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We suppose to be talking about Housing issues not about Immigration/race. This is all turning very nasty.

Remember guys the housing problem is not just affecting to so called White population, this is affecting almost everybody, does not matter what background you are from.

There are many hard-working professional workers (black/asian/white/other) who unable to get there foot on the property ladder. We should all work together in trying to get this problem sorted out, instead of slaggin each other off.

I used to enjoying reading the forums on this website and found it very useful, but not anymore !! :(

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Hey Sonny stick around.

Race is massively emotive especially when combined with immigration, I agree that we should avoid it; and theres no middle ground. One persons mild observation is anothers evil racist attack, or liberal myopic sell out.

Only a very few threads go as badly as yeterday, and when it starts its not worth continuing reading that thread because everyones made their mind up and they're not going to change it. There are only a few posters who really keep it going, and over 1000 memebers!

Lets read and contribute to HPC threads.... viva la crash

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Tell that to the people who decides who qualifies for housing renovation grants in the Belgrave area of Leicester or them who decide just who’s a key worker (Money for votes Scam) . Tell that to HMG who floods the place with cheap labour.

No it is not a level playing field :angry:

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This is all turning very nasty.

There are many hard-working professional workers (black/asian/white/other) who unable to get there foot on the property ladder. We should all work together in trying to get this problem sorted out, instead of slaggin each other off.

I agree that we should avoid it; and theres no middle ground.

....

Only a very few threads go as badly as yeterday,...

Don’t be so sensitive.. Let both sides air their (hopefully logical) views.. If that is what they think it is better that they get their views in the open. The problems will not simply go away by virtue of us (on both sides of the argument) ignoring it. I am not English and personally don’t give a d*mn about if someone is racist or not. I do not deny people the right to be racist! That is their choice. Actions based on those feelings should be justified -> and hence the discourse. The usual UK solution when faced with being direct about a REAL problem is "not to talk about it". You despise the crap that politicians (i.e. embodied by the so called "Bliar") feed you and yet deny others the right to say what they truly feel. I suspect that Tony Blair would be out of a Job if he said what he really thought about any of the major issues (Iraq, Poverty, Education, Immigration, Economy). It seems that people are more interested in hearing what they “want to hear†as opposed to hearing what people really think. Let us use the cloak of anonymity that the Internet affords to at least allow people to openly air their views rather than apply unnecessary censorship.

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It wasn't that bad a thread either. Most people were more alarmed about the levels of welfarism among people who were born here, rather than a knee-jerk reluctance for further immigration.

Agree with wuluf, better out than in.

One of the good things about this site is the honesty. Too many people in this country think that because their house is worth a lot, everything's OK in the world. The major problem with pensions, and the fact that FTBers are priced out, actually point to the not insignificant problems that are before us...

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The trouble is that we need MORE immigration, but the economic illiteracy (and racism in many cases) of the general population means that politicians cannot admit this.

Its a shame - as everyone would benefit from more immigration. Same thing with free trade - a potent mix of economic illiteracy and racism/nationalism blinds people to the fact that these things are not zero sum games.

:blink:

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Wuluf I totally agree! We may not have agreed on many issues yesterday but we certainly agreed that people should be allowed to air openly thier logical view and have it argued for and against by others. I for one enjoyed the discussusion and was given a lot to think about by the excellent point made by Wuluf and the like.

Other threads end up going on about what shares to buy and what bonds make for best investment, these topics have as much to do with the HPC than immigration does but these issues do not interest me (I haven;t got enough money to worry about them). However I just choose to not read the thread, I suggest other do the same if they are uninterested in the topic, rather than the rest of us not talk about it.

Appologise that it ended up the topic on more than one thread but that was by accident.

(on the verge of starting another debate there Bubble Trouble, some of us would disagree, as we pounted out yesterday the economic benifits are unproved and questionable and the irroding social effect is yet unmeasured and in my opinion totally under-estimated. But lets not talk about it, maybe the problem -if there is one- will go away by itself )

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Guest wrongmove
Wuluf I totally agree! We may not have agreed on many issues yesterday but we certainly agreed that people should be allowed to air openly thier logical view and have it argued for and against by others. I for one enjoyed the discussusion and was given a lot to think about by the excellent point made by Wuluf and the like.

