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Central London Ea Admits Business "difficult"


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OK. I hang around with a wide range of people from a wide range of backgrounds from south east london council estates to oxbridge graduates working as investment bankers and most of the "rungs" in between.

Do you know what I've found? There are status obsession greedy morons right through the spectrum. Conversely, I know plenty of generous, friendly and people at each level too. I hope I am one.

Andy Jones is a self obsessed idiot not because of the socio-economic level he ascribes himself, but because he's just an idiot and probably would be not matter what his circumstances.

So cut the snobbery and reverse snobbery. It's not doing anyone any credit.

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Deny,

You have been wound up by some fairly crass comments about wealth and salary but your response is loaded with bizarre and unreal stereotypes as those from other people. Do you actually know anyone who works in finance? If you have a maths degree, you could get a City job maybe but if you don't want one fine but why attack those who do? It doesn't sound like you are contributing much to economy at present-it is the City that is paying for the new hospitals, schools etc. that I guess you might use occasionally.

If you get paid very little for a lot of work and you have a proper degree, maybe you should get a better job (plenty

of things not related to finance and all the things you hate) and stop moaning at people who are doing ok for themselves.

S.

I take your point, but

a. I enjoy a good rant, and

b. in the process of 'doing ok for themselves' many of these people have sh1t on me and others, and I take issue with that.

As for contributing nothing to the economy, I get my tit squeezed till its black by Brown just like everyone else. In fact after tax I've barely got enough for the rent. So if you look at the money left after tax, I contribute much more to the economy than the city ever could.

You're wrong about the city, no one would miss it if it got hit by a couple of aircraft. Britain wouldn't grind to a halt. By new hospitals and schools I assume you mean these white elephant PFI deals that exist solely to keep massive government waste OFF its balance sheet, and saddle schools and NHS trusts with massive millstone mortgage payments so that 'frontline' services inevitably have to get cut. Thanks, but the city can keep its contribution.

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Deny wrote I'm capable of much more, but wouldn't waste them on you

I bet you are. I bet you're so clever that you use an internet message board to make threats against people which if you carried them out would result in the shortest police investigation of all time followed by an open and shut case of premeditation.

If you fancy your chances I'll be stumbling out of Ricky Steins about midnight. Bring your imaginary mates.

ANDY

Ha ha, you wish you were worth it!

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I take your point, but

a. I enjoy a good rant, and

b. in the process of 'doing ok for themselves' many of these people have sh1t on me and others, and I take issue with that.

As for contributing nothing to the economy, I get my tit squeezed till its black by Brown just like everyone else. In fact after tax I've barely got enough for the rent. So if you look at the money left after tax, I contribute much more to the economy than the city ever could.

You're wrong about the city, no one would miss it if it got hit by a couple of aircraft. Britain wouldn't grind to a halt. By new hospitals and schools I assume you mean these white elephant PFI deals that exist solely to keep massive government waste OFF its balance sheet, and saddle schools and NHS trusts with massive millstone mortgage payments so that 'frontline' services inevitably have to get cut. Thanks, but the city can keep its contribution.

Deny,

It is easy for you to say "the City can keep its contribution", "not in your name" etc but where do you actually think the money to run the country comes from? Not from the corpse of our manufacturing industry (sadly), maybe a bit from the service industries but both are very much at risk from cheaper alternatives in India and China. When you say no one would miss the City, you mean you would not miss it (you do not speak for anyone else necessarily) because you hate all those people you do not know but actually if the City's tax revenues were removed, I think you might miss it.

I agree there are faults with PFI et al but I was talking more generally about tax revenue to pay nurses, doctors, teachers, the police and other public workers who actually contribute to the country.

S.

Edited by Scooter
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Without the vast armies of wage slaves to prop them up, these £100k a year plus monkeys would be NOTHING. Ultimately othing gets done without graft. I have a 2.1 in Maths (gizza job!), but I live in Devon, work to live, and have always hated the idea of commercialism (basically the pursuit of money). Consequently I have had to work a lot of hours for little pay to put food on the table and a roof over my head, having to put up with management pricks in fancy suits talking buzzword b0ll0cks, imposing their ideas and gobsh1te on me so that they can pay me less to produce more, then they take the credit for it. Not one has ever had the slightest inkling of what real graft is, because they've never done it.

