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"good Time To Be A Graduate"


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Doesn't look that good to me, the situation will be worse for graduates once tuition fees are introduced. No wonder FTB's are disappearing.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/new...1382381,00.html

Research reveals harsh reality of life after college

One in three students find themselves in non-graduate jobs

Matthew Taylor, education correspondent

Monday January 3, 2005

The Guardian

More than a third of students who start work when they finish their degree end up in non-graduate jobs, from stacking shelves to answering phones in call centres, according to figures obtained by the Guardian.

Earlier this month, the higher education minister, Kim Howells, declared it was a "good time to be a graduate" after the government published research showing that 93% of students went into full-time employment or education.

But research compiled for the Guardian by the Higher Education Statistics Agency reveals that 38% of those who entered work in 2003 were in "non-graduate" employment six months after finishing their course.

.... continues.

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One in three students find themselves in non-graduate jobs

This statistic doesn't surprise me as 1 in 3 graduates leave university with either degrees in Media studies or pottery what good is that.

While Maths and Science subjects are declining Micky mouse course are mushrooming.

There use to be a time when if you wanted to climb the ladder you had to be better than the guy above you, it seems we now live in a society whereby the guy below is so incompetent at his job that the guy above looks bad and gets fired only to be replaced by the incompetent.

Rant over.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

The Peter Principle is a theory originated by Dr. Laurence J. Peter which states that employees within a hierarchical organization advance to their highest level of competence, are then promoted to a level where they are incompetent, and then stay in that position.

This follows from the use of promotion as a reward for success. As long as a person is competent in his current position, he will be promoted to the next higher one. By iteration, the only way a person can stop being promoted is to reach a level where he is no longer able to do well, and thus does not appear eligible for promotion.

The theory was set out in a humorous style in the book The Peter Principle, first published in 1969. Peter describes the theme of his book as hierarchiology. The central principle is stated in the book as follows:

In a Hierarchy Every Employee Tends to Rise to His Level of Incompetence.

Although written in a lighthearted manner, the book contains many real-world examples and thought-provoking explanations of human behaviour. Similar observations on incompetence can be found in the Dilbert cartoon series (see The Dilbert Principle).

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The government wants more graduates for the right reasons (we need edcucated people to compete with other countries.)...........but just letting people who would have previously left school at 18 get degrees in things like Media Studies is not working....

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This statistic doesn't surprise me as 1 in 3 graduates leave university with either degrees in Media studies or pottery what  good is that.

While Maths and Science subjects are declining Micky mouse course are mushrooming.

I agree entirely. My 2 lads graduated over the last 3 years and got good jobs fairly easily. I know others their ages who graduated in "softer" subjects and who can't get good jobs.

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Thank God I am not a graduate.

A graduate would:

leave university in a mountain of debt.

have no prospect of getting a decent job to pay off the debt and thus save

will never have the prospect of buying thier own place

have to pay vast amounts in tax to pay for pensions and healthcare to the retiring baby boomers (half of which will be on Govt. pensions which are fixed income schemes paid directly from taxpayers)

have to pay vast amounts of salary into a pension for the "privelige" or retiring at 70+

The whole thing is a timebomb ready to go off. There's just too few young people to support current and future pensioners in this country and trying to financially crush the existing graduates isn't going to be the biggest incentive for them to have families of their own so either immigration has to take up the slack (can you see the Daily Express generation going for that???!!) or the whole thing collapses.

I think now is the best time to be a retired homeowning baby boomer on thier public-services pension.

If I were in my 20s I would very seriously consider leaving and moving abroad. Poor buggers.

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Thank God I am not a graduate.

A graduate would:

leave university in a mountain of debt.

have no prospect of getting a decent job to pay off the debt and thus save

will never have the prospect of buying thier own place

have to pay vast amounts in tax to pay for pensions and healthcare to the retiring baby boomers (half of which will be on Govt. pensions which are fixed income schemes paid directly from taxpayers)

have to pay vast amounts of salary into a pension for the "privelige" or retiring at 70+

The whole thing is a timebomb ready to go off.  There's just too few young people to support current and future pensioners in this country and trying to financially crush the existing graduates isn't going to be the biggest incentive for them to have families of their own so either immigration has to take up the slack (can you see the Daily Express generation going for that???!!) or the whole thing collapses.

I think now is the best time to be a retired homeowning baby boomer on thier

public-services pension.

If I were in my 20s I would very seriously consider leaving and moving abroad.  Poor buggers.

I really don't think the graduate thing would be such a problem, provided youngsters realised their potential sensibly. In other words, why do so many want to study for a degree, rather than become tradesmen, like they would have done in the past? If a youngster doesn't think his degree is worth a £10k debt, in terms of his future earning capacity, then they shouldn't be going to university.

