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London's 'up And Coming' Areas...


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Guest Cletus VanDamme

I think I've missed the zeitgeist. can I ask a question, where are all the doleites, druggies, petty thieves, asylum seekers on benefits and low paid immigrants going to go to when it gentrifies ? Will they all be able to get a place in Luton together ?

There's always Edmonton. That will never be up and coming.

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You are quite right about the Fulham generally, although the Kensington edge of Nottinghill has always been expensive and was built as a rich area. The parts to the West have been gentrified, but there is still a great deal of deptrivation in the Grove end.

I am currently pondering the irony that "multicultural" ares can rarely be described as "cosmopolitan".

Depends what you mean by deprivation. If you mean there are families who don't have shedloads of dosh, drive Beemers and dine at expensive restaurants, then sure, there is deprivation. There aren't any people living rough and destitute and I can tell you that there are council estates in the heart of the "Kensington" edge of Notting Hill.

It'd be nice if people commenting on this area actually knew what they were talking about . . .

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This girl also said that Harlesden was becoming popular with professional people priced out of Notting Hill.

I said what happens then when Harlesden becomes like Notting Hill - do all the middle class professionals start buying in Neasden? She claimed the exodus would stop at Harlesden as that was where the period Victorian houses stop, with most property beyond being 30s semis, which Trustafarian types don't want.

To be fair, this has happened in quite a few areas. Notting Hill was like Harlesden until it became gentrified in the eighties; and this happened to areas like Fulham, Parsons Green etc as the Arabs squeezed out the upper middle classes from Mayfair and Belgravia in the seventies. Even Chelsea was considered a bit grotty in the fifties.

I lived in Notting hill in 1981, lots of run down bedsits etc however most people there were working and not drug dealing or shooting each other for fun, Harlesden is not Notting hill aka 20yrs ago and never will be, it is one of Londons prime toilet suburbs, there is f all transport and you are 100% guarenteed to get muged or worse. Also to note, Notting hill has always been conveniently placed, near proper public transport, next door to one of Londons best parks and very close to Kensington High st for proper shopping, Harlesden has none of these and never will have.

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Depends what you mean by deprivation. If you mean there are families who don't have shedloads of dosh, drive Beemers and dine at expensive restaurants, then sure, there is deprivation. There aren't any people living rough and destitute and I can tell you that there are council estates in the heart of the "Kensington" edge of Notting Hill.

It'd be nice if people commenting on this area actually knew what they were talking about . . .

I do, thanks. I am quite aware that the residents of Notting Hill are not sleeping rough on the streets, but there are quite a number of rough parts - Golborne ward of North Kensington is one of the 10% most deprived wards in UK with higher than average crime and poverty rates.

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Spoke to a very nice upper-middle-class young lady the other day who had scrimped and saved to buy a flat in Harlesden.

For those of you who don't know, Harlesden is a 'vibrant' inner suburb of north London. It has been 'up and coming' for at least ten years. A friend of mine lived there for a while but tired of the constant racial abuse from young men in the streets (she's white) and eventually decided to move when her next door neighbour was murdered in a drugs deal.

Couldn't believe what I'd heard and seen, houses are being snapped up mostly by Africans and Eastern Europeans in Dagenham! Only place in London where you can get a three bed for around £200 000 and be in the City or Canary Wharf within 30 minutes.

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Couldn't believe what I'd heard and seen, houses are being snapped up mostly by Africans and Eastern Europeans in Dagenham! Only place in London where you can get a three bed for around £200 000 and be in the City or Canary Wharf within 30 minutes.

There's one born every minute! :)

What is the difference between "snapped up" and "purchased"? <_<

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Couldn't believe what I'd heard and seen, houses are being snapped up mostly by Africans and Eastern Europeans in Dagenham! Only place in London where you can get a three bed for around £200 000 and be in the City or Canary Wharf within 30 minutes.

i may be being obtuse but not sure of the point you're making?