And its all these management tools that have stolen any chance of me ever owning a house where I live, because of their greed and stupidity.

You come across as a very bitter little man, Deny

Ask yourself why the "management pricks" are able to trample all over you.

And what on earth makes you think your "right" :blink: to own a home has been stolen?

You really need to stop being one of life's losers :rolleyes:

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Why belittle and patronise me , Europa? I don't need you explaining to me the way things are, I'm not thick. I recognise that I have principles that prevent me from trampling on others. I'm not competitive, just honest. I just want my own home for my family and a modest life, economical and ecological. I'm not driven by the urge to screw someone else over to better myself. Unfortunately that attitude gets you trampled on by others.

I fundamentally believe that affordable shelter of your own is a NEED, never mind a right. I don't know how people who buy up houses and make money out of it by denying others a basic need get to sleep at night. Conscience and compassion are in far too short supply.

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Why belittle and patronise me , Europa? I don't need you explaining to me the way things are, I'm not thick. I recognise that I have principles that prevent me from trampling on others. I'm not competitive, just honest. I just want my own home for my family and a modest life, economical and ecological. I'm not driven by the urge to screw someone else over to better myself. Unfortunately that attitude gets you trampled on by others.

I fundamentally believe that affordable shelter of your own is a NEED, never mind a right. I don't know how people who buy up houses and make money out of it by denying others a basic need get to sleep at night. Conscience and compassion are in far too short supply.

Agree Deny,

Shelter is a human right, like water and food. It's just that too many fu*king idiots only think about how much of an investment everything is.

Capitalism gone bad - won't last much longer however.

The trouble with the 80's filofax brigade is that they think money buys them decency and respect. Wrong. Money just makes them more corrupt and greedy.

Some of the Thatcher lovers on here think that they actually matter in the grand scheme of things and are better, more upright citizens because they have a few bob. :lol::lol::lol:

The UK is turning into a tragic laughing stock full of selfish trash.

It's good there are still a few humans left among the animals who believe in something other than a new fitted kitchen or Audi S4. :rolleyes:

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Why belittle and patronise me , Europa? I don't need you explaining to me the way things are, I'm not thick. I recognise that I have principles that prevent me from trampling on others. I'm not competitive, just honest. I just want my own home for my family and a modest life, economical and ecological. I'm not driven by the urge to screw someone else over to better myself. Unfortunately that attitude gets you trampled on by others.

I fundamentally believe that affordable shelter of your own is a NEED, never mind a right. I don't know how people who buy up houses and make money out of it by denying others a basic need get to sleep at night. Conscience and compassion are in far too short supply.

The world you describe sounds wonderful - most people (myself included) would like the home and family life without the need for competition. The reality is that Utopia was an ideal, rather than a realistic aspiration.

We do live in a competitive society; the fact is that other people are also competing for the home you want for your family. I honestly believe you have to fight (although perhaps not literally) for the things you want. The harder you push, the more your family will benefit.

As you say, the alternative is to be trampled. Would winning against those "management pricks" really compromise your principles?

Apologies if the above sounds patronising; it is more a statement of my views than a lecture. :)

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The world you describe sounds wonderful - most people (myself included) would like the home and family life without the need for competition. The reality is that Utopia was an ideal, rather than a realistic aspiration.

We do live in a competitive society; the fact is that other people are also competing for the home you want for your family. I honestly believe you have to fight (although perhaps not literally) for the things you want. The harder you push, the more your family will benefit.

As you say, the alternative is to be trampled. Would winning against those "management pricks" really compromise your principles?

Apologies if the above sounds patronising; it is more a statement of my views than a lecture. :)

Trouble is, with pr!cks like lovely Andy about, it makes it rather easy to hate the over-paid.

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QUOTE(Scooter @ Jun 5 2007, 10:19 AM)

London can and will fall IMHO...

imo it wont.

To much money around here for that to happen is the near future. London is till affordable to allot of Londoners.

If you notice Scooter's opinion was his honest one, yours could have been you dis-honest or silly one as you didnt specify. How many types of opinion can people have? I notice some people like to give their personal one which is very nice, wonder what an un-personal one is like?

