kris_77 Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Do you think UK would be better of by itself? Norway,Iceland and Switzerland are not part of the EU and enjoy some of the highest standards of living in the world (Nos 1,2 and 9 respectively on the UN HDI report for 2006) as a result. They access all the trading benefits enjoyed by EU members by paying a 'fee' to the bloc whilst avoiding the excess bureaucracy and uncontrolled immigration associated with the EU. The only 2 EU countries in the top 10 are Ireland(heavily subsidised by the rest of the EU) and Sweden. The UK has slipped to 18 in the 2006 report,down from 15 last year. Only 4 countries from 'Old' Europe (Germany, Spain and two pseudo olds, Greece and Portugal) trail the UK on the list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Develop...dex#2006_report It is clear that the living standards in this country are steadily declining and allowing uncontrolled access to labour markets in this country(which in turn facilities the flight of capital out of the country) is definitely not part of the solution. Mr.Mangle What dangerous consequences? Do you really think a Romanian Teacher or Doctor is automatically inferior to UK trained ones? Is this what you are suggesting? Mr.Mangle I am not suggesting that professionals from the two countries are in any way inferior to ones in the UK but as forging documents seems to be a virtual cottage industry in those countries (judging from the piece in the Telegraph), systems must be put in place(similar to the ones for professionals from non EU countries) to ensure that standards are not compromised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twatmangle Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 I am not suggesting that professionals from the two countries are in any way inferior to ones in the UK but as forging documents seems to be a virtual cottage industry in those countries (judging from the piece in the Telegraph), systems must be put in place(similar to the ones for professionals from non EU countries) to ensure that standards are not compromised. I would suggest that the piece in the telegraph is guilty of sloppy journalism. I do business in Romania and know how tedious it is to get paperwork sorted out. Every document has to be read and stamped by a public notary if they are used for any official business. You cannot forge them easily. You can bribe officials to get things done quickly if you want, but not to approve/stamp fake documents. I have seen Romanian University exam certificates. Each one translated into English by an officially/legally approved translator, with accompanying stamp of authenticity and signature, again difficult to forge. Earlier on in the thread I commented on the Telegraph and it's choice to use the minority Gypsies as 'typical Romanians' in an article about wanting to come over here etc, as it gave the readers what they wanted to read. This is just more of the same. Sloppy journalism and unsubstantiated generalisations made by people who have probably never been there. Probably did all their research on Wikipedia. Mr.Mangle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LargelyIgnorant Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Unfortunately next year it will become easier to borrow money in Romania and I am sure people will jump onto credit card debts. rondy, you appear to be a Romanian already living in the UK. If this is correct, doesn't this imply other Romanians could well do the same - why did you decide to come to the UK rather than Spain or Italy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kris_77 Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Probably did all their research on Wikipedia. Mr.Mangle Here goes... http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/pdfs/report/HDR06-complete.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twatmangle Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 (edited) rondy, you appear to be a Romanian already living in the UK. If this is correct, doesn't this imply other Romanians could well do the same - why did you decide to come to the UK rather than Spain or Italy? What? One of them's here? You go and get the torches, I'll get the pitchforks. We'll meet by the tavern. Mr.Mangle Here goes... http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/pdfs/report/HDR06-complete.pdf Thanks. A 440 page document. I'll read it in the morning. Edited January 1, 2007 by twatmangle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kris_77 Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 You can bribe officials to get things done quickly if you want, but not to approve/stamp fake documents. Mr.Mangle Hmm..good to know that even corrupt officials have scruples (unless they are offered a large enough sum of money) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LargelyIgnorant Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 What? One of them's here? You go and get the torches, I'll get the pitchforks. We'll meet by the tavern. Why would you want to do that? I'm just about to become an immigrant - hopefully people where I'm going won't share your attitude. If roady is Romanian living in the UK (he may not be), it seems somewhat illogical to be stating that more Romanian people won't be coming to live here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondy Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 rondy, you appear to be a Romanian already living in the UK. If this is correct, doesn't this imply other Romanians could well do the same - why did you decide to come to the UK rather than Spain or Italy? Being a faculty member at one of the prestigious universities in UK, I came here because I got the best offer. I wanted very much to stay in USA (where I got my Ph.D. and have done 5 years of postdoc), but I was not succesful to get a job at a prestigious enough university. In my domain of activity, the universities in UK are the best in all Europe. If Spanish universities were better, I would have gone there. Good enough for an answer? Why would you want to do that? I'm just about to become an immigrant - hopefully people where I'm going won't share your attitude. If roady is Romanian living in the UK (he may not be), it seems somewhat illogical to be stating that more Romanian people won't be coming to live here. OK, it is true that the Romanians who want to get a Ph.D. in Europe or become a student prefer Oxford, Cambridge or Imperial College to any of the places in Europe. So yes, Romanians who want to get a Ph.D. abroad in Europe will do their best to come to the UK places. BUt I guess Daily Mail does not write about that kind of people, does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatso Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Good enough for an answer? Are you Borat in disguise.......are you Borat in disguise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondy Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Are you Borat in disguise.......are