Unfair Britain - Three Friends

[adibrown]

Met up with three friends over Xmas. Made me realise how topsy turvy and unfair Britain actually is.

FRIEND ONE

Matt was the clever one. He was a natural whizz kid. Top of the class in everything. Nine OLevels, 4 A's at A-Level and a First from York University in Maths. He was also a hard worker, he worked through most summers in a local cafe and hotel and was a good laugh getting on with everybody. Matt moved up to London when he took a job at one of the big accountancy firms there and was on a good starting wage for a grad (I think about £30k- this was 1994). Anyway he worked there for a bit and then got a few promotions and 7 years later was on around £90k. He lived with 3 mates from Uni and they moved around a bit but for about 4 years they rented this great place in Camden which was a great party house. In 2002 he met a girl and decided to get out of the rat race in London and moved to Exeter. Here he took a job at a local Accountancy firm and is now a partner and on around £75k. He rented for 4 years in Exeter and earlier this year decided enough was enough and finally bought a house with his now fiancee. This house is a 3 bedroom ex council house on an estate and cost £240k. Unfortunately the estate still contains a high proportion of social housing and is a bit on the rough side with kids playing or selling drugs 24/7 outside of his house. He told me that he was debt free and had saved £50k over the past 10 years which he used as a deposit.

So his situation after 10 years is: A 3 Bedroom council house on a council estate with £50k equity.

FRIEND TWO

Wayne was the good laugh but little in the brains department. He did try hard but was always in 3rd or 4th set. He left school with 2 o-levels and resat his maths gcse 3 times before passing it. He never really worked as a kid although he had a paper round which he never did (dumped the papers in the bin instead). To be truthful he was a bit of a waster. At 18 after a couple of years on the dole his dad made him work as a plumbers apprentice. Anyway he never did quite make it as a plumber because he couldnt "get his head around it". At 23 his dad did him the biggest favour of his life. His dad bought him a flat in our local town (in the West Country). It was a tiny one bed flat and needed a bit doing to it. Wayne didnt touch it for about 3 years and to be truth it was a bit of a doss house for anyone going back to our home town for a few days. At about 27 he painted the walls white and laid some laminate and sold for a £30k profit in 2000. He bought another rundown flat and as he was on the dole he had plenty of time to paint it and paint teh kitchen units etc. This continued and eventually after 6 "renovations" he now has a 4 bedroom detached house in the best part of town and lets out 2 flats he owns in town. He has never worked since 1995.

His current situation is: 4 bed detached house in nice area - worth £490k (£110k mortgage). 2 flats each worth £120k (he paid £59,500 for them in 2003). So he has in total if he sold up tomorrow around £500k equity.

FRIEND THREE

Andy was the bad apple. He was a good mate at the time and so funny but always in trouble and looking back now he was a serial vandal. He would go mental and start kicking down peoples fences and pulling up flowers, hedges etc. As a kid we thought he was funny and mental but looking at him now he was just a mindless idiot and thug. He was expelled from school just before our final exams and it was no surprise to find out a year later that he had got the local bike pregnant and was living in the local estate. Anyway to be brief we met him in the pub last week and he has never worked ever. He has since dumped the bike but is now living with his 22 year old girlfriend and her 4 kids (2 are his to be fair). He bought his right to buy council house for £29,500 4 years ago and it is now worth....wait for it....£340k.

So his situation, he has a 4 bed house on a council estate and more than £300k equity.

What this tells me is that the UK under New labour does nothing to promote hard work or those who train hard to become professionals or qualified tradesmen. Wealth and prosperity can be achieved by simply buying a house. The sad thing about Matt is that he was working too hard and having a laugh sharing a house with his mates and then decided to rent when first moving to Exeter because he was in a new relationship and a new area. He worked so hard but if things stay static now forever it would take him 30 years to save £450k and get anywhere near the money Wayne has and probably 20 years to get what Andy has been given on a plate.

I just dont get it.

[mickeymouse]

To be fair its not just labour, wasnt it thatcher who propmoted the right to buy your council house?. It seems to boil down to one thing, Freind 1 -The whizz kid just forgot to aquire any assets, but if he is on 75k pa should soon catch up. Friend 2 got an asset bought for him by his dad, and friend 2 bought himself a cheap assett courtesy of the council.

