"good Time To Be A Graduate"

[chandellina]

I thought the article presented a very limited picture of the working life of graduates.

To start, it has never been unusual for graduates to work at lowly-paid or low status jobs straight out of uni. Even traditional degree subjects don't necessarily have a straightforward career path and many graduates don't really have a clue what they even would like to do.

However if you look at the longer term work experience of graduates, I would wager that the majority do end up in jobs requiring or preferring university qualifications within a few years - and certainly make more money over the duration of their careers than non-graduates.

My own experience: one year post - uni I worked as a record store manager, the same job I had during my last year of university. I then moved on to six months in a clothing store before finally landing a "graduate" job as a receptionist at a publishing house (with even worse pay than working in retail). But once in a profession, I quickly became a marketing manager, doubling my salary within three years.

I know many graduates with similar career trajectories.

Also, I contest that student debt is debilitating. For one thing, it is a fact for better or worse that many students are subsidised by their parents during and after university. But even with no outside help, it certainly is possible to pay off student loans, particularly with zero interest.

there is plenty of whining about student loans and I can only direct the complainers' attention to the U.S., where student grin and bear it and just get on with paying them back. (at often hefty rates of interest too.)

[Dicky]

University of Birmingham

University of Bristol

University of Cambridge

Cardiff University

University of Edinburgh

University of Glasgow

Imperial College of Science, Technology & Medicine

King's College London

University of Leeds

University of Liverpool

London School of Economics & Political Science

University of Manchester

University of Newcastle upon Tyne

University of Nottingham

University of Oxford

University of Sheffield

University of Southampton

University of Warwick

University College London

Not trying to be Elitist but how did Sheffield and Nottingham slip in there.

[CrashedOutAndBurned]

chandelina's partially right.

I think some graduates take a while to wake up and realise that finding a job is rather different to applying to uni and are not prepared for the sheer slog. Many, I feel, are also shocked and amazed that their degree does not always allow them to get away from the kinds of work they did part time aged 17. Indeed, some friends are now in 'graduate level' roles after years of trying to shape a career in the way chandellina describes. Trouble is, they may by then be in their late twenties and still on less than 18k.

Also this 'carve out a career' approach utterly favours those from affulent backgrounds. In book publishing, it's now typical for little Sophia the stock broker's sprog to work for six months unpaid to gain 'experience'. Less affluent kids do not have this luxury as they need some sort of constant income. Of course, publishing has a glamour image, but given time I'm sure there'll be people working for free to land the most mundane graduate jobs in all sectors.

[Gwailo]

Thank God I am not a graduate.

A graduate would:

leave university in a mountain of debt.

have no prospect of getting a decent job to pay off the debt and thus save

will never have the prospect of buying thier own place

have to pay vast amounts in tax to pay for pensions and healthcare to the retiring baby boomers (half of which will be on Govt. pensions which are fixed income schemes paid directly from taxpayers)

have to pay vast amounts of salary into a pension for the "privelige" or retiring at 70+

The whole thing is a timebomb ready to go off.  There's just too few young people to support current and future pensioners in this country and trying to financially crush the existing graduates isn't going to be the biggest incentive for them to have families of their own so either immigration has to take up the slack (can you see the Daily Express generation going for that???!!) or the whole thing collapses.

I think now is the best time to be a retired homeowning baby boomer on thier public-services pension.

If I were in my 20s I would very seriously consider leaving and moving abroad.  Poor buggers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Basically, this is one (older) generation taxing the other (younger) generation.

It is probably not deliberate, but the end result is the same.

The best thing do to is to study Chinese (Mandarin) at University and upon graduation........head east and find work in the People's Republic!

(There are tons of jobs here for someone who is a 'Native' English speaker who has a good command of Mandarin).

[Dicky]

Trouble is, they may by then be in their late twenties and still on less than 18k.

Should have done Engineering, the course may have been 30 hours a week as opposed to 6 hours for Humanaites or Life of the Dong Beetle studies but most Engineers in their late twenties are on at least 2 times that figure.

[TWOPEY]

If you went into a room of 4 people and they all applied for one office job, say data entry clerk, and it comprised of:

1. A graduate in Media

2. A school leaver with 5 A-C grade GCSEs,

3. A college leaver with 3 A-Levels,

4. A school drop out wtih no GCSES grade A-C, but had worked on a restaurant as a waiter for 2 years

No. 1 would fair better than 2 and 3,and maybe 4

Maybe , but no's 2 ,3 and 4 would probably be cheaper....

[CrashedOutAndBurned]

Why would they be cheaper? No one pays you more for having a degree, although many people assume that this is the case.

Many people study for Master's degrees to put themselves ahead of the pack, but are dissapointed to find they get paid the same as those with only first degrees, and still have to start in dogsbody roles.