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QUOTE(Jem @ Dec 4 2006, 10:21 PM) *

Couldn't believe what I'd heard and seen, houses are being snapped up mostly by Africans and Eastern Europeans in Dagenham! Only place in London where you can get a three bed for around £200 000 and be in the City or Canary Wharf within 30 minutes.

i may be being obtuse but not sure of the point you're making?

I think Jem was returning to the original topic - Londons up and coming areas. Is Dagenham one? Hard to believe but possible. I dont know anything East of the City.

Could be handy for City workers. Olympics?

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I think Jem was returning to the original topic - Londons up and coming areas. Is Dagenham one? Hard to believe but possible. I dont know anything East of the City.

Could be handy for City workers. Olympics?

Yep - Dagenham will house the biggest regeneration project in Europe - part of the old Ford plant will be used for the project. There will be a massive technology college built and all sorts of other stuff. I attended a presentation about it a few years back - can't for the life of me remember where or in what context.

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Yep - Dagenham will house the biggest regeneration project in Europe - part of the old Ford plant will be used for the project. There will be a massive technology college built and all sorts of other stuff. I attended a presentation about it a few years back - can't for the life of me remember where or in what context.

Can't remember where or what? How about why?

Perhaps it will be great for a year or two while the money is still being pumped into it, but I'm sceptical of 'regeneration' projects & I doubt their viability once the money goes elsewhere.

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Can't remember where or what? How about why?

Perhaps it will be great for a year or two while the money is still being pumped into it, but I'm sceptical of 'regeneration' projects & I doubt their viability once the money goes elsewhere.

Nope - can't remember why! I used to live in the East End but I think I saw the presentation after I moved on. It was perhaps within an IT context that I saw the presentation, as I'm in IT.

I'm sure someone more local to Dagenham can fill us in.

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I do, thanks. I am quite aware that the residents of Notting Hill are not sleeping rough on the streets, but there are quite a number of rough parts - Golborne ward of North Kensington is one of the 10% most deprived wards in UK with higher than average crime and poverty rates.

er . . . no you don't. Golborne ward may not be the most salubrious part of the Royal Borough but challenge most people to buy a one bed flat in Trellick Tower and see what they say. Frankly, I'd rather live in the Grove than any part of South London . . . least I wouldn't be miles away from a bloody tube station <_<

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I think there is a big difference between 'Up and comming' and 'More expensive' any part of London has the potential to become more expensive however to change the underlying charater of a place needs much more than a few tarted up terraces and a coffee shop or two, take Brixton, they gentrified rows of big victorian terraces but they forgot to bulldoze the masses of tower block council flats further up the road, same in Hackney and many other areas. Unless they get rid of the incumbent undesirable population it will never be Up Market. Notting hill benefited from its proximity to the more desirable parts of London and the fact that the vast tracts of big white victorian terraces were all privatly rented out, not council, this could never be said of Dagenham or Harlesden or many other parts of London, you would need another country to dump off the local inhabitants if you wanted real gentrification.

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There aren't any people living rough and destitute and I can tell you that there are council estates in the heart of the "Kensington" edge of Notting Hill.

It'd be nice if people commenting on this area actually knew what they were talking about . . .

That's because all of the people who want to beg (which most rough livers (in both senses) don't think that they will get as much money from the various people in Harlesden, preferring easier pickings in the more affluent postcodes. I don't think they qualify for a free travelcard for their commute to a doorway in NH and Notting Hill yet (though I am sure Ken is thinking about it to BS his bus passenger loadings up even more).

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Unless they get rid of the incumbent undesirable population it will never be Up Market. Notting hill benefited from its proximity to the more desirable parts of London and the fact that the vast tracts of big white victorian terraces were all privatly rented out, not council, this could never be said of Dagenham or Harlesden or many other parts of London, you would need another country to dump off the local inhabitants if you wanted real gentrification.