[dnd]

Life's unfair - it'd be very boring if it wasn't

Gets the emotions going doesn't it?

[JonoP]

Great story - do not believe a word of it though.

Also, how did mate 3 buy the house if he did not work?

[mickeymouse]

Great story - do not believe a word of it though.

Also, how did mate 3 buy the house if he did not work?

Good point, they could be exaggerating the truth a bit. Nearly everyone I know adds a bit on, so to speak, as no one in the pub wants to boast how badly they've done.

It is a bit ironic that a lazy layabout is better off than your hardworking mate, but then again he did live it up in his youth so it was his choice not to buy a property and to share. But why do you think its unfair?? Has it been unfair to you personally?

[DaveyDave]

What this tells me is that the UK under New labour does nothing to promote hard work or those who train hard to become professionals or qualified tradesmen. Wealth and prosperity can be achieved by simply buying a house. The sad thing about Matt is that he was working too hard and having a laugh sharing a house with his mates and then decided to rent when first moving to Exeter because he was in a new relationship and a new area. He worked so hard but if things stay static now forever it would take him 30 years to save £450k and get anywhere near the money Wayne has and probably 20 years to get what Andy has been given on a plate.

I just dont get it.

Yes, I completely concur with this. I graduated 15 years ago with a 1st Honours Degree and have worked hard for a large blue chip company with a decent salary ever since. During this time, I've saved my ar$e off, I'm extremely tight with my money generally and drive a 15 year old car!. Given all this, I really didn't think that when it came to it I'd have any trouble buying a place, but there you go. To be honest, I know I just need to wait until things come good again, but I think it's sad that I'll probably have to wait until I'm almost 40 before being able to buy a place without incurring a silly amount of debt. The thing that *really* annoys me is that my hard-earned cash has basically halved in value house-wise over the last 4-5 years and I don't see why I should take this financial hit just because a large number of buyers are prepared to take on, what I would consider, to be irresponsible loans. :angry:

In the meantime, my friends who had the hindsight to buy a few years back are laughing. Ho hum..

[adibrown]

Great story - do not believe a word of it though.

Also, how did mate 3 buy the house if he did not work?

Apparently he has a mortgage which works out less than the old council rent. I cannot verify the exact figures and so wouldn't like to bet my life on those but I do know that they are there and there abouts.

I personally bought in 2001 which was wise but I do feel that HPI have made a lot of people a lot of money for no effort and this creates an environment where lazy gits can walk away with £200k whilst hard working people watch their savings diminish.

You are right about Thatcher and "Right to Buy" but I have to say it seems as though this Government more than any before it is happy to stand by, if not encourage, people to take on more and more debt in order to fuel HPI. This in turn as led to people feeling richer and MEWing to spend more and more on retail goods and as such keep the economy rolling. What I have seen with three friends who have started out in life during this era is that HPI hasnt really benefitted hard work but simply good timing or good fortune and this isnt really a lesson we should be teaching todays youth. Lets face it if Sarah Beeny is showing that you can spend 2 months painting a house magnolia and laying laminate floors and make as much in that time as a Doctor, Lawyer etc why bother educating yourself or even working.

[mickeymouse]

Apparently he has a mortgage which works out less than the old council rent. I cannot verify the exact figures and so wouldn't like to bet my life on those but I do know that they are there and there abouts.

I personally bought in 2001 which was wise but I do feel that HPI have made a lot of people a lot of money for no effort and this creates an environment where lazy gits can walk away with £200k whilst hard working people watch their savings diminish.

You are right about Thatcher and "Right to Buy" but I have to say it seems as though this Government more than any before it is happy to stand by, if not encourage, people to take on more and more debt in order to fuel HPI. This in turn as led to people feeling richer and MEWing to spend more and more on retail goods and as such keep the economy rolling. What I have seen with three friends who have started out in life during this era is that HPI hasnt really benefitted hard work but simply good timing or good fortune and this isnt really a lesson we should be teaching todays youth. Lets face it if Sarah Beeny is showing that you can spend 2 months painting a house magnolia and laying laminate floors and make as much in that time as a Doctor, Lawyer etc why bother educating yourself or even working.