Totally agree. I would add that immigration affect the fundamentals of housing in terms of demand for both rental and OO properties. It affects wage levels, which are fundamental according to many here.

I personally tend to the pro-immigration side, but I want to hear all the views. Many arguments/discussions begin with a "thesis" vs a "antithesis", and by airing both sides, maybe a "synthesis" can emerge. There are usually valid points on both sides, and bogus ones. But if both sides stay in denial of the others views, then views will erupt eventually, with no chance of discovering common ground (all IMHO, of course)

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I am all for free speech as a general principle, and although I have a strong distaste for a lot of the anti-immigration views espoused on this board, I wouldn't want a ban on sensible discussions re immigration issues.

At the same time there are a few people who have posted on the board who evidently hold views that are not just anti-immigration, but anti-immigrant, and in some cases racist.

To such people I would suggest they keep such hatred to themselves. If they are unable to, I'm sure the BNP has a website where racist bile can be vented.

Let's keep HPC a non-racist site.

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Who was it that said...

"I may not agree with what you say but I'd die to defend your right to say it!"

Whoever it was must be turning in their grave because the lefties are dancing right above him!

You people who abelieve that people who have racist views should be shund/ingnored/shut up you are just as facsist and sickening as the BNP nuts who go **** bashing.

Why can;t anyone else but me (it feels anyway) realise that the way the is left controling people's thoughts/actions/beliefs is far more dangerous than any of the right wing parties or media.

The left is (through pollical correctness, unelected pressure groups, silly sh1t-for-brains do-gooders and all those 2nd/3rd/4th chance -lets understand the criminal/benifit cheat/sex offender/drunk driving murderer) just as facsist as the right. You want everone to think how you think, what is next, concentration camps for people who don't believe as you do? Or at best you pigeon hole anyone that is "in your opinion" racist and that way you don;t have to listen to anything they say.

Freedom of speach, freedom of the press, freedom to express your own views without fear of persecussion... The left wouldn;t know it if it bit it in the **** with my nan's dentures in!

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Guest wrongmove
I am all for free speech as a general principle, and although I have a strong distaste for a lot of the anti-immigration views espoused on this board, I wouldn't want a ban on sensible discussions re immigration issues.

At the same time there are a few people who have posted on the board who evidently hold views that are not just anti-immigration, but anti-immigrant, and in some cases racist.

To such people I would suggest they keep such hatred to themselves. If they are unable to, I'm sure the BNP has a website where racist bile can be vented.

Let's keep HPC a non-racist site.

Hear hear !!

I am also pro-immigration, but sometime, even mentioning immigration is deemed racist by some posters (not Yonmon). There is no place for "rascist bile" anywhere, IMHO. In fact inciting racial hatred is quite rightly illegal.

However discussions about immigration based on facts and genuine observations, rather than prejudice and xenophobia, have a place here, as they do relate to HP fundamentals. This is clearly a very emotive issue, and discussion will help to lower the temperature a bit, and perhaps kill off some of the more blinkered views on both sides.

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Guest wrongmove
Who was it that said...

"I may not agree with what you say but I'd die to defend your right to say it!"

Whoever it was must be turning in their grave because the lefties are dancing right above him!

You people who abelieve that people who have racist views should be shund/ingnored/shut up you are just as facsist and sickening as the BNP nuts who go **** bashing.

Why can;t anyone else but me (it feels anyway) realise that the way the is left controling people's thoughts/actions/beliefs is far more dangerous than any of the right wing parties or media.

The left is (through pollical correctness, unelected pressure groups, silly sh1t-for-brains do-gooders and all those 2nd/3rd/4th chance -lets understand the criminal/benifit cheat/sex offender/drunk driving murderer) just as facsist as the right. You want everone to think how you think, what is next, concentration camps for people who don't believe as you do? Or at best you pigeon hole anyone that is "in your opinion" racist and that way you don;t have to listen to anything they say.