For data entry, I'd go for 4. if they could type. The more you have engaged in mentally stimulating learning, the harder it is to suddenly do mindless work. I was far better able to cope with mindless work as a teen than a graduate.

[TWOPEY]

Why would they be cheaper? No one pays you more for having a degree, although many people assume that this is the case.

COAB

My thinking is that the job advert would have "salary ; negotiable"

Whos salary expectations would be the lowest at the interview ?..

If its more of a question of who could actually do the job then its a 4 way tie for me.

[Casual Observer]

Why would they be cheaper? No one pays you more for having a degree, although many people assume that this is the case.

Many people study for Master's degrees to put themselves ahead of the pack, but are dissapointed to find they get paid the same as those with only first degrees, and still have to start in dogsbody roles.

For data entry, I'd go for 4. if they could type. The more you have engaged in mentally stimulating learning, the harder it is to suddenly do mindless work. I was far better able to cope with mindless work as a teen than a graduate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In my (cynical) opinion many people go for Masters Degrees to mask a poor class of Honours degree (2.2 or 3)!

[zzg113]

student loans, particularly with zero interest.

Chandellina, you show how out-of-touch you are with this comment. Student loans currently charge around 3% interest. This is by no means a market rate, but is not "zero" either.

I can only direct the complainers' attention to the U.S., where student grin and bear it and just get on with paying them back.

So because the situation is even worse in the US, that makes it OK here?

[SHERWICK]

mask a poor class of Honours degree (2.2 or 3)!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I got a 2.2 in Economics from a crap university (University of East London) back in 1992. I had no clue what I wanted to do/become, and no interest in studying whatsoever. However, now I know more about economics than my girlfriend, who has a First Class Honors in Economics from UC Berkeley in the US (ranked 2nd in the world in front of Oxford, Cambridge and LSE http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/3982113.stm) and she now works at LSE. Additionally I am currently studying (part-time) for an MBA in one of the UK's top business schools. How one performs in an undergrad has little relationship to a person's potential in my opinion. Why do we expect 18 year olds to know what they want to do for the rest of their lives? I have to say, however, that this country did little to transform me - I spent 6 years in the USA (Silicon Valley, San Franciso, Boston and New York) between 1996 and 2002, and working there gave me the confidence and (more importantly) the opportunity to push myself as far as I possibly could - which I have done ever since. If this country actually encouraged entrepreneurship instead of things like gambling (no taxes), and if bank managers and potential investors could understand a business plan that didn't involve property, and invest accordingly, then we might have a future. However, you go to someone here with a novel business plan and they usually stare at you with a blank face - in the USA you have all the support and more to take it to market, go public and go global. Here: it makes more sense to spend your money on gambling and houses...

[OnlyMe]

SHERWICK,

How true, too much power in the hands of a few very dumb banks who have little spirit but know how to screw a few shillings out of debtors - of which they create many by manipulating people's main outgoing in this country - housing.

[Guest pioneer31]

there is plenty of whining about student loans and I can only direct the complainers' attention to the U.S., where student grin and bear it and just get on with paying them back. (at often hefty rates of interest too.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People in the US and enjoy a higher standard of living than we do in the UK.

My cousin has moved there and says in retrospect that Britain is one big rip-off

[Guest pioneer31]

How one performs in an undergrad has little relationship to a person's potential in my opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this is certainly true, not least because degrees aren't fairly assessed like say A levels are.

I know a 2:2 who can run rings round her fellow 2:1's in her teaching profession (they still can't grasp the hard bits of their subject, let alone teach them). She missed a 2:1 by a whisker (god knows how) and as a result has been unfairly excluded from applying for certain professions.

Sherwicks statement is also true because one's ability, potential and willingness to work hard is not all summed up in a degree.

[Sold up and Renting Abroad]

This is a brilliant thread !

I agree with most of what's been said (appart from the 2:2 degree people getting Master's to hide the poor degree - a 2:2 isn't poor).

Having been to a good university myself (and got a 2:2 in Civil Eng.) I can't say that Engineering actually pays well - all the Engineers I knew were piss poor which is why I never went into it upon graduation (I got into computers instead - far more lucrative but also far more boring).

"Back in my day...." the career guidance was crap (what career guidance ?) - by sheer luck I found my niche. I think that today, the shift is to get as many people through 'University' - the system's been dumbed down for that purpose.

As someone else once said on here (not this thread) - I would never advise anyone to go to University unless the work they wanted to get into absolutely depended on it. Far better to go into the outside world and get yourself some experience in as many different fields as you can to get an idea of what you'll enjoy.

Finally, in my experience, the USA is far far better at sorting out it's youth in terms of career guidance.

And I agree 100% with ShERWICK. Yes, UK Banks - VERY BLANK LOOKS !!

[Guest pioneer31]

A degree doesnt give you the right for a job automatically, thats well paid.

It just gives you the skills that may or may not be useful.