you Borat in disguise? I just shaved my moustache so people won't recognise me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twatmangle Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Hmm..good to know that even corrupt officials have scruples (unless they are offered a large enough sum of money) To tell the truth, many Romanian officials can be bribed in to doing favours for a carton of cigarettes or some coffee, maybe perfume if it's a lady. This is usually just to speed things up rather than actually falsify documents or defraud anyone. I think to falsify documents like this would be a very serious issue for both parties if caught, and therefore would think it fairly rare, but I have nothing to back this up. Of course there is corruption in every society, it would be naive to think otherwise. How many UK self-certs are truthful? This is getting away from your original point, which I think was meant to suggest that Romanian qualification are inferior to British ones and now they have joined the EU we'll have to accept them. EU membership means that qualifications obtained in Bulgaria and Romania are automatically considered equivalent to British ones, removing the requirement for any qualifying exams,sometimes with dangerous consequences. From my experience, Romanian degrees are far superior to UK ones. UK degrees are ten-a-penny now. University of North Peckham Degree in Media Studies won't cut it on the job front here and people are suprised when they can only get a 12K job after graduation. Most countries in Europe have 4 year degree courses unlike ours which is 3. Your average Romanain graduate will be specialised in their field as well as being multi-lingual - compare and contrast with our lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charlie The Tramp Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 RB you owe me a pint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LargelyIgnorant Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Being a faculty member at one of the prestigious universities in UK, I came here because I got the best offer. I wanted very much to stay in USA (where I got my Ph.D. and have done 5 years of postdoc), but I was not succesful to get a job at a prestigious enough university. In my domain of activity, the universities in UK are the best in all Europe. If Spanish universities were better, I would have gone there. Good enough for an answer? OK, it is true that the Romanians who want to get a Ph.D. in Europe or become a student prefer Oxford, Cambridge or Imperial College to any of the places in Europe. So yes, Romanians who want to get a Ph.D. abroad in Europe will do their best to come to the UK places. BUt I guess Daily Mail does not write about that kind of people, does it? Thank you for clarifying why your position is not inconsistent. Wouldn't know what the Daily Mail says. Went to one of those 3 myself, and visited the others a fair bit. Suprised you find the UK so awful whilst at one of these fine institutions, or is it the British you dislike more than the actual country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondy Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Thank you for clarifying why your position is not inconsistent. Wouldn't know what the Daily Mail says. Went to one of those 3 myself, and visited the others a fair bit. Suprised you find the UK so awful whilst at one of these fine institutions, or is it the British you dislike more than the actual country? I of course do not have anything against UK or British people. Britain is a very nice country but it is not the only beautiful country in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kris_77 Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 (edited) This is getting away from your original point, which I think was meant to suggest that Romanian qualification are inferior to British ones and now they have joined the EU we'll have to accept them. From my experience, Romanian degrees are far superior to UK ones. UK degrees are ten-a-penny now. University of North Peckham Degree in Media Studies won't cut it on the job front here and people are suprised when they can only get a 12K job after graduation. Most countries in Europe have 4 year degree courses unlike ours which is 3. Your average Romanain graduate will be specialised in their field as well as being multi-lingual - compare and contrast with our lot. I am not making a case for UK qualifications but just pointing out what risks speedy accession of the kind we saw yesterday brings with it. Last week, a French GP practising in London was found guilty of negligence after he failed to get a patient with a heart attack to casualty on time due to 'linguistic' difficulties. I have had the experience of working with colleagues from new EU in my field(which is that of saving lives) and have found most of them to be skillful and competent. But I also know of cases where lives have been put at risk due to their unfamiliarity with the healthcare system in the UK and treatment modalities in use here. Professional training needs a lot of investment on part of the government and I doubt if Romanian and Bulgarian governments have invested as much in training their nurses and doctors as the UK has done in recent years. I am sure the situation is same in other fields, including technical education. I reckon I am digressing from the main topic yet again...Mr Twatmangle, could you kindly list any tangible benefits the accession of Bulgaria and Romania would bring to the EU?(apart from their 'dynamic, vibrant' economies, the 'merits' of which we are already aware of) Edited January 1, 2007 by kris_77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondy Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 I reckon I am digressing from the main topic yet again...Mr Twatmangle, could you kindly list any tangible benefits the accession of Bulgaria and Romania would bring to the EU?(apart from their 'dynamic, vibrant' economies, the 'merits' of which we are already aware of) I guess the only reason for EU to exist is to eventually counter balance USA, CHina and India, isn't it? Bulgaria and Romania will contribute in about 10 years from now. They will be in better shape than Cyprus or Greece by then. The EU is a concept for the future not for 2007. It might not work. BUt is the alternative? Stay always in the shadow of Americans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charlie The Tramp Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Bulgaria and Romania will contribute in about 10 years from now. They will be in better shape than Cyprus or Greece by then. The EU is a concept for the future not for 2007. In 10 years the EU will begin to break up, the monster will eventually go the way of all past Empires. The seeds of dissent are already being planted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondy Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 In 10 years the EU will begin to break up, the monster will eventually