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Deny,

It is easy for you to say "the City can keep its contribution", "not in your name" etc but where do you actually think the money to run the country comes from? Not from the corpse of our manufacturing industry (sadly), maybe a bit from the service industries but both are very much at risk from cheaper alternatives in India and China. When you say no one would miss the City, you mean you would not miss it (you do not speak for anyone else necessarily) because you hate all those people you do not know but actually if the City's tax revenues were removed, I think you might miss it.

I agree there are faults with PFI et al but I was talking more generally about tax revenue to pay nurses, doctors, teachers, the police and other public workers who actually contribute to the country.

S.

City provides about 3% of GDP and most of that ends up in the pockets of a small number who dodge tax on it to their hearts ' content.

The City would not be missed. GDP may go down, but quality of life would probably improve for the typical Londoner.

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The City would not be missed. GDP may go down, but quality of life would probably improve for the typical Londoner.

So all those people in high end retail, car salesmen, property maintenance, garages, shops, service providers to the 'City' folk would just find someone else would they, let alone all those suppliers to the City who employ lots of people - be they printers, couriers, document storage, IT, sales, photocopiers, taxis, meals, furniture, temp staff, tube drivers, bus dirvers, street cleaners - it's an ENORMOUS enterprise is feeding the City with what it needs to generate money - it would put (I suggest) a million out of work in London if the City went (with all the follow on jobs).

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So all those people in high end retail, car salesmen, property maintenance, garages, shops, service providers to the 'City' folk would just find someone else would they, let alone all those suppliers to the City who employ lots of people - be they printers, couriers, document storage, IT, sales, photocopiers, taxis, meals, furniture, temp staff, tube drivers, bus dirvers, street cleaners - it's an ENORMOUS enterprise is feeding the City with what it needs to generate money - it would put (I suggest) a million out of work in London if the City went (with all the follow on jobs).

With the City gone house prices and commercial rents would be much lower allowing the vacuum to be at least partially filled (and probably completely filled) by new businesses which are not viable at current overhead rates, but which would provide sustainable work for a larger number of people. Result = higher quality of life for most people living and working in London.

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With the City gone house prices and commercial rents would be much lower allowing the vacuum to be at least partially filled (and probably completely filled) by new businesses which are not viable at current overhead rates, but which would provide sustainable work for a larger number of people. Result = higher quality of life for most people living and working in London.

And what would be left after the bomb went off and the City went - how would any of those firms still be in business and how would the banks not already own all of the assets as they had called default and enforced their security ?

and pray tell, what would those businesses do ? Would they employ all of the displaced people at the wages that the City pays them (not the plutocrats and shysters as everyone seems to think), but the secretaries, office juniors etc. The City is a huge boon to the UK, it generates a huge amount of tax revenues and it's what pays for so much ancillary work at good money that then gets spent elsewhere in the country.

Do you seriously think losing the foremost international financial market place in the world would be a good thing for London and the UK ? That really is surprising.

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And what would be left after the bomb went off and the City went - how would any of those firms still be in business and how would the banks not already own all of the assets as they had called default and enforced their security ?

and pray tell, what would those businesses do ? Would they employ all of the displaced people at the wages that the City pays them (not the plutocrats and shysters as everyone seems to think), but the secretaries, office juniors etc. The City is a huge boon to the UK, it generates a huge amount of tax revenues and it's what pays for so much ancillary work at good money that then gets spent elsewhere in the country.

Obviously it's unlikely that the City could disappear overnight, so there isn't much point in discussing that. The transition would take place over many years (I'm sure it will one day) so there wouldn't be an implosion. Lower business overheads and lower wages for secretaries etc would mean that businesses would be more competitive in a global market. Lower house prices would allow people to accept lower wages.

Do you seriously think losing the foremost international financial market place in the world would be a good thing for London and the UK ? That really is surprising.

Yes. Most cities I have lived in or visited do not have "foremost international financial market places" and have a lesser gap between rich and poor, better quality of life and more contented populations.

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And therefore you think most of these people have accents and elitist attitude. I also agree there are a lot of smart people who don't chase money - and given the socially beneficial stuff a lot of them do, thank God for that.

However, the City is not just well connected people taking advantage whilst they can.

