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Btl - Brightons Troubled Landlords


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The only thing that can be delaying panic selling is a conspiracy of silence by vested interests. This would make a good story for a national paper.

If this is happening in Brighton, it is almost certainly happening in London.

I tend to think that a mentality exists at the moment where BTL investors believe that it doesnt matter too much if they aren't renting their properties out because of the growth in capital of around £2k a month. They don't mind paying £12k a year in interest when they are being told their property has increased by £24k. This is the real conspiracy. I read in the Argus before Xmas that Hove prices had increased by more than 10%. This kind of headline keeps "investors" diving in without any thought for the long term consequences should they not be able to rent or need to sell or god forbid prices actually start going down.

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Guest Yeahbutnocrash
Very good post adibrown

Assuming your observations are correct, it would appear that Brighton is beyond the point of no return and has embarked on full blown property crash. The future looks like one of collapsing rents and evaporating capital values.

The only thing that can be delaying panic selling is a conspiracy of silence by vested interests. This would make a good story for a national paper.

If this is happening in Brighton, it is almost certainly happening in London.

If these properties are the wrong type ie. too expensive and not in demand how is that going to impact the rest of the market?

Hardly at all IMO

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If these properties are the wrong type ie. too expensive and not in demand how is that going to impact the rest of the market?

Hardly at all IMO

Substitution of preferences -- people who might otherwise buy a 3-bed house but only need one or two beds will buy a 2-bed flat instead if the price falls. In time, the price of the 3-bed houses comes down because of the drop in demand. As the price differential increases, more people become willing to accept a substitute (2-bed flat rather than 3-bed house). That's how I've always understood it, anyway, though I've always disagreed with people who say that football fans will go to opera if they can no longer afford football but can afford opera ...

BE

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Me too but somehow the party rages on.

I got burned on a newbuild B2L in 2004. Even now the prices are still lower than I paid. The problem as usual was an oversupply of newbuild all at once, yet at the same time academics on R4 keep spouting we have a shortage - how, where?

And yet the "Media" still spins the endless cr@p about prices only going up........ It's pathetic.

Was watching "Working Lunch" yesterday - and there - a guy was saying do NOT invest in property - it's a long gradual slope downwards as from now..... and they just did NOT want to talk about this at any length -- the programme interviewers/presenters STILL tried to talk property up --- it's so obvious they have a vested interest in property....

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A very good post indeed.

The weakness in the BTL flats market will eventually feed through to larger property as well. Also on top of that I see that the local Council have just changed all the school catchment areas in Brighton & Hove so anyone who stretched to buy a family home near a good state school may well already be looking at a loss if their house is now redefined as being in the catchment area of a bad school.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/localnews/d...hment_plans.php

Edited by Wad
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A very good post indeed.

The weakness in the BTL flats market will eventually feed through to larger property as well. Also on top of that I see that the local Council have just changed all the school catchment areas in Brighton & Hove so anyone who stretched to buy a family home near a good state school may well already be looking at a loss if their house is now redefined as being in the catchment area of a bad school.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/localnews/d...hment_plans.php

The hype will come now at 300% - just watch...

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A very good post indeed.

The weakness in the BTL flats market will eventually feed through to larger property as well. Also on top of that I see that the local Council have just changed all the school catchment areas in Brighton & Hove so anyone who stretched to buy a family home near a good state school may well already be looking at a loss if their house is now redefined as being in the catchment area of a bad school.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/localnews/d...hment_plans.php

some seriously pi**ed off people in Withdean now. Great council idea to jumble up the catchment areas.

It is also near impossible to get a BTL property with the current rental coverage dictated by lenders in Brighton. BTL that is propping up the entire market is looking shaky

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If these properties are the wrong type ie. too expensive and not in demand how is that going to impact the rest of the market?

Hardly at all IMO

I think you are right. They are the wrong type (i.e. too expensive). The whole country is full to the gills with the 'wrong type' of houses.

It is not going to impact the rest of the market. It is a symptom, not a cause. The fact that a fashionable and desirable town like Brighton is in difficulties makes one suspect that problems exist in other fashionable and desirable places (e.g. London).

