It Market Booming

[Mrliberty]

The kicker is, a lot of contractors are much less qualified and less capable, yet earn much much more. Maybe it is just a case of being able to talk the talk, but not walk the walk? There are a lot of blaggers in software development these days, reel off a few keywords and bob's your uncle.

True to an extent in some cases.

You have to bear in mind though, that high contractor rates are there to offset the fact that contractors have no job security and give up many rights that employees so often take for granted. That includes no holiday pay, no sick pay, no employer pension rights and as director of a limited company, no right to unemployment benefit if work dries up. I have contracted in the past and have frequently had voids in a year where I had no work that totalled nearly three months - OK if it falls when you want a holiday, but not for much else.

There are a lot of other advantages to contracting, but loosing the above rights is one of the things that made IR35 such a scandal. although it has to be said that in the "global economy" (read that as most of the above benefits disapearing even for permanent employees), contracting becomes more attractive day by day.

I have to agree though, it really does look like IT is picking up. Lots of jobs out there at rates I certainly wasn't seeing a couple of years ago.

[messychopper]

True to an extent in some cases.

You have to bear in mind though, that high contractor rates are there to offset the fact that contractors have no job security and give up many rights that employees so often take for granted. That includes no holiday pay, no sick pay, no employer pension rights and as director of a limited company, no right to unemployment benefit if work dries up. I have contracted in the past and have frequently had voids in a year where I had no work that totalled nearly three months - OK if it falls when you want a holiday, but not for much else.

There are a lot of other advantages to contracting, but loosing the above rights is one of the things that made IR35 such a scandal. although it has to be said that in the "global economy" (read that as most of the above benefits disapearing even for permanent employees), contracting becomes more attractive day by day.

I have to agree though, it really does look like IT is picking up. Lots of jobs out there at rates I certainly wasn't seeing a couple of years ago.

IR35 made me leave the UK

[Mrliberty]

IR35 made me leave the UK

I know several people who went overseas as a result of IR35. What really got me was they were all extremely intelligent guys who were at the top of their game. Although I supposes brain drain is nothing new in the UK.....

[JohnG]

Ah, IR35. The voluntary tax for those who can't be bothered to operate their businesses in a business like manner.

[messychopper]

I know several people who went overseas as a result of IR35. What really got me was they were all extremely intelligent guys who were at the top of their game. Although I supposes brain drain is nothing new in the UK.....

CCIE doesn't seem to get paid as much here but they'll get to keep most of what they earn.

I'm sure there are lots of Polish and Romanian CCIE's to take my place

[the end is a bit nigher]

Agreed - I work in Harrogate for a well known national cash machine network and we are really struggling to find the right IT staff at the moment!

Having recently applied for work there, I think they are maybe aiming too high for some of their positions!

One of the main benefits is my new colleagues, who are much nicer than the competitive, arrogant, know-it-all tw@ts who are so common in IT.

That'll be me!

Edited September 16, 2006 by the end is nigh

[messychopper]

Having recently applied for work there, I think they are maybe aiming too high for some of their positions!

Thats very much an American thing, the bar is set so high by a few clueless individuals.

[the end is a bit nigher]

Just to put some pictures in there for you -

Overall demand for IT staff since September 1999 (scroll down for the graph) -

I would agree with this - my evidence is mch less scientific but 2 years ago there were circa 11,000 jobs on jobserve, in march this year there were 27,000, yesterday there were 42,000

of course, some don't exist, some are duplicate, but it is broadly a like for like comparison

Right now I am considering my options, and contracting is looking like a good option for me given the large difference in pay between permanent and contracting.

The difference is for a reason though!

The kicker is, a lot of contractors are much less qualified and less capable, yet earn much much more.

From personal experience and with only a few exceptions, the contractors I know are far better at getting jobs done than permie staff. Those permies who are good eventually become contractors.

Edited September 16, 2006 by the end is nigh

[Skipton Crash]

Having recently applied for work there, I think they are maybe aiming too high for some of their positions!

Well, what sort of area do you work in? We are expanding fairly quickly at the moment and if there are any vacancies relevant I will forward them on to you.

[Nomadd]

IT is the perfect service to outsource.

First it doesn't take a braniac, most people fell for the notion that someone capable of programming was smart when of course we all know the average programmer was a failed doctor or engineer.

Second, is that relatively little experience is required to be a competent programmer. A 25 year old C++ programmer can act pretty autonomously which says a lot. Would you trust a 25 year old engineer to manage a billion dollar project - the answer is no.

