In Trouble With The Mrs

[Guest chrisbrighton]

Actually, there is a need to do anything that will get people to realise that their actions have an impact on others. Me, me, me just doesn't work any more. Sell it and pay your bill. Seems fair to me.

And it also has incredibly low wages. Brighton is one of the most stretched bubbles around.

well i guess that we should just agree to differ

[Guest X-QUORK]

Buy your wife a kitten. Women love kittens because they're soft, furry and get up to all kinds of hilarious japes.

You can buy yourself at least six months grace before Tiddles grows up and her mind will wander back to the housing issue. At that point, buy a puppy...you get the picture.

Only downside is you'll have more animals than Dr Doolittle if this effing crash doesn't get going soon.

[Mags]

well i guess that we should just agree to differ

Not good enough really. Owning more than one property is having a negative impact on others. You could do something about that. Your decision not to is morally questionable. We shouldn't, as a society, pussyfoot around these issues. Your actions are anti-social. That's not rude, it's just a statement of fact. Or would you rather that wasn't pointed out to you?

Do something of value in 2007! What an opportunity you have!

[Guest X-QUORK]

Not good enough really. Owning more than one property is having a negative impact on others. You could do something about that. Your decision not to is morally questionable. We shouldn't, as a society, pussyfoot around these issues. Your actions are anti-social. That's not rude, it's just a statement of fact. Or would you rather that wasn't pointed out to you?

Do something of value in 2007! What an opportunity you have!

Very well put Mags. I see BTL as as anti-social as driving a Hum-Vee or flying to New York for the weekend to do a spot of shopping...people just don't seem to give a f*ck about the consequences of their actions.

[since the beginning]

Cant comment on the whole country obviously but in the markets I am familiar with London, Bristol and Surrey things are still booming. I really don't buy this whole conspiracy stuff. Obviously the figures are distorted by the obscene costs of and scramble for properties in prosperous areas, but the BBC et al are not involved in some enormous conspiracy headed by Gordon Brown and backed by the mysterious forces in the US as some of the nut jobs here seem to imply.

I agree the south-east and London are still booming. I think the structure of buyers has completely changed though. The number of ftb helped by parents has massively increases, BTL'rs has massively increased, empty houses have massively increased. All the previous examples are forms of speculation; the general public are still enchanted with housing and can only see rises. Unfortunately with cheap credit, coupled with low Interest Rates the boom has gone on much longer than most imagined.

I don't know about the rest of the Country but there is no point denying that the South is booming. However there is also now no doubt that the bubble is getting more and more out of control, and will implode when that cheap easy credit dries up. At the end of the day there are no fundamentals that mean property should be so expensive and ****** all people can really afford them in the long run.

[Ethel]

Could it be that *shock*horror* people really are still buying property?

If you class BTL landlords as people, then yes.

Landlords who are currently happy with zero or negative yields because they believe the capital growth in an ever-appreciating housing market will make up for it.

But how are they going to eventually liquidate these assets? Who are they going to sell to at still higher prices? Because Joe Average won't be able to afford it - he already can't.

[DaggaDagga]

Not good enough really. Owning more than one property is having a negative impact on others. You could do something about that. Your decision not to is morally questionable. We shouldn't, as a society, pussyfoot around these issues. Your actions are anti-social. That's not rude, it's just a statement of fact. Or would you rather that wasn't pointed out to you?

Do something of value in 2007! What an opportunity you have!

Don't have a pop at someone who's legally made some money, just because you haven't.

I whinged about BTL for years, then realised that you can't beat them. So I bought one.

As everyone on here points out, BTL is not a guaranteed gain. It's a risk.

If you think the system's wrong then organise a protest, write to your MP, whatever. Do something constructive.

[Mags]

Very well put Mags. I see BTL as as anti-social as driving a Hum-Vee or flying to New York for the weekend to do a spot of shopping...people just don't seem to give a f*ck about the consequences of their actions.

I agree. And I don't see why we should accept it any longer without pointing out just how anti-social it is. It isn't something to agree to differ on any longer, just like we can't agree to differ on whether smoking causes cancer.

Don't have a pop at someone who's legally made some money, just because you haven't.

I whinged about BTL for years, then realised that you can't beat them. So I bought one.

As everyone on here points out, BTL is not a guaranteed gain. It's a risk.