Freedom of speach, freedom of the press, freedom to express your own views without fear of persecussion... The left wouldn;t know it if it bit it in the **** with my nan's dentures in!

Everyone has a right to their opinion Raven. Invective doesn't really move things forward very much.

Have you ever considered that a healthy society actually requires a blend of views ? Perhaps no one side should ever actually "win". Perhaps the diversity and tension between the views is what keeps society as a whole somewhere near a happy median...?

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Everyone has a right to their opinion Raven. Invective doesn't really move things forward very much.

Have you ever considered that a healthy society actually requires a blend of views ? Perhaps no one side should ever actually "win". Perhaps the diversity and tension between the views is what keeps society as a whole somewhere near a happy median...?

Pity the current Government isn't very balanced!!

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- Raven

Just who do you mean by "the left" or "lefties". You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about them. Just as "the right" covers abroad spectrum of political views from the mainstream to the extremes, so does the left - and the majority of each are not on the extremes. If you are referring to people who IYHO are "overly-politically correct thought-policers" then fine, defend your opinion. But just labelling them as "the left" is not fair on the many other normal rational fair people who just happen to have more left facing views than yourself. If you want to make a meaningfull discussion, know your enemy properly.

And whilst I'm in rant mode (this is to both sides)...I believe people should be allowed to air their views (any views) without fear of censorship. This is called debate. That said, idlying bandying around words like "racist", "facist" or "Nazi" when they really aren't appropriate just demeans the words, demeans the words meanings and makes everyone just a little more relaxed about them and their meaning, which makes them just a little more likely to be actually exercised unchallenged.

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wrongmove you've missed the point completely!!!!!

This point I'm making there are NO balenced views out there, you can make comments as far left as you like (or hide behind religion or an ethnic background -trust me on this it seems the world still hasn;t woken up to the fact that you can be ethnic and still be racist) to say contriversial or bigoted things. But get a normal white working class bloke letting someone know that he doesn;t think he would like more foreigners in this country (no matter how logically he puts his arguement) and he is burnt at the stake for being a racist. There is no opinion except the political correct, facsist left wing opinion and if you think that free discussion exists in this country your a more deluded fool than kirsty asllop.

If only the world was made up of more people like Wuluf we'd be able to discuss thing and stop things getting to boing point. Because at the moment we are on our way to serious problems unless we startblistening to people gripes.

As for your distaste for racist views i entirely agree. But I find a great deal of the left b\/llsh1t that is spoited in the press distasteful and dangerous.

If only people would actually think freely instead of just assuming they do because they are politcally correct and disagreed with the war in iraq.

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Just whow do you mean by "the left" or "lefties". You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about them. Just as "the right" covers abroad spectrum of political views from the mainstream to the extremes, so does the left - and the majority of each are not on the extremes.

Point taken Firetruck, I appologise, you are totally right. I have a bee it's a bit too big and buzzes every now and then. I also appologise for not using IMHO, I will in future because I've just worked out what it means.

Let me to clarify my stance. i think that the unelected pressure groups have put pressure on goverment and social opinion which has swung the "centre" of politics too far to the liberal end of the spectrum. This has made debate of some topic impossible because of the hysteria that is produced whenever a less liberal idea is aired (ie. Cutting down on immigration especially but also tough sentices for criminals tougher dicipline in schools etc).

Issues should be allowed to be aired in a grwon up manner and discussion MUST be open and free from interferance by anyone. I believe IMHO that free speach doesn;t mean that in the world today.

Hope I've cleared some this up, sorry if I got into a rant but it does get to me when people try to tell others what to think. Whether left or right.

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The people who turn it into race issues are the loony lefties. Immigration at todays level has an impact on housing however big or small. The debate shouldn't be allowed to be stifled by the lefts false accusations.

I have conculded to even respond to people who call you racist (like Yomon) for posting is a waste of energy when you put forth immigration stats etc.. You should just ignore them and get on with it - most people who read this BBS are intelligent enough to understand what all this extra demand does to the market.

With the current flows of immigration, and little additional stock planned or created beforehand, there is cause and effect on houseprices.