Third is that there are millions of bright young Indian and Chinese graduates out there with the skills to do what someone in the west wants 60k for. They get paid a tenth that and can do the job as effectively

Of course none of this is true of a surgeon or an engineering consultant. So bad luck IT the table turned and the whizkids were found to have no clothes!!!

Hmm... Which planet do you live on?

I was an Engineer in the 1980s - and this country didn't seem to be too kind to them in those days. Glad I left it and went into IT: it's been a much better paid and longer-term career. I've met many other "non failed" doctors and engineers who wished they had jumped into IT when I did.

And have you seen how many engineering jobs we've lost over the last 30 years? Oh, and how many new doctors are struggling to find a job? I don't mind you wearing blinkers, but at least wear them consitently. It's not just IT thats outsourced (or insourced pay pulling in immigrants on low pay.)

Would I "trust a 25 year old engineer to manage a billion dollar project "? No. But then niether would I trust a 25 year old computer programmer to perfom a billion dollar software project... You really need to get a better grip on all engineering, as the problems - and people required to solve them - are similar.

Oh, and as regards "millions of bright young Indian and Chinese graduates" - yes, you are right. They are in IT and medicine and engineering. In other words - all perfect to outsource (or insource cheaply.) Try looking at the growing numbers of people going overseas for NHS treatment, for example.

And finally, to "So bad luck IT the table turned and the whizkids were found to have no clothes!!!" - well, I've pulled £2 million in 18 years of freelance IT, and the market is still busy (as the original poster stated.) Damn glad I didn't become a doctor or stay an engineer! And take a look on Jobserve - there are still plenty of £500/£600+ per day jobs in IT for people who can be bothered to keep up. Sure, those aren't the crazy rates of "the good old days", but £150k a year is more than enough for me. Then again, I've never been much of a Brainiac...

Nomadd

[BandWagon]

I would be far more worried today if I was a pommie tiler, plasterer or brickie, wanting to charge somewhere between £130 and £200 a day.

Then finding Polish builders are happy to work harder and do a better quality of work for £60 a day.

I have friends hiring Polish builders, very happy with their work, and they actually arrive on the job.

Unlike British builders who think they're doing you a massive favour by just pitching up.

Then spending the day taking tea breaks and buggering off at 4 in the afternoon.

I just can't wait for all these eager Polish guys to get some plumbing skills and a corgi certification under their belts.

Now there's a good idea for a business.

Good luck to them.

[Keith.G]

IT is the perfect service to outsource.

First it doesn't take a braniac, most people fell for the notion that someone capable of programming was smart when of course we all know the average programmer was a failed doctor or engineer.

Second, is that relatively little experience is required to be a competent programmer. A 25 year old C++ programmer can act pretty autonomously which says a lot. Would you trust a 25 year old engineer to manage a billion dollar project - the answer is no.

Third is that there are millions of bright young Indian and Chinese graduates out there with the skills to do what someone in the west wants 60k for. They get paid a tenth that and can do the job as effectively

Of course none of this is true of a surgeon or an engineering consultant. So bad luck IT the table turned and the whizkids were found to have no clothes!!!

Business is not neccesarily about employing whizkids - A lot of IT tasks these days require sound decision making often based on experience

Also it can be about following strict procedures already laid down and being good at working in a team

The point about working remotely and being as effective is open to debate!

Edited September 16, 2006 by Keith.G

[Golden Shower]

I know several people who went overseas as a result of IR35. What really got me was they were all extremely intelligent guys who were at the top of their game. Although I supposes brain drain is nothing new in the UK.....

I wouldn't call it brain drain anymore, we're importing the talent from oveseas.

Ah, IR35. The voluntary tax for those who can't be bothered to operate their businesses in a business like manner.

Yeah, never really contracted before so I had a contractor explain the IR35 to me. It ain't that bad to be honest, there's ways around it and from what I gather it's a case of managing your contracts better. A good accountant will know a way around it.

[messychopper]

I wouldn't call it brain drain anymore, we're importing the talent from oveseas.

Yeah, never really contracted before so I had a contractor explain the IR35 to me. It ain't that bad to be honest, there's ways around it and from what I gather it's a case of managing your contracts better. A good accountant will know a way around it.

I see the UK IT salaries are much better than the 03/04 lows but in truth I never really liked the place anyway, always was too expensive with crap weather and poor health service.

[JohnG]

I wouldn't call it brain drain anymore, we're importing the talent from oveseas.

Yeah, never really contracted before so I had a contractor explain the IR35 to me. It ain't that bad to be honest, there's ways around it and from what I gather it's a case of managing your contracts better. A good accountant will know a way around it.

You're nearly there.