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I think you are right. They are the wrong type (i.e. too expensive). The whole country is full to the gills with the 'wrong type' of houses.

It is not going to impact the rest of the market. It is a symptom, not a cause. The fact that a fashionable and desirable town like Brighton is in difficulties makes one suspect that problems exist in other fashionable and desirable places (e.g. London).

You can bet your Granny --- the VI PR Machine is being swung into action at full throttle -- they will be desperately papering over any story that is bearish - and pumping out the Bull Drivel...

Edited by eric pebble
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Went to hand in my notice on my flat in Brighton yesterday. Walked into the Letting Agents and handed in my letter. Agents face went grey, asked me to sit down for a minute as he was just making a call and he headed into the backroom. Came out 5 minutes later and asked me if I would reconsider if he could get a reduction in the rent. I had made my mind up and it wasn't for financial reasons but I decided to listen to what he had to say. Agent told me LL was willing to drop the rent to £1000 a month as I was a good tenant (Have only been there 5 months - currently paying £1200pcm on a £300k flat). I told the agent that it was a generous offer but that I had already made my mind up and I was moving. Agent told me that LL was worried because it had taken 4 months to let beforehand and things now were so much worse. The agent went on to tell me that the recent major new developments in Brighton had flooded the market with rental properties. Told me that City Point alone he had 20+ flats standing empty, Avalon Development phase one 15+ still remained and phase 2 was just coming to completion so anticipated another 20+ from that. There are 5 now with my one coming back on now available in my development of 20. So that means 25% of the building just lying empty. The agent told me that his personal problems stemmed from the numbers of LL's ringing him every day frustrated at the lack of interest. It was common place now for LL's to put their property on with 5 or 6 agents in frustration and this was making things confusing and causing conflicts.

For those wanting evidence of the problems in Brighton I can point you to my old flat. It is the penthouse in Argus Lofts, Robert Street. 2 Bedrooms 2 bathrooms with a massive 1500 square metre roof terrace (yes metres not feet). The terrace has views over the city past the pavillion and to the sea. It is by all means a highly desirable property (It even has a 7 foot cinema screen included in the price). I rented this for 7 months at £1300 a month. The property was supposedly valued at £400k+ so not bad rent.

Anyway this amazing flat was advertised a month before I moved out so started being marketed in August 2006. It is still lying available 6 months down the line and for the same rent it was being marketed for when I came along last January. This is a flat that would have been snapped up a few years ago but now just lies abandoned for half a year possibly longer.

So basically these are my thoughts:

Brighton has a vast oversupply of rental properties

Brighton has an ever growing number of property for sale (Rightmove now shows 1500+ properties for sale between 225k and 250k)

Brighton New Build Developments are struggling (Clock Tower - All remain unsold/Avalon Phase one -40% properties still remain unsold - marketed in 2005/City Point Phase 3 - Sales say 50%+ still up for grabs)

If we have a problem with Supply and Demand as we have been led to believe then how come hundreds of properties lie empty across Brighton. Surely the rental market would be flooded with tenants and property would be in short supply.

The BTL market in Brighton must be purely driven by Capital Gains because voids and low yields are common place. That means any sign of HPC will create almost instant havoc.

One final point that makes me chuckle. I was in the Avalon showroom(researching and baiting the sales staff) when in walked a middle aged couple. He was obviously brimming with self importance and so much so that the sales woman asked to be excused from what she obviously realised was our dead end conversation and go and fawn all over him. He immediately announced that he was a "Property Investor" all the way from London and his wife beamed with pride. I would have put money on him having a 4x4 parked outside. Anyway he got into this conversation about how the BTL market was all about picking location and how he was special because he researched the locations and how easy it would be to resell etc. How other Investors would fail because they had bought into bad developments etc. He then went on to say that he was interested in Avalon because his research had shown that Brighton was a Rental Mecca and the shortage of good rental property meant that he would never be short of tenants.......I didnt have the heart to tell him that I had been following about 10 properties in Avalon still untouched from June 2006. I am sure the sales woman didnt tell him about the trouble they are having in trying to get rid of the first phase still.