The sheer snobbery in some of these comments is breath-taking. I mean "get rid of the incumbent population" ?? :o

I'm sorry but you're talking utter bo11ocks and here's why. Taking Notting Hill as an example, gentrification has taken place after a considerably lengthy period of being "best kept secret". By thi sI mean that NH was home to a fairly arty and bohemian population who were NOT moneyed. They lived cheek-by-jowl with many of the Windrush immigrants who couldn't find accommodation in other parts of London thanks to British racism. That's why you'll find that many Windies of that generation don't have much in the way of nasty things to say about Rachmann as he was at least willing to allow them to rent his properties.

Moving on, the area became a successful hotch-potch of multi-culturalism and was frequented by the likes of the former war minister Profumo during his ill-fated affair with one Christine Keeler. Many aspects of the 60s fashion explosion were born in the area. The likes of Jimi Hendrix socialised (and sadly, died) there. The very "undesirables" you'd want shipped out are the ones who created the f***ing buzz in the first place.

Following that ridiculous film, the area was subject to an explosion in investment which saw dickwads from the home counties, flush with media or banking cash, to buy up property in the area. Nothing wrong with that but truth be told, nigh on 99% of them had and still have nothing to add to the actual fabric of the area in terms of personality or "vibe". They just turn up expecting to buy a ready-made lifestyle and that's it . . . all they have to do is wait. It's almost as if they're expecting a f***ing show.

If it was simply a matter of huge, stucco-fronted Victorian buildings, there are countless areas in Central London you can find that sh*t - not just Notting Hill. People came to the area for what they perceived to be its unique spirit which could be found in fashion boutiques, the music of Rough Trade right thru to Wall of Sound Records, Portobello Market, Notting Hill Carnival which, before you claim forces all the yuppies to f**k off for the weekend, actually has more white people in attendance than black these days. These elements of what made the area so attractive in the first place would be non-existent if they'd tossed out the undesirables.

Gentrification is bullsh*t anywhere else. Just pop along to somewhere like Maida Vale . . . Absolutely heaving with new money. Loads of white, so-called "middle-class" living in those huge mansion blocks on Elgin or Sutherland Avenues. Go along to any of the bars and see just how bland and soulless people with money can be. They sit in shitty pizzerias like the Cochonet in designer dress-down clothes staring blankly into the street praying for anything, ANYTHING to liven up their existence. The only people laughing are the wideboys selling the cocaine to them. Maida Vale never had anything but good housing stock and tree-lined streets and, frankly, that was never enough.

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The sheer snobbery in some of these comments is breath-taking. I mean "get rid of the incumbent population" ??

You missed out a key word from the quote: it was 'the incumbent UNDESIRABLE population'.

You've obviously never lived above a drug dealer who plays mega-bass music until 7am with attendant arguments, fights, car doors slamming etc. I managed to stick it for a year but wouldn't live in a 'vibrant' area again if you paid me to. If that's the 'f***ing buzz' you refer to , I'll take the bland middle class areas anyday!

The poster was merely pointing out that as long as you have people like this in an area on fixed tenancies (ie, in council flats) it is unlikely that new money will move in - hence Harlesden won't become the new Notting Hill. Which is presumably great news for people who enjoy a 'buzz'...

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The sheer snobbery in some of these comments is breath-taking. I mean "get rid of the incumbent population" ??

You missed out a key word from the quote: it was 'the incumbent UNDESIRABLE population'.

You've obviously never lived above a drug dealer who plays mega-bass music until 7am with attendant arguments, fights, car doors slamming etc. I managed to stick it for a year but wouldn't live in a 'vibrant' area again if you paid me to. If that's the 'f***ing buzz' you refer to , I'll take the bland middle class areas anyday!

The poster was merely pointing out that as long as you have people like this in an area on fixed tenancies (ie, in council flats) it is unlikely that new money will move in - hence Harlesden won't become the new Notting Hill. Which is presumably great news for people who enjoy a 'buzz'...