I saw this from another thread:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...q=money+masters

I wish they teach us this cr*p at school, then maybe people would realise what going on, but then again we wouldn't all be slave then would we?

So if history is just repeating itself then we will all be poor again soon, even though Gordon did promise no boom and bust anymore, but if so many people are in stupid debt, its not up to him , its upto the central banks. Maybe the only way to avoid it is to diversify, by maybe buying gold or something, at the end of the day the compelling need to buy a house is just a mindset, and the banks are encouraging it.

Edited January 3, 2007 by mickeymouse

[AteMoose]

using your figures since 1994 this guy has earnt about 900k before tax, as an accountant he would have known of the tax benifits of owning a house but choose to share with friends. Somone who earnt 900k in the last 13 years, and has been living with friends or sharing with gf must be taking alot of drugs and alc to only be left with 50k. Especially as many accountants do friends and families accounts in there spare time for a bit of extra cash.

I left uni in 2001, but i remember knowing at uni house prices were cheap and trying to persuade family and girlfriend to help me with finances. I remember in my placement and final year wathcing prices boom and realising if i didnt buy i would be priced out. When i graduated my salary wouldnt meet the 3x salary multiple, I was young and didnt think about renting rooms out and i certainly didnt know about self cert. I asked my ex if she wanted to live me but she was focused on her studies and the rel finished before she graduated. I partied a little because i was priced out until i got promoted and got a pay rise in 2004 which meant i 'could' just afford a property on a normal salary multple. Since 2004, overall prices in the midlands have stayed level, i have had bonuses and small pay rises. However i noticed that larger properties have fallen by upto 30%. in december 2006 i bought a large house i will be happy on living in for the next 15 years, on a bigger salary multiple, with plenty of rooms to rent out to friends. I bought because im now on a better than average salary, stable job with a recession proof company, and a bank would allow me to borrow enough money to buy a very large house (that was 9x my salary in 2001!?!?) in 2006 at 5x my current salary, i used skills from the site to get a big discount off the asking price, and used money i have saved since 2001. Since graduated in 2001 on a salary less than your friends starting salary i saved 35k because i was living with friends.....

Im a normal bloke with a normal job paid slightly more than average, however a high street bank allowed me to borrow money and i can 'afford' as a FTber to buy a large newish house at a quality and size well above the average for the uk, on a single morgage. My worry is if i can do it on my own, many others can on there own or with a partner and houseprices could go alot further

Sorry i dont believe your story, i would expect his savings to be at least 400k, although he may have been burnt by the tech bubble in the last 13 years he would have definatly bought a house, even if only for investment reasons. The peer presure from other accountants and friends would have been HUGE....

somone on 75k, with a 50k deposit can get a morgage for 410k, if his parner earns 30k they could go upto 450k using a high street bank, self cert they could go ALOT higher, by looking at the limits of what the banks will offer you can see where the market could potentially go

Edited January 3, 2007 by moosetea

[DesperateHousewife]

I have to say i wouldn't want friend A as my accountant.

Edited January 3, 2007 by DesperateHousewife

[adibrown]

I left uni in 2001, but i remember knowing at uni house prices were cheap and trying to persuade family and girlfriend to help me with finances. I remember in my placement and final year wathcing prices boom and realising if i didnt buy i would be priced out.

I dont mean to sound condescending but this is typical of somebody who graduated in 2001.

What you have to understand is that those of us who graduated in the early to mid 90's were not even aware of house prices. Their was no DIY programs or Property Ladders etc on TV, the papers and TV barely mentioned houses or house prices. People were still wandering around burnt from the last crash and the general concensus was "Your young, live life and enjoy yourself and worry about buying a house when your older and getting married."

using your figures since 1994 this guy has earnt about 900k before tax, as an accountant he would have known of the tax benifits of owning a house but choose to share with friends. Somone who earnt 900k in the last 13 years, and has been living with friends or sharing with gf must be taking alot of drugs and alc to only be left with 50k. Especially as many accountants do friends and families accounts in there spare time for a bit of extra cash.

For a start Matt earned around £30k to start off with for a few years. I lived in London as well and I can assure you that £1700 after tax leaves you with very little to save. Think at least £500 for rent,ctax,bills add on £150 for travel and a further £200 for food. I easily burnt £20 a night in the pub and this was a 5 nights a week event so thats a further £400 plus eating out once a week thats £120. Think £100 a month for clothes and another £150 towards holidays and your left with about £150 for everything else. I imagine he also had big Uni debts to pay off but I couldnt be sure.