This made me think about how blind these "Property Investors" must be and how many other "Dead Certs" this guy had already bought into. His research was obviously taken from VI Spin. What he really needed to do was talk to my landlord or my neighbour or even my ex landlord and see how much of a rental mecca Brighton actually is before he invested his £300k. Of course had he walked into my Letting Agent yesterday he would have been greeted with a broad smile and an assurance that everything was just fantastic.

Just bumped into an old pal who now lives in Brighton -- he tells me it is meltdown for BTLers now - Brighton awash with badly built cr*p - no one wants to rent it - unless it goes for tuppence ha'penny!!! Tee hee!!!!!

Edited by eric pebble
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some seriously pi**ed off people in Withdean now. Great council idea to jumble up the catchment areas.

Surely that will knock down prices in some areas (potentially negative equity for very recent purchasers), but consequently add value to properties in other areas. I remember my parents saying a good school can add twenty grand to a house easily...

So if anything this kind of shake-up will freeze activity in one area while energising it in another?

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Surely that will knock down prices in some areas (potentially negative equity for very recent purchasers), but consequently add value to properties in other areas. I remember my parents saying a good school can add twenty grand to a house easily...

So if anything this kind of shake-up will freeze activity in one area while energising it in another?

It will but as each transaction will require the payment of Stamp Duty and other costs that means equity will be sucked from the market and assuming no new lending the value of houses will have to drop to make up for the costs incurred in moving.

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Thanks for the original post Adi, alot of this thread rings very true ! I've been looking at flats in Brighton since first week of January and most of them have either been empty or had tenants still in them. Alot of them have been small 'top floor' flats, badly converted with night sorage heaters and 80's kitchenettes, a homage to wood chip.. Suffice to say I haven't found anything that I could afford (up to 180k !) that I would actually want to live in, let alone own. However the rental market is a completely different story - plenty of really nice value-for-money properties with many EA's now specialising in Lettings (ie Lampons in St. George's Road). And landlords don't seem to be that picky. Some friends with terrible credit ratings (God bless'em) have just moved into a lovely house very close to Kemp Town, two minutes from the beach, front and back gardens, immaculately presented, Victorian fireplace, all mod cons for ...850 pounds a month or 280 each.

One thing that made me laugh was this ultimate 1.4m pound batchelor pad....

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-574...=3&tr_t=buy

Is it just me or does anyone else find it just a little bit tacky ? Can't help feeling it should come with a leopard print thong and a years supply of fake tan and blonde highlights... oh yeah, and I seem to remember it costing for 1.5m pounds just five weeks ago... Any takers ?

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Surely that will knock down prices in some areas (potentially negative equity for very recent purchasers), but consequently add value to properties in other areas. I remember my parents saying a good school can add twenty grand to a house easily...

So if anything this kind of shake-up will freeze activity in one area while energising it in another?

Maybe. They've changed catchment areas but the most important change is on how they prioritize places. Previously it was who lived the closest to the school, but now it is a lottery within the catchment area. So by buying a house next to a good school you aren't guaranteeing anything. This should at least even prices out over the catchment area, but may cause an over all drop as people may not like to pay a premium only to get a chance of getting into a good school.

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Thanks for the original post Adi, alot of this thread rings very true ! I've been looking at flats in Brighton since first week of January and most of them have either been empty or had tenants still in them. Alot of them have been small 'top floor' flats, badly converted with night sorage heaters and 80's kitchenettes, a homage to wood chip.. Suffice to say I haven't found anything that I could afford (up to 180k !) that I would actually want to live in, let alone own. However the rental market is a completely different story - plenty of really nice value-for-money properties with many EA's now specialising in Lettings (ie Lampons in St. George's Road). And landlords don't seem to be that picky. Some friends with terrible credit ratings (God bless'em) have just moved into a lovely house very close to Kemp Town, two minutes from the beach, front and back gardens, immaculately presented, Victorian fireplace, all mod cons for ...850 pounds a month or 280 each.

One thing that made me laugh was this ultimate 1.4m pound batchelor pad....

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-574...=3&tr_t=buy

Is it just me or does anyone else find it just a little bit tacky ? Can't help feeling it should come with a leopard print thong and a years supply of fake tan and blonde highlights... oh yeah, and I seem to remember it costing for 1.5m pounds just five weeks ago... Any takers ?