If you think the system's wrong then organise a protest, write to your MP, whatever. Do something constructive.

Don't be so bloody stupid. BTL isn't the only way to make money so don't assume that those who have decided not to invest in something so morally bankrupt haven't made money in other socially acceptable ways.

Sell your BTL. There, that's something constructive. Don't you feel better now?

[Guest X-QUORK]

Don't have a pop at someone who's legally made some money, just because you haven't.

Legality doesn't make it ok. Belching at a funeral is legal.

[Guest chrisbrighton]

Not good enough really. Owning more than one property is having a negative impact on others. You could do something about that. Your decision not to is morally questionable. We shouldn't, as a society, pussyfoot around these issues. Your actions are anti-social. That's not rude, it's just a statement of fact. Or would you rather that wasn't pointed out to you?

Do something of value in 2007! What an opportunity you have!

sorry, I did not realise that in replying to you I had a direct line to the Pope.....perhaps try doing something constructive yourself rather than being so sanctimonious

Edited December 20, 2006 by chrisbrighton

[Guest X-QUORK]

sanc·ti·mo·ni·ous [sangk-tuh-moh-nee-uhs]

adjective 1. making a hypocritical show of religious devotion, piety, righteousness, etc.: They resented his sanctimonious comments on immorality in America.

2. Obsolete. holy; sacred.

Please explain how Mags has been hypocritical by stating that BTL is anti-social. Oh, and whilst you're telling everyone to go forth and be constructive, please explain how BTLing is constructive.

Edited December 20, 2006 by X-QUORK

[eric pebble]

Don't have a pop at someone who's legally made some money, just because you haven't.

I whinged about BTL for years, then realised that you can't beat them. So I bought one.

As everyone on here points out, BTL is not a guaranteed gain. It's a risk.

If you think the system's wrong then organise a protest, write to your MP, whatever. Do something constructive.

All the people I know who have BTL'd are subsidising their tenants by £100-200 pw...

[Europa]

Don't be so bloody stupid. BTL isn't the only way to make money so don't assume that those who have decided not to invest in something so morally bankrupt haven't made money in other socially acceptable ways.

Sell your BTL. There, that's something constructive. Don't you feel better now?

A bit of an over-reaction, Mags

Buying property and witholding it from the rental market would be socially irresponsible.

Buying the IP of life-saving drugs and withholding them from the market would be socially irresponsible.

Trading in crack / conflict diamonds / childrens' organs would be socially irresponsible.

BTL is hardly ripping society apart. You have the option of renting, right? And from what I gather from some of HPC's resident head-bangers, it is hundreds of pounds a week cheaper than buying.

Quel est le problème?

[Guest Yeahbutnocrash]

Unfortunately i would agree with her concerns...I am feeling increasingly bullish about the property market in the SEast and feel very sorry for anyone who has STR...my advice would be to get back on the ladder whilst you can.

Unless you find a 'bargain' it may be worth waiting to see if there's an IR increase in the new year and how the market goes in the first quarter

If there is no rate rise it'll be interesting to see if there's another spurt of HPI though

[Guest chrisbrighton]

sanc·ti·mo·ni·ous [sangk-tuh-moh-nee-uhs]

adjective 1. making a hypocritical show of religious devotion, piety, righteousness, etc.: They resented his sanctimonious comments on immorality in America.

2. Obsolete. holy; sacred.

this seems to fit fairly well with his view IMHO !!

Please explain how Mags has been hypocritical by stating that BTL is anti-social. Oh, and whilst you're telling everyone to go forth and be constructive, please explain how BTLing is constructive.

[Guest]

...people just don't seem to give a f*ck about the consequences of their actions.

Wooah, there are consequences to actions these days? When did that start happening? I can't remember good old Gordy Brown mentioning anything about consequences, next you'll be saying that debt is my own personal responsibility and that I have to pay it myself and within my own lifetime ... hahaha how very 20th century, this is the new world, debt doesn't matter, we're all getting rich, we're all going to have above average wealth.

With regards to the boom continuing, I'm sure it will, in fact I don't see any reason why we can't have 10-15% year on year HPI Ad infinitum. It's not as though we've got any problems that I can see, I look around and I see

• Strong trade surplus

• Booming productivity growth

• Consumers are consuming based on solid growth not some kind of crazy debt fuelled orgy.

