds grasp it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform

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HOLA4418
Rubbish. Complete rubbish. This is the sort of lie that has been dripfed to the English populace for years by those in power in order to justify the destruction of our society by mass 3rd world immigration.

Well the game is finally up. The English are quickly waking up to reality and won't be taking any more of this cr@p from anyone.

The argument has gone way beyond a piffling sbject such as house prices. We are talking about the destruction of a nation.

Just to show how the feeble minded lack perspective..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_Whites

"In 19th century cartoons, Irish immigrants were

shown as ape-like and as racially different.

During this period of high levels of immigration,

Americans were beginning to consider the theory

of evolution. Scientists, such as James Redfield,

argued that "facial angle" was a sign of

intelligence and character. When they studied the

"physiognomy" or facial structure, or Irishmen,

they detected animalistic qualities.[9] The fact

that such caricatures of Irish people existed,

and were once considered to be "scientifically

accurate" shows how much racial definitions can

change. Few people today think of Irish people as

"not white"or "racially primitive."[10]"

Are the Irish part of the British nation?

Also for that matter, do you live as, lets say a 6th century Englishmen did? Probably not

Is 6th century English (UK) culture destroyed? Or did it become something else, which you incidentally now define as defacto official immutable Brit culture.

Like the report says.. Skills shortage!!!!

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HOLA4419
h\

this is because of British speculators buying off everything they can grab. seriously - the division line is not us-them ie British - EEs but us workers-them owners

you guys seriously need some commie style cleanup. but can your feudal minds grasp it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform

Alex... I’m not in the UK.. And I don’t have a feudal mindset..

Agree with the sentiment though..

I was just demonstrating that population and HPI are not directly correlated..

p.s. You "guys" could do with learning to read before commenting..

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HOLA4420

1) Immigration didn't cause the HPI in the 80's (or any of the other boom's) ..... and it's not the cause now either ..... :rolleyes:

2) Now that the HPC is slowly on its way and the economy will go in to recession ..... all the recent EE's will take their Sterling back home and become Zloty millionaires !! ;)

3) Over the next couple of decades BRICs will become the world's economic (maybe even military) super-powers ..... most of the Latinos/Russians/Indians/Chinese will go back to their native lands where the prospects will be much better ..... :o

Only simpletons who have been brainwashed by the "powers that be" think Immigration is the cause of the property boom, (so that the real causes can be hidden!) ..... but don't wet your pants just yet ..... in a few years the UK will be an immigrant free zone !! B)

Hip Hip Hurray ??? :rolleyes:

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HOLA4421
Guest Magrathea
3. The economic skills base in the UK is being eroded by the widespread anti-science/tech bias..

Yep, the only thing the uk government is encouraging is real estate speculation

People who produce leave, productive business leaves, and the only people who can afford town centre rents are real estate agents and other useless land trough gougers. Then the whole thing goes south

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HOLA4422
People who produce leave, productive business leaves, and the only people who can afford town centre rents are real estate agents and other useless land trough gougers. Then the whole thing goes south

Actually, the whole thing goes north. Property is far too expensive down south. :)

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HOLA4423
Rubbish. Complete rubbish. This is the sort of lie that has been dripfed to the English populace for years by those in power in order to justify the destruction of our society by mass 3rd world immigration.

Well the game is finally up. The English are quickly waking up to reality and won't be taking any more of this cr@p from anyone.

The argument has gone way beyond a piffling sbject such as house prices. We are talking about the destruction of a nation.

Well firstly I am a American, hardly 3rd world unless you come from Kansas. I believe that the overwhelming strength of the UK is is immigrant population over the past 300 years. I watch a programme about the British Raj in India and how he Indians missed the British and vice versa and I thought what would the UK be like without its immigrant population and the fact is there are very few true English People here. Since 1066a lot of so called English are actually Normans from France and Beligium.

We live in a great country and as one of the newest British Citizens with a Colorado accent I am proud to call myself British. It is the best country in the world and I am happy to take the good with the bad and strive the make my home the best I can.

Thank you all you open minded Brits for making this possible.

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HOLA4424
Well firstly I am a American, hardly 3rd world unless you come from Kansas. I believe that the overwhelming strength of the UK is is immigrant population over the past 300 years. I watch a programme about the British Raj in India and how he Indians missed the British and vice versa and I thought what would the UK be like without its immigrant population and the fact is there are very few true English People here. Since 1066a lot of so called English are actually Normans from France and Beligium.

We live in a great country and as one of the newest British Citizens with a Colorado accent I am proud to call myself British. It is the best country in the world and I am happy to take the good with the bad and strive the make my home the best I can.

Thank you all you open minded Brits for making this possible.

You are American, right?

But you are proud to call yourself British?

Why is so many foreign people think they know what is best for "English" people. And note how many dont even live here.

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HOLA4425
You are American, right?

But you are proud to call yourself British?

Why is so many foreign people think they know what is best for "English" people. And note how many dont even live here.

Just makes me laugh/cry it's not like we tell other countries what to do is it. Immigration will become a huge problem as more people lose their jobs.

Happy Worker = Not racist, life is good.

Sacked Worker replaced by cheap imported labour = Will be racist/criminal or classed as one within a split second for complaining (like if you say recycling is bolox)

Sacked Worker replaced by cheap imported labour = Happy accountants and share holders = Continuing the widening of the gap between rich and poor etc..

The point is people are not racist for complaining about the continued efforts of the banks to control them and bleed them dry using imported labour which they cannot compete against. They really expect people just to except these attacks on their way of life quietly? New Labour are playing with fire.

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