I may have missed out the "undesirable" in my first sentence but I made reference to it all the way through the post. Do you think that council flats are some sort of new phenomenon ? There've been council flats in Notting Hill for more than 40 years and that hasn't stopped W11 becoming the most expensive postcode in the country. In fact many of those same council flats that you seem to think only house scum are selling for £400K so wake up and smell the coffee . . . your type of snobbery is heading for the suburbs and the commuter lines - leave London to those who can deal with a little bit of a buzz

If you prefer the bland and soulless that's your choice but the topic centres around gentrification of areas which, hitherto, have been considered "run down". No I've never lived above a drug dealer - to my knowledge - but one would imagine that if he drew as much attention to himself as you allude to, it's unlikely you'd have had to put up with it for a year as he'd probably have been raided.

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Gentrification is bullsh*t anywhere else. Just pop along to somewhere like Maida Vale . . . Absolutely heaving with new money. Loads of white, so-called "middle-class" living in those huge mansion blocks on Elgin or Sutherland Avenues. Go along to any of the bars and see just how bland and soulless people with money can be. They sit in shitty pizzerias like the Cochonet in designer dress-down clothes staring blankly into the street praying for anything, ANYTHING to liven up their existence. The only people laughing are the wideboys selling the cocaine to them. Maida Vale never had anything but good housing stock and tree-lined streets and, frankly, that was never enough.

corking! :lol:

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leave London to those who can deal with a little bit of a buzz

Is that 'buzz' the sound of the police helicopter as it hovers overhead? :rolleyes::lol:

I take into account your comments about Notting Hill in the old days, but I don't think there are any more 'character' areas like that left. The move to Harlesden by the trustafarians seems to me somewhat desperate - I just think that this whole thing of 'edgy' areas, 'buzz', 'vibrant' etc is generally VI spin in order to entice people into buying slum properties, and those that are foolhardy enough to fall for it have to repeat it to themselves constantly in order to justify their purchase...

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Yep - Dagenham will house the biggest regeneration project in Europe - part of the old Ford plant will be used for the project. There will be a massive technology college built and all sorts of other stuff. I attended a presentation about it a few years back - can't for the life of me remember where or in what context.

if they want to help Dagenham with investment, then they should build an enormous new Thames Barrier out by Southend to prevent the whole Thames estuary from being underwater (or at least flooded 3-4 times a year) in 50 years time.

The whole Thames Gateway project seems to be built on the assumption that we will succeed in averting the consequences of global warming. I'm not so confident.

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if they want to help Dagenham with investment, then they should build an enormous new Thames Barrier out by Southend to prevent the whole Thames estuary from being underwater (or at least flooded 3-4 times a year) in 50 years time.

The whole Thames Gateway project seems to be built on the assumption that we will succeed in averting the consequences of global warming. I'm not so confident.

Good point!

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leave London to those who can deal with a little bit of a buzz

Is that 'buzz' the sound of the police helicopter as it hovers overhead? :rolleyes::lol:

I take into account your comments about Notting Hill in the old days, but I don't think there are any more 'character' areas like that left. The move to Harlesden by the trustafarians seems to me somewhat desperate - I just think that this whole thing of 'edgy' areas, 'buzz', 'vibrant' etc is generally VI spin in order to entice people into buying slum properties, and those that are foolhardy enough to fall for it have to repeat it to themselves constantly in order to justify their purchase...

I'm not disagreeing with your comments on Harlesden - I can't really see it happening either but I don't think it's because the current incumbents are there. Kensal Green and Kensal Rise are simply closer to Notting Hill/Ladbroke Grove and that's why they've begun the gentrification process.

I agree that there aren't any "character" areas left - it really is a matter of somewhere becoming "cool" because it has Victorian properties. How daft is that ? <_< The one everyone was touting was Hoxton - what a sh*thole . . . full of poncey students with sharkfin haircuts wearing vintage Fila tracksuit tops that cost half their student loan drinking in bars playing generic house music at full pelt. . .

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