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The people who turn it into race issues are the loony lefties. Immigration at todays level has an impact on housing however big or small. The debate shouldn't be allowed to be stifled by the lefts false accusations.

But Simon calling them loonies is much the same thing as them calling you Nazi's it's an attempt to persuade people that their argument is without merit just by name calling. Please explain why you think they are loonies if you must call them names.

Japhy

ps Good post Raven

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Being anti-racism doesn't make one a loony lefty.

I'm "right-wing" on most things, and have even been slagged off as "a true blue thatcher boy" on HPC in the past.

There is no contradiction to believing in freedom and market economics and being opposed to racism. Indeed I believe passionately that a free society can thrive only against a background of racial equality and tolerance.

Oh, and the quote from Raven is attributed to Voltaire, but apparently he never said it. Great man though, but would you believe it, he was French. Good grief, a johnny foreigner eh?

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The trouble is that we need MORE immigration, but the economic illiteracy (and racism in many cases) of the general population means that politicians cannot admit this.

Its a shame - as everyone would benefit from more immigration. Same thing with free trade - a potent mix of economic illiteracy and racism/nationalism blinds people to the fact that these things are not zero sum games.

:blink:

Sez you ! You keep spouting on about economic illiteracy. Does this mean that you have an education and have come around to the OPINION that Milton Friedman is the be all and end all? You do not like my free for all position therefore you are illiterate.

Bring in cheap labour and exploit them. Undercut wages and hope that the supply teachers in London can speak a dozen or so different languages. Er, um, yes the market, er, freedom yes freedom for the market at all costs. That's it end of story.

Such vision and hope for mankind.

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Guest pioneer31

I think a lot of people don't even understand the term.

Persecuting a particular section of society(e.g. Negros) IS racism

Opposing immigration is an economical consideration and NOT racism.

Do you think Australia are racist? After all they put all sorts of barriers in the way of potential immigrants (many more than us)

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Guest wrongmove
wrongmove you've missed the point completely!!!!!

This  point I'm making there are NO balenced views out there, you can make comments as far left as you like  (or hide behind religion or an ethnic background -trust me on this it seems the world still hasn;t woken up to the fact that you can be ethnic and still be racist) to say contriversial or bigoted things. But get a normal white working class bloke letting someone know that he doesn;t think he would like more foreigners in this country (no matter how logically he puts his arguement) and he is burnt at the stake for being a racist. There is no opinion except the political correct, facsist left wing opinion and if you think that free discussion exists in this country your a more deluded fool than kirsty asllop.

If only the world was made up of more people like Wuluf we'd be able to discuss thing and stop things getting to boing point. Because at the moment we are on our way to serious problems unless we startblistening to people gripes.

As for your distaste for racist views i entirely agree. But I find a great deal of the left b\/llsh1t that is spoited in the press distasteful and dangerous.

If only people would actually think freely instead of just assuming they do because they are politcally correct and disagreed with the war in iraq.

But Raven, you starting point for discussion seems to be "political correct, facsist left wing opinion ", "left b\/llsh1t that is spoited in the press ". You are denying that some views hold any value at all. That means there is no point in even starting a discussion.

What makes you think the press is left wing ? You just mean left of you. The "Torygraph", Times and Mail make up a large chunk of the readership. The Guardian and Mirror are the only overtly left wing papers.

We know that you don't want any more immigration. We know that this is not because of rascism. We know you hate people with left-wing views.

But what do you suggest is done about ?

Do you want to stop the legal immigration that is used to fill the skills gap in UK ?

Do you wish to turn away legitimate refugees ?

Do you want to clamp down on illegal immigration ?

Do you want to stop English people emigrating ?

Which part of immigration is it you think should be tackled, and why ?

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Do you want to stop the legal immigration that is used to fill the skills gap in UK ?

Which vital skills gaps are these? Cant we start by looking to the millions on sick / unemployement benefit for training before nicking educated people from parts of the world THAT REALLY NEED THEM, or is it so vital for selfish UK to act as a parasite on the developing world?

Shame

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  • 439 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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