Anyway I think after about 4 years at PWC he managed to get himself to a point where he was saving about £800 a month but when you are single and in your mid to late 20's earning that kind of cash you start spending accordingly. I dont think he was overly reckless with cash but just got sucked into the London ethos of work hard play hard. Anyway he certainly wasn't considering the tax benefits of house ownership, I think he is a little more human than that and simply considered the benefits of living with mates without taking on ridicolous debt.

Sorry i dont believe your story, i would expect his savings to be at least 400k, although he may have been burnt by the tech bubble in the last 13 years he would have definatly bought a house, even if only for investment reasons. The peer presure from other accountants and friends would have been HUGE....

I can assure you my friend does exist and he has savings of £50k. If you have ever lived in London you will understand that saving is difficult at the best of times. Also we are from a different era which is not obsessed with buying houses. I think it may be the fact that we are old enough to remember the last crash and so didn't take a lot of notice. If you graduated in 2001 then you have only ever lived the House Price dream. For 100% of your adult life prices have been booming, for me it is more like 40%so I do not see things so one dimensional.

[azogar]

This is an interesting thread (with some spin no doubt) that would probably be better suited on the main discussion boards, it interests me because a basic assumption has been made that if you did/do well at school etc., work hard you should deserve more than a person who didn't / doesn't work as hard etc.... Sort of meritification at its purest.

However, this view is very inaccurate IMHO

Firstly, lets consider class and privilege; many children go to good schools purely because of their parents financial status that has nothing to do with meritification. Similarly, they have better opportunities (than less fortunate kids) throughout their childhood.

Secondly, What is clever? is clever being an accountant who did very well at school but could not see the wood for the trees when it came to getting on a property ladder in the late 90s that was pretty much a low risk (and quite obvious) way to increase your equity; not hard for a man of his status and wealth.

Thirdly, What is luck? there is no doubt that luck can play it's part in wealth and investments, but I subscribe to the view that you (mostly) make tour own luck and hence look at the second point as example.

OK, this is all a bit on the simplistic side but my conclusion is that if you believe that the UK is a merit-based society you are wrong.

PS - I have a B.Sc and M.Sc and if I could go back in time to when I was 18, I would never go to Uni I would have become a plumber instead

[echapps]

Met up with three friends over Xmas. Made me realise how topsy turvy and unfair Britain actually is.

These stories are so obviously made up (or at least embellished). IMHO.

[mickeymouse]

This is an interesting thread (with some spin no doubt) that would probably be better suited on the main discussion boards, it interests me because a basic assumption has been made that if you did/do well at school etc., work hard you should deserve more than a person who didn't / doesn't work as hard etc.... Sort of meritification at its purest.

However, this view is very inaccurate IMHO

Firstly, lets consider class and privilege; many children go to good schools purely because of their parents financial status that has nothing to do with meritification. Similarly, they have better opportunities (than less fortunate kids) throughout their childhood.

Secondly, What is clever? is clever being an accountant who did very well at school but could not see the wood for the trees when it came to getting on a property ladder in the late 90s that was pretty much a low risk (and quite obvious) way to increase your equity; not hard for a man of his status and wealth.

Thirdly, What is luck? there is no doubt that luck can play it's part in wealth and investments, but I subscribe to the view that you (mostly) make tour own luck and hence look at the second point as example.

OK, this is all a bit on the simplistic side but my conclusion is that if you believe that the UK is a merit-based society you are wrong.

PS - I have a B.Sc and M.Sc and if I could go back in time to when I was 18, I would never go to Uni I would have become a plumber instead

Being clever and earning a good wage has never been true. I knew of a guy who claimed to be a big earner as a corporate sales type, he certainly had all the flash cars, lived in a big house, splashed the cash, I'm sure wqe all know one like that, funnily enough he got in the wrong crowd, blew it all on coke , lost his job, lost his marriage and now lives with his mum and dad. Hmmm clever enough to earn 90k pa , but not clever enough to keep it.