Integrated B&O, WOW!!!!!!!! and nice cutlery set. Like the frosted glass bathroom cup with the gold thing on aswell.

Wheres the jacuzzi though?.

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I think it is on the corner of Mincing Lane.

Problem with Brighton is the every expects everything, but know one has any money.

My friend runs a letting agency and properties are sitting empty or getting squated.

Edited by 234SALE
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IS THAT 1.4 M PROPERTY The one above the sports shops on north street? Bet it gets nice and noisy there at night

It is above La Tosca the Tapas place. I actually went to look around this property 2 years ago. It was on the market for £695k or £2000 a month rent. It had been up on the market already for 5 months without any interest. It was featured in the Argus as at the time it was the most expensive flat in Brighton. The woman who owns it is a young Iranian woman and was completely unrealsitic. I decided against renting or buying as I didnt think it was worth it. In my opinion it was all fur coat and no knickers.

So the last I heard this woman had moved in after a year of it lying empty. It looks as though she has put some furniture in and doubled the value. I know what she is doing though. When I went to see it she said "We are expecting it to appeal to a footballer or perhaps an actor or singer or city gent from London looking for a crash pad in Brighton".

Of course there is one born every minute or so they say so you will inevitably over the next 6 months find some lottery winner or footballer with more money than sense.

£850,000 in 2 years though without any physical alterations to the flat seems outrageous to me.

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Bit more Hove interest:

My Mum just had both her places valued. She will problem move into the one bed flat and sell her house.

The three bed semi up near the Grenadier has been 'valued' by the estate agent at £360k and the one bed flat has been 'valued ' at £170k.

I think the house should be about £150k but hey.

This really goes to show it cant crash enough for me I thought it would be valued for about 250k or £1k a month IO. Coz thats what it would rent for. £360k is absurd.

Now the flat is virtually the smallest rsidence you can have and an IO would be £716 to actually buy that would be £1030 at 5.25.

How can your average £20k earning person buy that. It rents for £600.

Thanks for listening

dred :)

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Thanks for the original post Adi, alot of this thread rings very true ! I've been looking at flats in Brighton since first week of January and most of them have either been empty or had tenants still in them. Alot of them have been small 'top floor' flats, badly converted with night sorage heaters and 80's kitchenettes, a homage to wood chip.. Suffice to say I haven't found anything that I could afford (up to 180k !) that I would actually want to live in, let alone own. However the rental market is a completely different story - plenty of really nice value-for-money properties with many EA's now specialising in Lettings (ie Lampons in St. George's Road). And landlords don't seem to be that picky. Some friends with terrible credit ratings (God bless'em) have just moved into a lovely house very close to Kemp Town, two minutes from the beach, front and back gardens, immaculately presented, Victorian fireplace, all mod cons for ...850 pounds a month or 280 each.

One thing that made me laugh was this ultimate 1.4m pound batchelor pad....

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-574...=3&tr_t=buy

Is it just me or does anyone else find it just a little bit tacky ? Can't help feeling it should come with a leopard print thong and a years supply of fake tan and blonde highlights... oh yeah, and I seem to remember it costing for 1.5m pounds just five weeks ago... Any takers ?

Love the gold Versace logo on the bathroom mirror. Jesus.

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So the last I heard this woman had moved in after a year of it lying empty. It looks as though she has put some furniture in and doubled the value. I know what she is doing though. When I went to see it she said "We are expecting it to appeal to a footballer or perhaps an actor or singer or city gent from London looking for a crash pad in Brighton".

That would explain all the flat, mirrored surfaces then ! :rolleyes:

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So the last I heard this woman had moved in after a year of it lying empty. It looks as though she has put some furniture in and doubled the value. I know what she is doing though. When I went to see it she said "We are expecting it to appeal to a footballer or perhaps an actor or singer or city gent from London looking for a crash pad in Brighton".

Would that be a footballer without a car.......I take it there is no parking space?

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Guest Yeahbutnocrash

Just had a look on rightmove for Brighton & Hove

112 properties were added in the last 24 hours! (of which 3 are sold)

330 properties were added in the last 7 days (of which 23 sold)

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  • 439 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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      • down 5% +
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