If you went into a room of 4 people and they all applied for one office job, say data entry clerk, and it comprised of:

1. A graduate in Media

2. A school leaver with 5 A-C grade GCSEs,

3. A college leaver with 3 A-Levels,

4. A school drop out wtih no GCSES grade A-C, but had worked on a restaurant as a waiter for 2 years

No. 1 would fair better than 2 and 3,and maybe 4 because the at least one of the basic qualifications (maths, english, science) to get into university are already covered somewhere, even in the softest of subjects. No. 4 would be in a good stance because they had already become a dependable worker and it could come down to interview answering technique (vs No.1)

No one said a degree would guarantee a high paid job - but at least you get one...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would pick no.3 first ....because A levels (and GCSE's) are assessed nationally. Everyone sits the same exam and they are blind marked. There is much less scope for favouritism or cheating.

A degree from Uni X can be rather different from Uni Y. The lecturer marks your work. Much of it is coursework, copying is rife and goes undetected and if the lecturer particularly likes you it's high marks all round

A degree can be entered without any decent quals - the ones that are always 'A level equivalent' but aren't really.

WHat is a shame about Uni grads is that some are really good and some are really bad.........and the system fails to make a clear dictinction between them. So a duffer from Uni X works somewhere and the boss assumes that all grads are that crap.

[SHERWICK]

I forgot to mention that I also failed my A levels (after getting 10 O levels in 1983)!

The truth is that I just couldn't be bothered to apply myself to anything (and remember my education was funded by British taxpayers!)... until I went and lived in the US when I was 30 and discovered what I could achieve with focus, hard work etc.

I do agree that A levels WERE a better indication (of potential/ability etc.), but I'm not sure if that's true anymore...

[Guest pioneer31]

I forgot to mention that I also failed my A levels (after getting 10 O levels in 1983)!

The truth is that I just couldn't be bothered to apply myself to anything (and remember my education was funded by British taxpayers!)... until I went and lived in the US when I was 30 and discovered what I could achieve with focus, hard work etc.

I do agree that A levels WERE a better indication (of potential/ability etc.), but I'm not sure if that's true anymore...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well since they've tinkered about with them (introduced coursework, the cheats favourite) no, I think they're probably not that great anymore.

[zzg113]

I do agree that A levels WERE a better indication (of potential/ability etc.),

Sherwick, by that rationale, your A-level results indicated that you were utterly lacking in both.

[Sold up and Renting Abroad]

SHERWICK,

I've recently spent 6 weeks at a foreign language institute - learning a new language. I'm living abroad and the school consisted of many Americans and some British all of us learning our foreign language.

I am embarrassed to admit that the English students there were an embarrassment compared to the American students.

The American students were so with it, knew what they wanted to go for, were so much mature. Some of them already had what I'd call high powered jobs (had Masters degrees already and also had worked for several years in top, top financial institutions). They also looked fit and healthy, took care of their appearance, very presentable etc etc etc.

In comparison the UK students were quite immature, looked less fit and healthy, quite scruffy and hadn't a clue why they'd chosen their course or what they wanted to do at the end of it.

In fact one of the brighter US students told me about a UK guy she befriended and was amazed that "He hasn't a clue what he wants to do with his life".

Seems like they just wanted to smoke and brag about their Drinking habits

I kid you not - I was quite disappointed.

[zzg113]

In all this America-is-the-most-wonderful-place-on-the-planet-ism, let us not forget that this is the country that invented trailer trash.

SURA, the Americans you met were almost certainly not representative, considering that 70%+ of the US population does not even have a passport.

[Marina]

how does a graduate with a degree in media studies and a minor in golf-course management contribute anything tangible to the economy??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This of course is the real question. There are far too many people working in service and non-productive industries. Sooner or later someone has to create wealth by making something and selling it. We've always had loads of non-productive jobs - but they always used to serve real industries. But as our manufacturing industry has declined our service industries have grown. Get the feeling we are printing money so we can all keep buying services from each other.

[SHERWICK]

Sherwick, by that rationale, your A-level results indicated that you were utterly lacking in both.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly! I got what I deserved, i.e. I failed my A-Levels. However, I got a 2.2 honors with very, VERY little work!

[Sold up and Renting Abroad]

ZZg113,

As far as what the US does for the World, I'm not that keen on the country myself (McDonalds, Jerry Springer etc etc).

However, as far as the individual people I met at that school were concerned - I couldn't fault them.

And another thing - they were SO bright.

BUT - I will admit that ONE girl from the UK made me PROUD to be british (and put everyone to shame - including all those Yanks), though she was from Fulham and had an accent to prove it (so she was hardly representative of the whole of the UK either) !!

[Sold up and Renting Abroad]

Sorry, got sidetracked then, BBB's started his 2005 PM campaign (quite 'white flag' stuff for a change).

Yes BBB I speak 4 languages (soon to be 5). Come and join in the thread - you'll be made welcome