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Manchester - U K's Second City


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Manc is now officially the country's second city - sporting prowess, a white hot music scene and the latest casino triumph sees Birmingham toppled as the UK's top provincial city

BBC Link

Maybe they trying to make Manchester look cool to try and encourage the BBC workers to relocate to Manc from the SE.

"The estimated population for Manchester in 2005 was 441,000 while more than one million people live in the Midlands city."

441k? But Bradford is 480k, Leeds 750k. I think with Manc they don't always include areas like Stockport, Salford, Oldham etc, but i would call them Manc, and this would then mean that the population would be over a million

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Maybe they trying to make Manchester look cool to try and encourage the BBC workers to relocate to Manc from the SE.

"The estimated population for Manchester in 2005 was 441,000 while more than one million people live in the Midlands city."

441k? But Bradford is 480k, Leeds 750k. I think with Manc they don't always include areas like Stockport, Salford, Oldham etc, but i would call them Manc, and this would then mean that the population would be over a million

Indeed, this is a standard and long-known problem in geography - within what boundaries do you count populations etc.

Funnily enough people have degrees in this stuff, and then know-it-all (not) journos come along and make sweeping statements. Indeed, the funny thing about the population count for Manchester is that in practical terms it underestimates it by about 50% - that is it considers unitary legal boundaries and not population-statistic boundaries. Anyone who's been there (predumably not including this BBC journo) whould be able to tell that Manc has a bigger pop than 450,000.

wikipedia - Modifiable areal unit problem - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modifiable_Areal_Unit_Problem

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Indeed, this is a standard and long-known problem in geography - within what boundaries do you count populations etc.

Funnily enough people have degrees in this stuff, and then know-it-all (not) journos come along and make sweeping statements. Indeed, the funny thing about the population count for Manchester is that in practical terms it underestimates it by about 50% - that is it considers unitary legal boundaries and not population-statistic boundaries. Anyone who's been there (predumably not including this BBC journo) whould be able to tell that Manc has a bigger pop than 450,000.

wikipedia - Modifiable areal unit problem - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modifiable_Areal_Unit_Problem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester

Greater Manchester Urban area has a population of 2.24million (less than the West Midlands though)

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Manc is now officially the country's second city - sporting prowess, a white hot music scene and the latest casino triumph sees Birmingham toppled as the UK's top provincial city

BBC Link

I like Manchester A LOT!!! But I don't see how those reasons suddenly make it the second city though, both cities have their good and bad points, and both have a great deal of history, but i would say for the past few hundred years birmingham has been the more important City! Since the industrial revolution began, Birmingham was the workshop of the world, the city of a thousand trades.

Those days have sadly gone, and Manchester has gained alot of ground, but I wouldnt write Birmingham of yet, there are massive plans for Birmingham, and in 10 years time I think it will be back up there has the second city in most peoples eyes.

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I like Manchester A LOT!!! But I don't see how those reasons suddenly make it the second city though, both cities have their good and bad points, and both have a great deal of history, but i would say for the past few hundred years birmingham has been the more important City! Since the industrial revolution began, Birmingham was the workshop of the world, the city of a thousand trades.

Those days have sadly gone, and Manchester has gained alot of ground, but I wouldnt write Birmingham of yet, there are massive plans for Birmingham, and in 10 years time I think it will be back up there has the second city in most peoples eyes.

Manchester was the first industrialed city in the world, directly inspiring Karl Marx through his visits to his mate Engels, to view capitalism as exploiting the masses. I disagree with Marx' conclusions (obviously) but Manc was never in Birmingham's shadow so far as I am aware in the industrial age. First major civil rights demonstration - Peterloo Masacre in what is now St Peters Square, 1819

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Peterloo

it's getting into semantics a bit as I'm sure Birmingham's fab too, but Manchester has done the post industrial thing far better than any other regional large English city, so far as I am aware.

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Manchester was the first industrialed city in the world, directly inspiring Karl Marx through his visits to his mate Engels, to view capitalism as exploiting the masses. I disagree with Marx' conclusions (obviously) but Manc was never in Birmingham's shadow so far as I am aware in the industrial age. First major civil rights demonstration - Peterloo Masacre in what is now St Peters Square, 1819

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Peterloo

it's getting into semantics a bit as I'm sure Birmingham's fab too, but Manchester has done the post industrial thing far better than any other regional large English city, so far as I am aware.

yes, I am aware of Karl Marx visiting Manchester and the result of it, and maybe Manchester was the first industrialised city, but it was soon eclipsed by Birmingham, which I quote of wikipedia :

'The city's reputation was forged as a powerhouse of the Industrial Revolution in Britain, a fact which led to Birmingham being known as "the workshop of the world" or the "city of a thousand trades"'

and Birmingham had groups such as ' the Lunar Society of Birmingham which flourished from 1765 to 1809. Its members were exceptional in that they were among the very few who were conscious that an industrial revolution was then taking place in Britain.[18] They actively worked as a group to encourage it, not least by investing in it and conducting scientific experiments which led to innovative products such as the invention of commercial gas lighting and turning the steam engine into the powerplant of the Industrial era'.

The members of the Lunar Society were very influential in Britain. Amongst those who attended meetings more or less regularly were Matthew Boulton, Erasmus Darwin, Samuel Galton Junior, James Keir, Joseph Priestley, Josiah Wedgwood, James Watt, John Whitehurst and William Withering.