go the way of all past Empires. The seeds of dissent are already being planted. USA is the current empire. EU is barely being born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charlie The Tramp Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 USA is the current empire. EU is barely being born. Well it has been a very long confinement then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondy Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Well it has been a very long confinement then. Anyway, I do not disagree with you that EU project might die sooner than later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kris_77 Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 (edited) I guess the only reason for EU to exist is to eventually counter balance USA, CHina and India, isn't it? Bulgaria and Romania will contribute in about 10 years from now. They will be in better shape than Cyprus or Greece by then. The EU is a concept for the future not for 2007. It might not work. BUt is the alternative? Stay always in the shadow of Americans? The UK is in a unique position with re: to the US due to a more or less common ancestry, English language etc. The UK's relationship with the US is often at odds with those of France and Germany who have traditionally given the US a cold shoulder. The UK has more in common with the US than with,say, Poland or Bulgaria. Why should Britain be forced to adopt an antagonistic approach towards the US(as it would be, once a common EU foreign office is established) when it is clearly not in its best interests? Britain also has a special relationship with India due to the colonial past and the presence of a large Indian diaspora in this country. I feel Britain would do rather well if it stays out of the whole EU mess and tries to manage its affairs independently while maintaining good trade ties with the EU( like Switzerland). The EU might emerge as the next superpower as the power of the dollar wanes and the likes of Romania and Bulgaria grow at 10% pa for the next 30 years(a highly unlikely prospect, it should be added). However, the more likely scenario is one of falling living standards,stagnating wages and recession,atleast in the medium term. One cannot expect to establish parity among all the 27 economies in the EU without accepting a massive redistribution of wealth from the richer nations to the poorer ones (either through subsidies or capital flight), a prospect that would not go down well with the British public. Edited January 2, 2007 by kris_77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondy Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Have you read this one? The friendship with US seems to be kind of unilateral... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...1/nusnoop01.xml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twatmangle Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 (edited) I doubt if Romanian and Bulgarian governments have invested as much in training their nurses and doctors as the UK has done in recent years. I am sure the situation is same in other fields, including technical education. In absolute cash terms, then yes you are probably correct, the Romanians/Bulgarians have spent less on training than the UK, but this doesn't mean a thing when you are comparing skills and competence. The Russians sent the first object into space, the first satellite into orbit, the first man in space, the first woman in space, the first space walk, the first space station, the first spacecraft to reach the moon etc. They did this on a fraction of the budget of NASA. Just because the Americans spent more doesn't mean they're technically any better, perhaps the opposite. I reckon I am digressing from the main topic yet again...Mr Twatmangle, could you kindly list any tangible benefits the accession of Bulgaria and Romania would bring to the EU?(apart from their 'dynamic, vibrant' economies, the 'merits' of which we are already aware of) Business - The biggest benefit to me and the rest of the Europe is that we can do business more easily there. Pure and simple. It's a new and growing market. I know several people who do business in Romania, and they're all very successful. I do some business there myself and entry into the EU will make business easier, as well as (hopefully) more profitable. It's the fastest growing economy in Europe as I keep saying, and now we have access to it, together with thousands of skilled graduates, with excellent language skills there are opportunities for people to take. Think about the bigger picture. We need rich neighbours, not poor ones. In the coming years the Romanians and Bulgarians will be buying fridges, freezers, plasma screens, new cars etc. OUr industry, if there is much left will benefit. Tourism - do your own research on that, or just ask anyone who has been there. Edited January 2, 2007 by twatmangle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wuluf Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Rondy, you are a very silly person. Newspapers do not manipulate me into thinking anything. Read what the report says. Were the budget airlines lying? Romanians and Bulgarians are not going to Spain or Italy. They don't offer the same level of benefits and free health care this country does. This sentence is an example of sensationalism that affects the weak minded among us.. Rondy probably assumed incorrectly that you were taken in by this obvious misrepresentation of the facts. "In Romania, new budget airlines have sprung up virtually overnight with new routes to cater for the thousands of migrants heading for Britain and other EU countries in the coming days." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wuluf Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 1) Romanians can learn italian or spanish in 2-3 months. For Poles and Czechs this advantage did not work. 2) food is very cheap in Italy or Spain. It is also quite warm, they do not pay for utilities too much. 3) around Turin there are already 200K romanians, same around Barcelona, Aliocante, etc. It is much easier to fidn jobs when somebody helps you. There were restyrictions, but people managed to work. 4) UK is very far away from Romania. Romanians tend to travel by bus, to save money. 5) Romania has a population of 23 millions befroe 2002, now 3.5 millions work abroad. How many more do you think can leave the country? Romanians have not so bad salaries in Spain, Italy, France, Germany. Some child benefits won't make a difference. A 1 bedroom aprt. rents in Italy or Spain for 200 pounds/month. Cand you find something like this in London? + The romanians (being on the whole an insular lot) see themselves as being (superior) South Western European rather than East European. Re the Poles. The Poles have a greater cultural affinity with the West/Anglo-Saxon world (headed by the USA) than probably any other Eastern European country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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