I am a not thick (I think) transactional lawyer. I do have my straight As from when it was worth something, my Oxbridge degree in a real subject and 10 years experience doing international corporate finance and private equity. Do I have a posh accent, you'd only think so if you were from Barnsley or Skelmersdale, my dad's from a council estate and my mum's from an immigrant miner's family. Does that make me a lapdog at the table of the idle rich, or just a tool of their tyranny.

£150K jobs do not grow on trees, they never did, but the money is there and the market's global, not just London - I could off to the Middle East, Hong Kong or Tokyo and [probably] up my net income significantly, they are crying out for people - or are all of them going to die on their @rses too ?

Did you do transactional or dealing work or were you IT or support/back office - that makes a world of difference to your perceptions of what people do and what they are worth ?

As for believing hype, I prefer to think I am not believing the hype AND not deluding myself as to where it will go (unlike a number of people here who are to an extent living in cloud cuckoo land).

Ah the vanglorious attitude, the cornerstone of sucess as a city worker. Let's dispense with the fluff and actually define what you do. Your job is to write contracts that protect the interests of the party you are representing. Corporate law never has been and never shall be the nexus of human acheivement, and the joke of it all is that much of the legalese placed into contracts is to protect your clients from other greedy lawyers. It's an elaborate protection racket. You must be deeply naive if you think that in a heavy global recession there are going to be plush city jobs in abundance. City workers are very well paid for one reason and one reason only, proximity to the money supply. Take all the fiat money slushing around out the equation and a 'transactional lawyer' would be earning a hell of a lot less.

BTW, Oxbridge? If you are going to make a big deal of the institution at which you studied why not simply state it, rather than using a very naff portmanteau?

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Come down my local spouting [email protected] like that and I guarantee someone will knock your teeth out.

£100k is an OBSCENE amount of money, and no amount of graft justifies such a ridiculous wage.

I'd be delighted with a £22k wage for my job, it'd be a 5 grand payrise for a start! Although Brown would just rob it all.

Don't sweat it. Andy Jones is a known troll who lives in a fantasy land where he's an airline pilot, international playboy, businessman and spy (I made the last one up)

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So, if you are responsible for making sure, say the pension fund of 400,000 people (and their families) is invested properly or if you are the person who makes the decision that could put your firm under (with say 20,000 employees and their families onto the dole), you think they should be paid £25K a year (or whatever).

£100K is £5,600 a month net, give or take. I am not sure you have any experience of the stress and hassle people have to go through to get it (note, I am not saying people who don't earn that don't have lots of stress too), the hours that tend to have to go in, the 3 years plus of vocational study when they are not earning, the years of working 70 hours plus a week for basic wages. Do you think it's just all Gordon Gekko and a night in Boujis (godawful tacky place that it is) country ? The money is as much payment for the sacrifices you make, the 2am phone calls, the all nighters in the office, the cancelling holidays to go to work as you are packing your case for a family holiday, the weekends you could not make plans for as it is about paying for your abilities to do the job better than most - many people simply won't show that level of commitment (it's just a job) and if their job does not require special (relatively rare) skillsets or experience to do it, I am afraid they won't get the money. It's selling your soul now to secure your and your family's future (there are rare people who get it spot on, the money and the family life, but they are fairly few and far between).

You may be delighted with £22K for your job, but I suggest you don't work or have to be committed to half the hours a week say an investment banker does and you don't have to be 'available for work' all the time (save for being on the odd standby or being a fireman etc. (which are relatively unusual circs)).

When I worked for £4 an hour, the people I worked with had the same mentality - I work for my wages and nothing more and I will do it till I am 65 - none of them thought anyone else deserved more - I sat there thinking, God get me out of here, let me push myself, I am only here to fund next year at university...

As for £100K not being a lot, it's good money, BUT it's not excessive, particularly given the number of joke public sector jobs that are getting up and around this figure (especially with pensions chucked in) with far less accountability. If the people make the money, pay them the money. If they don't, they are out on their jacksy, with no unionised protection or layers of bureaucracy to protect them.

This would be the guy who invests the pension and gets paid regardless? Shall we discuss the reality that fund managers in most case add ZERO value and in others actually lose money?

Edited by BoomBoom
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