More peripheral characters and correspondents included Sir Richard Arkwright, John Baskerville, Thomas Beddoes, Thomas Day, Richard Lovell Edgeworth, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Anna Seward, William Small, John Smeaton, Thomas Wedgwood, John Wilkinson, Joseph Wright, James Wyatt, Samuel Wyatt.

Antoine Lavoisier frequently corresponded with various members of the group, as did Benjamin Franklin, who also visited them in Birmingham on several occasions.

This is all in the past though, during the war both cities were badly bombed, Birmingham had money after the war and cleared and rebuilt many parts of the city paving the way for its ugly image years later. Where as manchester did not have the money and was left with a lot of vacant industrial buildings, the same buildings which have lead to its regeneration years later.

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yes, I am aware of Karl Marx visiting Manchester and the result of it, and maybe Manchester was the first industrialised city, but it was soon eclipsed by Birmingham, which I quote of wikipedia :

'The city's reputation was forged as a powerhouse of the Industrial Revolution in Britain, a fact which led to Birmingham being known as "the workshop of the world" or the "city of a thousand trades"'

and Birmingham had groups such as ' the Lunar Society of Birmingham which flourished from 1765 to 1809. Its members were exceptional in that they were among the very few who were conscious that an industrial revolution was then taking place in Britain.[18] They actively worked as a group to encourage it, not least by investing in it and conducting scientific experiments which led to innovative products such as the invention of commercial gas lighting and turning the steam engine into the powerplant of the Industrial era'.

The members of the Lunar Society were very influential in Britain. Amongst those who attended meetings more or less regularly were Matthew Boulton, Erasmus Darwin, Samuel Galton Junior, James Keir, Joseph Priestley, Josiah Wedgwood, James Watt, John Whitehurst and William Withering.

More peripheral characters and correspondents included Sir Richard Arkwright, John Baskerville, Thomas Beddoes, Thomas Day, Richard Lovell Edgeworth, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Anna Seward, William Small, John Smeaton, Thomas Wedgwood, John Wilkinson, Joseph Wright, James Wyatt, Samuel Wyatt.

Antoine Lavoisier frequently corresponded with various members of the group, as did Benjamin Franklin, who also visited them in Birmingham on several occasions.

This is all in the past though, during the war both cities were badly bombed, Birmingham had money after the war and cleared and rebuilt many parts of the city paving the way for its ugly image years later. Where as manchester did not have the money and was left with a lot of vacant industrial buildings, the same buildings which have lead to its regeneration years later.

ooh, obviosuly completely off topic now, I grant Birmingham its success, but the city that gave us the Sufrragettes, the Guardian, first passenger railway, the Manchester Ship Canal (ocean going ships 30 miles inland - that really annoyed the liverpudlians), first civic university (20 years before Birmingham Uni) etc can hardly be deemed to have been eclipsed. So far as I can see the two wikipedia articles neither place one above the other, there is some interesting contrast, and I'm not placing Manc above Brum - I just don't see how you can be so sure that "i would say for the past few hundred years birmingham has been the more important City! " Mancehster had more limited trades as it was more automated and Brum had more smaller factories, as would make sense from Manchester's proximity to the port of Liverpool and cotton, combined with the hydraulic head of streams off the pennines and a lack of moral political direction to protect the masses, and Birmingham's to the broad UK economy at the centre of the canal network and traditional trades. I feel that the industrial revolution would have been massively different without either of them, the only other cities I could say that about being, probably, London and Bristol (I'm from Liverpool originally myself so I hope I'm being reasonably unbiased!)

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Guest Bart of Darkness
Quote "Manchester is thought to be England's second most important city ahead of Birmingham, a BBC survey has found.

It's official! How can a survey of 1000 people make it official? And they are from Manchester!

We asked 100 people in Manchester to name Britain's second city. Our survey said....

famfortune6.jpg

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If we ignore population, then there are many potential candidates for Britain's second city. How about Liverpool, Cardiff, Edinburgh or Glasgow? Historically speaking, Canterbury, York and Bristol have been pretty strong contenders, too. Let's face it, neither Manchester nor Birmingham would win any beauty contents.

Whichever way you look at it, though, (metropolitan county or city council boundaries), Birmingham is the UK's second city by population and at least that's an objective, rather than subjective measure.

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  • 4 weeks later...
If we ignore population, then there are many potential candidates for Britain's second city. How about Liverpool, Cardiff, Edinburgh or Glasgow? Historically speaking, Canterbury, York and Bristol have been pretty strong contenders, too. Let's face it, neither Manchester nor Birmingham would win any beauty contents.

Whichever way you look at it, though, (metropolitan county or city council boundaries), Birmingham is the UK's second city by population and at least that's an objective, rather than subjective measure.

"metropolitan county or city council boundaries" aren't rational measures, the BBC's quote that manc has a pop of 440,000 and brum 1,000,000 is based on SUBJECTIVE governmental boundaries. An attempt to objectively measure practical conurbation sizes, puts manc at 2.24mil and brum at 2.28 mil, citing wikipedia again - interesting quote:

"Although the exact boundaries of any conurbation are open to debate, dependent on what criteria are used to determine where an urban area ceases, the Office for National Statistics defines the West Midlands Urban Area as including the urban areas (in decreasing size) of Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Dudley, and Walsall amongst others. "

it says something similar about measuring Manc's urban area

So whichever way you look at it, Brum is bigger, I'd have to agree

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