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Guest pioneer31

I've been to Uni twice and this is my angle on it.....

1.) There aren't nearly enough graduate jobs around for all the kids leaving college

2.) Not enough people are studying the 'right' subjects

3.) Employers are more interested in experience than quals

4.) The number of subjects worth studying can be counted on one hand

going back to point 3. Learning and education ARE wirth something. there are many thing thats you will never learn on the job. Electronic theory, Mathematics, How to calculate the forces on bridges and structures etc etc.

Uni does have it's place, however point 4 is very relevant I think. 90% of the courses on offer are useless, expensively useless.

and one last thing......the quality of careers advice in this country is appalling. Young people are being misguided and mislead by a bunch of inept twerps.

The blind leading the blind.

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I really don't think the graduate thing would be such a problem, provided youngsters realised their potential sensibly. In other words, why do so many want to study for a degree, rather than become tradesmen, like they would have done in the past? If a youngster doesn't think his degree is worth a £10k debt, in terms of his future earning capacity, then they shouldn't be going to university.

For sure, people go to uni without considering the value that they will gain for their degree but where are the apprenticeships and polytechnic courses that would give them a genuinely useful trade (e.g. plumbers, joiners, electricians, fitters, instrument articifers, etc.) that benefitted themselves and the country. Those got traded in years ago so we could have more "Universities".

The young generation still have a more formidable task ahead though, degree or not simply because the demographics have swung against them and the situation won't change because they are traditionally politically inactive and are a smaller group of people than the pensioners (therefore to politicians, they matter less) so public policy will not reflect their priorities.

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Thank God I am not a graduate.

A graduate would:

leave university in a mountain of debt.

have no prospect of getting a decent job to pay off the debt and thus save

will never have the prospect of buying thier own place

have to pay vast amounts in tax to pay for pensions and healthcare to the retiring baby boomers (half of which will be on Govt. pensions which are fixed income schemes paid directly from taxpayers)

have to pay vast amounts of salary into a pension for the "privelige" or retiring at 70+

The whole thing is a timebomb ready to go off. There's just too few young people to support current and future pensioners in this country and trying to financially crush the existing graduates isn't going to be the biggest incentive for them to have families of their own so either immigration has to take up the slack (can you see the Daily Express generation going for that???!!) or the whole thing collapses.

I think now is the best time to be a retired homeowning baby boomer on thier public-services pension.

If I were in my 20s I would very seriously consider leaving and moving abroad.

Agree 100%.

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Guest pioneer31
The government wants more graduates for the right reasons (we need edcucated people to compete with other countries.)...........but just letting people who would have previously left school at 18 get degrees in things like Media Studies is not working....

it's a good way of covering up the unemployment figures!

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A degree doesnt give you the right for a job automatically, thats well paid.

It just gives you the skills that may or may not be useful.

If you went into a room of 4 people and they all applied for one office job, say data entry clerk, and it comprised of:

1. A graduate in Media

2. A school leaver with 5 A-C grade GCSEs,

3. A college leaver with 3 A-Levels,

4. A school drop out wtih no GCSES grade A-C, but had worked on a restaurant as a waiter for 2 years

No. 1 would fair better than 2 and 3,and maybe 4 because the at least one of the basic qualifications (maths, english, science) to get into university are already covered somewhere, even in the softest of subjects. No. 4 would be in a good stance because they had already become a dependable worker and it could come down to interview answering technique (vs No.1)

No one said a degree would guarantee a high paid job - but at least you get one...

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I'm actually all for the student loan scheme because this ought to make students think very carefully about the value of their degrees, and deter them from taking those degrees that wont allow them to pay back the loan in spades, through the better paid jobs they will be able to get. Only in this way will we get back to a sensible proportion of degree educated people, as opposed to the arbitrary 50% target set by the government.

I have friends who are encouraging their kids to go to University, even though they're C grade GCSE, D grade A level students. They tend to go to Universities that used to be polytechnics, study things like Sports Science, Hotel Management and Theatre Studies and you just know they're going to find it difficult when they graduate.

2 of my kids went to Uni, and 1 didn't, as she wasn't quite as acedemically bright and didn't want to go. She and I have no problems with this. She went to Legal Secretarial college for 2 years and at 19 has a well-paid job in the City. If she wants to study in later years, I'll encourage and help her all I can - If she doesn't then she's still done very well, In my opinion.