• Amazingly strong household savings rates.

• Inflation is very comfortable almost uncomfortably low, and not at all sticky, can't see any reason why they shouldn't ease rates.

• Energy and other commodities are so cheap these days, your average consumer is finding he has so much more of his salary left each month after paying the bill, he just doesn't know what to spend his savings on.

• First time buyers are finding it easy to get into the market.

• Rental yields are so attractive lots of renters are just wasting their money, they could buy so much more house on a mortgage than they can if they rent, because houses are so affordable I can see more and more of them choosing to buy, I mean why rent a cramp 1 bedroom apartment when you can buy a luxury 2 bed house for less.

We also have the great fortune that we have very few people entering retirement over the coming years, we're lucky to have a population boom that is entering its working life, all those extra taxes and so little pension payments to be made, I'm sure the government will respond by cutting tax rates.

And thankfully everyone is predicting booming global markets, excellent strong growth predicted over coming years, just look at the strongly positively sloping yield curves in the major markets, they've been that way for ages.

Oh, wait... hold on a sec.

[Guest X-QUORK]

BTL is hardly ripping society apart. "Earth calling Europa, come in, over." Never has the financial gap between FTB and property-owning boomer been wider, hence the need for Mummy and Daddy to help their thirty-something offspring onto "the ladder".

You have the option of renting, right? And from what I gather from some of HPC's resident head-bangers, it is hundreds of pounds a week cheaper than buying. Being a smart Alec does nothing for your cred Europa, give it a rest. Had you considered that property would be more affordable if it was treated as a home rather than an asset, and that there would be less demand for rental as a result?

[StainlessSteelCat]

Please will someone give me a few crumbs of "good news"

I've done all of my Christmas shopping (most of it in the Jan 06 sales). And my Wii has shipped from Amazon Germany (cheaper delivered than they are here). So I've done my bit for the economy.

Edited December 20, 2006 by greencat

[Guest Charlie The Tramp]

Quel est le problème?

No problem, everthing could not be better. Our future is bright, no more bust according to Gordon, it`s only those lunatics on HPC who are tryng to spoil the best party the UK have enjoyed since VE night.

[Europa]

Being a smart Alec does nothing for your cred Europa, give it a rest. Had you considered that property would be more affordable if it was treated as a home rather than an asset, and that there would be less demand for rental as a result?

Yes, I'm aware of that. But food would be cheaper if Tesco operated as a not-for-profit organisation. I suspect that it isn't going to happen.

I would prefer to see houses treated as homes rather than assets to be bought and sold, but we should also accept that the housing boom also helped us buck the global down turn post-2000.

[DaggaDagga]

X-QUORK: hence the need for Mummy and Daddy to help their thirty-something offspring onto "the ladder".

Perhaps the previous few decades were an oddity in that unskilled peasants could afford to buy. Now we're getting back to how it always was. Tough, but possibly true.

[Guest Charlie The Tramp]

Perhaps the previous few decades were an oddity in that unskilled peasants could afford to buy. Now we're getting back to how it always was. Tough, but possibly true.

Thankfully I was born a peasant at the right time. I had 2 Uncles both working men, one bought in 1920 for £250 and the other bought in 1934 for £300 both new build 3 bed terraced houses, their hands were always dirty and overalls covered in muck. It was only the fear of taking on a 25 year debt that most of the peasants never bought but rented.

[Guest X-QUORK]

Yes, I'm aware of that. But food would be cheaper if Tesco operated as a not-for-profit organisation. I suspect that it isn't going to happen.

I would prefer to see houses treated as homes rather than assets to be bought and sold, but we should also accept that the housing boom also helped us buck the global down turn post-2000.

The housing boom which was fuelled by mega-cheap borrowing on a truely immense scale. IMO, the 2000 global down turn has been delayed rather than avoided.

[Guest Yeahbutnocrash]

If you class BTL landlords as people, then yes.

Landlords who are currently happy with zero or negative yields because they believe the capital growth in an ever-appreciating housing market will make up for it.

But how are they going to eventually liquidate these assets? Who are they going to sell to at still higher prices? Because Joe Average won't be able to afford it - he already can't.

Good point - Maybe they'd sell to another BTLer

[mrpleasant]

...i still see significant potential for capital growth in this area

How? I'm genuinely interested to know how you might make such a judgement.