On the other end of the scale, I know another guy who is a bit of a scally. He had a job , but I would say he swung the lead a bit, with a little bit of pilfering , taking the p*ss with time off , that sort of thing. His bosses caught on and wanted to sack him, but he cottoned on and went on the sick, eventually they paid him off with a couple of grand after about 4 months of arguments. But he is now suing them for a an "accident" he had at work and hopes to get about 6k compensation. In the mean time the state pays for his IO mortgage, he pays no Council tax, he has JSA to support him, he has £25pw dismobility allowance because of the "accident", also he can rent a room out to in his house for £280 pcm. So that leaves him very comfortable thankyou very much. Why bother finding another job for 800£pcm? Not saying its ethical but a lot more clever to get money for nothing. 'm sure there are deserving people who need benefits when they are on hard times, but it is too easy to milk the system, I hear stories like that everyday.

Hmm " I couldn't do what you do " is what he says as I go dutifully to work on a night shift. Now thats topsy turvy , but I dont really want to just sponge of the state. nyway I cant see things getting much better for this country, We have little in Gold reserves we are being swamped by an underclass of chavs and also loads of immigrants, and in some trains of thought now IRs look to go to 6.25% by 2008, this can only mean tax increases as soon a Gordon gets in power.

Edited January 3, 2007 by mickeymouse

[Austin Allegro]

£100 a month on clothes?!!

£200 a month on food?? What's he eating, caviar and champagne for breakfast?

I'm not surprised someone spending that amount can't save anything!

[adibrown]

These stories are so obviously made up (or at least embellished). IMHO.

Well I could give you there full names and addresses if you wanted to do your own research but I dont think that would be fair on these three.

What may make this appear unreal is that I have cherry picked three friends from a group of about 40. Andy was someone I used to knock around with at school (about 20 years ago) but hadn't seen since then. There are others I know who have also been mainly on the dole over this period and didn't buy their council house. Wayne was the one who I have briefly emailed now and again over the past 20 years but the one of my mates from home who became one of these new breed "property developers". Matt is just the one mate I know who as tragically stayed out of the property market until this year. It was chatting to him and going to see his new house in Exeter that made me write this thread. It just seemed bizarre after banging into the other two that they had turned out much wealthier simply because they made the right decision to buy property atthe right time.

May be it wasnt a fair comparison because the other 37 friends/acquaintances have all more or less found themselves in positions of equal wealth and fortune (about £130k equity and some savings/pensions). I just cherry picked these three to bang home a point.

[adibrown]

PS - I have a B.Sc and M.Sc and if I could go back in time to when I was 18, I would never go to Uni I would have become a plumber instead

This is completely my point. Over the past ten years I have looked around and wealth as had nothing to do with education or working hard to forge a career....in fact if anything it has become almost a burden. When you look into the expensive restaurants in Brighton they are full of 4x4 driving plumbers and builders or this new breed of "property developer". Alongside them sit accountants, lawyers, doctors, journalists flashing their credit cards around trying to keep up with the new breed of "property tycoons" but sinking further and further into debt. On a recent flight out to Antigua about 75% of the passengers were loud mouthed chavs with not a brain cell to share between them. It was like a flight to Alicante. That is fu**ed up. If it wasnt for HPI that kind of sh*t would not be happening.

This feeling of "If i'd left school at 16 and worked in a pie shop i might have bought a house in 2000 and would now be £80k better off than I am now" is endemic now amongst graduates. I suppose in conjunction with tuition fees it may be a concerted effort by the government to reverse the "I didn't manage to pass my A-Levels but I might go to Uni anyway" type mentality.

I forsee this whole thing getting back to normality by 2008/09. We have had 10 years of madness. When house prices crash the wheat will be seperated from the chaff once again, normal service will resume.

[Guest Cletus VanDamme]

For a start Matt earned around £30k to start off with for a few years. I lived in London as well and I can assure you that £1700 after tax leaves you with very little to save. Think at least £500 for rent,ctax,bills add on £150 for travel and a further £200 for food. I easily burnt £20 a night in the pub and this was a 5 nights a week event so thats a further £400 plus eating out once a week thats £120. Think £100 a month for clothes and another £150 towards holidays and your left with about £150 for everything else. I imagine he also had big Uni debts to pay off but I couldnt be sure.