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If you went into a room of 4 people and they all applied for one office job, say data entry clerk, and it comprised of:

1. A graduate in Media

2. A school leaver with 5 A-C grade GCSEs,

3. A college leaver with 3 A-Levels,

4. A school drop out wtih no GCSES grade A-C, but had worked on a restaurant as a waiter for 2 years

They're unlikely to emply someone with a degree as generally its considered you'd be bored shiteless doing data entry. They'd want the one with the NVQ in typing skills.

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I think most of todays students are heavily subsidised by their babyboom parents.

This is fine if the subjects studied will provide employment in a shrinking global economy. IMO this is the only sniff of the inter-generational equity they will get as their parents are totally oblivious to the fact they are leaving an Argos catalogue full of serious global problems to be solved by their kids.

What a shock these 'graduates' will have as they realise they have been sold an unsustainable dream by their naive parents and the government who represent them.

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Perhaps it might have been a good idea to find this out BEFORE taking the course? :rolleyes:

These days it depends from which uni she got her degree from. Employers have their own 'ivy league' system of making a judgement about the abilities of potential applicants. There is a list of about 15 universities who attract twenty+ applications for every one place available. If it is thought that a candidate was good enough to get into one of them, then it must reflect something of their character and academic ability. Sorry to say that I've found that this system works.

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Does this Ivy League correspond or cross over with the Russell Group?

University of Birmingham

University of Bristol

University of Cambridge

Cardiff University

University of Edinburgh

University of Glasgow

Imperial College of Science, Technology & Medicine

King's College London

University of Leeds

University of Liverpool

London School of Economics & Political Science

University of Manchester

University of Newcastle upon Tyne

University of Nottingham

University of Oxford

University of Sheffield

University of Southampton

University of Warwick

University College London

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An intresting thread to me.

As I may have mentioned before, i am only 20. I work full time and my company pay for me to attend college 1 day a week on an HNC.

I am gaining a qualification which will allow me on to a degree and at the same time I am earning and learning. I enjoy the job and am getting a free education at the same time.

The majority of my friends are at uni, haven't a clue what they are going to do, and mainly doing useless degrees like psycology and politics. Have about 6hrs a week of lectures and spend the bank's money on booze!

This labour government has created this "university culture", nobody wants to learn a trade anymore. The "cool" thing to do is go to uni and waste 3 years of your life for no reason other than to "have a laugh".

It's a joke.

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It's all about timing, when I went to uni they done away with maintenance grants, and put in place student loans. Now for me, I thought naively that education was free and everyone had the right to a good education. However from my experience the bottom line is that you need money to go to uni. I had an advantage that because i came from a single parent background, and my mum suffers from muscular dystrophy so doesn't have money to assist me, my local authority paied the tutition fees (3k or so). (very loose term of the word advantage). I spent more time working in bars and part-time jobs trying to subsidise my existence at uni (KCL) which is in London and very costly, so i transferred to UMIST as i thought it'd be cheaper to exist up north. Again caught in the same trap of working to live i wasn't progressing on the degree and decided to leave to get a job since that's all i seemed to be doing anyway , just working.

Upon leaving i had amassed a student loan debt! Great! fortunately i secured a graduates salary anyway regardless of dropping out. So all in all, Uni was a bit of a fallacy for me. The belief in gaining a degree to secure a good job isn't necessarily true. I found out the expensive way. Anyway now i'm servicing my student loan, and am looking to purchase a property. But again relating to timing we're currently in the economic climate of house prices being at astronomical prices. So i agree with a previous post, being in your early-mid twenties now has to be a harder time than anyone. My nan tells me us young ones have life easy, i tell her it's all relative and probably is harder today than before.

Save, save and save, the market will correct itself one way or another, i'm biding my time till the house market inevitable collapses. And when it does, i will have no sympathy for the people that live their lives in perpetual debt and have withdrawn their equity. I'm a firm believer in living within your means, i'm afraid it's people that live beyond their means have brought us to the economic climate we're in now, and unfortunately people like me have to pay for their borrowing fuelling house prices up.

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Are one in three students reading Media Studies?

Most of my firends went to solid, middle-of-the-road Unis, and most are A and B at A Level types. Sure, many are humanities graduates - although some studied sciences - but none really have degrees in Lesbian Peace Media or whatever the Daily Mail joke degree of the year is.

The only ones that aren't horrifically underemployed are those that entered teaching or are over the age of 35. The reason for this is that there are a higher percentage of McJobs in the job market while the numbers of graduates have increased massively in the space of ten years.

I also personally think there's more point in terms of advancing humanity studying philosophy, history, social science, or literature or anything that promotes a deep understanding of something, than some mish-mashy, this'n'that chavvy degree like Busines Studies.

Still, I know this forum offers two choices - solid trade or hard science. :)

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