I can assure you my friend does exist and he has savings of £50k. If you have ever lived in London you will understand that saving is difficult at the best of times.

You're living in cloud cuckoo land mate, and are providing ample evidence for the CO's of this forum who lambast those of us from your 'different era' for being the 'want it all now' generation.

£1700 pm after tax leaves you plenty to save. Try living in London on £600 pm after tax in London as I did in the early 90s. Of course, if he chose to spend £100 of that per week on booze and £150x12=£1800 per year on holidays and £100 per month on his weekend Burberry gear, then naturally he wouldn't have much to show for it apart from an ex-council prefab on a sink estate.

Also we are from a different era which is not obsessed with buying houses.

No, just happy to p1ss their life chances up against a wall!

I've no sympathy for him. Sounds like your Mate B had the right idea. OK, his dad got him off to a good start, but from there on he showed true entrepreneurial spirit.

I don't mean to sound stroppy, but I just find this unbelievable!

Edited January 3, 2007 by Cletus VanDamme

[DesperateHousewife]

£100 a month on clothes?!!

£200 a month on food?? What's he eating, caviar and champagne for breakfast?

I'm not surprised someone spending that amount can't save anything!

Are you having a laugh ?

£100 would buy you a pair of jeans and a bra and knickers, maybe a pair of tights too.

£50 a week on food is not unreasonable either IMO. Some of us like the odd bit of bacon with our beans on toast.

[OzzMosiz]

£50 a week on food is not unreasonable either IMO. Some of us like the odd bit of bacon with our beans on toast.

too true

£50 a week doesn't buy that much if you include washing up, washing powder, etc into the 'food' shopping.

Add a bottle or 2 of wine into it and not much left of that 50 quid is there!

[AteMoose]

laugh.gif too true

£50 a week doesn't buy that much if you include washing up, washing powder, etc into the 'food' shopping.

Add a bottle or 2 of wine into it and not much left of that 50 quid is there!

Me and my girlfriend live live kings on 22 quid a week each for food, lots of fresh food, meat every day, veg, puddings starters, wine beer, lots of fresh orange juice, lots of fruit. However she does cook everyday, i take sandwiches to work and we shop in lidl, why buy premade food (unless it is alot cheaper...), and that includes bin bags, soap, washing powder which we either get from pound land or lidl.

Edited January 5, 2007 by moosetea

[peemac]

Me and my girlfriend live live kings on 22 quid a week each for food, lots of fresh food, meat every day, veg, puddings starters, wine beer, lots of fresh orange juice, lots of fruit. However she does cook everyday, i take sandwiches to work and we shop in lidl, why buy premade food (unless it is alot cheaper...), and that includes bin bags, soap, washing powder which we either get from pound land or lidl.

Sorry to rain on your smug parade but eating food from Lidl is not living like kings.

You get what you pay for.

Edit: Actually I should qualify that, when it comes to fresh fruit, veg and meat you get what yoiu pay for. Ready meals are a riop-off anywhere. Even Iceland.

Edited January 5, 2007 by peemac

[DesperateHousewife]

Sorry to rain on your smug parade but eating food from Lidl is not living like kings.

You get what you pay for.

Edit: Actually I should qualify that, when it comes to fresh fruit, veg and meat you get what yoiu pay for. Ready meals are a riop-off anywhere. Even Iceland.

Absolutely, when moosetea guts have rotted with cancer you'll wish that you'd gone wild and treated yourself to the odd farm shop/organic apple.

I have growing kids there is no way I would feed them that shit, i'd rather go without the house to be honest, somethings are just more important and a good diet is one of them.

[Milkshock]

On a recent flight out to Antigua about 75% of the passengers were loud mouthed chavs with not a brain cell to share between them. It was like a flight to Alicante. That is fu**ed up. If it wasnt for HPI that kind of sh*t would not be happening.

[Ignorant Steve]

A thread that encapsulates all that is wrong with this website.

Complete and utter unadulterated BOLLOKS.

Adibrown - you are a complete buffoon if you think anyone believes this nonsense.

Everyone I know who was earning more than £75Kpa in London through the 90's is laughing in their £1m houses.

And a partner in an accountancy firm with £50K savings buys a £240K house? - dream on a5sewipe (as the immortal zzg113 would have said).