The point is not to dodge the tax, but to operate your business in a business like manner so that the tax doesn't apply. A subtle but important difference.

Loads of help & information available from the PCG, of course - www.pcg.org.uk

[the end is a bit nigher]

Yeah, never really contracted before so I had a contractor explain the IR35 to me. It ain't that bad to be honest, there's ways around it and from what I gather it's a case of managing your contracts better. A good accountant will know a way around it.

Don't believe that for a moment - I know a growing list of people who thoughtthey were outside IR35 - slowly but surely the IR are catching up with them and they are being told to repay thousands

[OzzMosiz]

I work in IT and we are expecting some job losses due to a merger. Just been told that redundacy is now 4 weeks per every year of service.

Very tempted to take VR.

[the end is a bit nigher]

Well, what sort of area do you work in? We are expanding fairly quickly at the moment and if there are any vacancies relevant I will forward them on to you.

Thanks

If you PM me I'll let you know what I was after.

[slurms mackenzie]

I just did the exact same after seven years at the same place, took VR, part of the reason was confidence in the market.

was offered a contracting job on twice the salary after 3 days (turned that down as i wanted to broaden my skills), got a permanent position after a month (same salary but new skill set).

After watching other people being forced out through without VR haven't regretted it, and i promised myself that if it ever came to that situation again i'd always take vr over the dehumanising process of watching everone reapply for their jobs.

Not sure what bit of the market you operate in, but there seems to be a decent number of development jobs out there (I daren't use the phrase booming)

[Levy process]

IT is the perfect service to outsource.

First it doesn't take a braniac, most people fell for the notion that someone capable of programming was smart when of course we all know the average programmer was a failed doctor or engineer.

Second, is that relatively little experience is required to be a competent programmer. A 25 year old C++ programmer can act pretty autonomously which says a lot. Would you trust a 25 year old engineer to manage a billion dollar project - the answer is no.

Third is that there are millions of bright young Indian and Chinese graduates out there with the skills to do what someone in the west wants 60k for. They get paid a tenth that and can do the job as effectively

Of course none of this is true of a surgeon or an engineering consultant. So bad luck IT the table turned and the whizkids were found to have no clothes!!!

I've seen this sort of stuff trotted out a lot over the years.

It is of course true that there are Indian and Chinese graduates who can do IT roles, and will work for a fraction of wages in the West.

But most of the rest of what you've written with, I'd totally disagree with:

I don't know where you work, but in the places I've worked, no way would a 25 year old C++ programmer be able to act autonomously. So it's certainly not true across the board. In situations where someone so young was given autonomy, the output they produced would be highly scrutinised at the end of the project.

The notion that a programmer is a "failed doctor or engineer" is utter tosh as a general statement. The trouble is that there is such a wide spectrum of jobs called "programmer", and even within each type of programming job, there is a wide, wide spectrum of difficulty. Some "programmers" are merely turning the handle churning out shoddy bog standard stuff, which isn't mission critical, and nobody cares that it doesn't work. Others are top minds, working on highly complex problems, and producing software that is safety critical or business critical to the tune of billions a year.

I know a lot of programmers, a lot of engineers, and quite a few medical doctors. There are clever and not so clever people working in all these areas, and the notion that all doctors are academically superior to all programmers is frankly ridiculous. I've met a lot of very very average people working as GPs. No harm in that, but the notion that "all doctors are clever" is a primary school playground notion. As for engineers, there are a lot of idiots doing that too. And science and engineering is not paid that highly in this country either, which proves automatically that there are plenty people able to do it at the required standard.

Your post sounds like you've got sour grapes over something relating to programming in the past. If not, I can't imagine why you're writing this sort of thing. If you want proof that programming and software require people far cleverer than your average GP, check out the works of people like Knuth and Rivest. These sort of people are smarter than most engineers or doctors I've ever met. (And smarter than me, and, from the sort of thing you've written above, smarter than you too I'd guess).

Edited September 18, 2006 by Levy process

[mallory]

I just did the exact same after seven years at the same place, took VR, part of the reason was confidence in the market.

was offered a contracting job on twice the salary after 3 days (turned that down as i wanted to broaden my skills), got a permanent position after a month (same salary but new skill set).

After watching other people being forced out through without VR haven't regretted it, and i promised myself that if it ever came to that situation again i'd always take vr over the dehumanising process of watching everone reapply for their jobs.

Not sure what bit of the market you operate in, but there seems to be a decent number of development jobs out there (I daren't use the phrase booming)

i've taken VR twice and compulsory redundancy once, in 20+years in IT [started at 18]

always been a few weeks of worry followed by new job, new challenges, new people to meet, expanded skill set, equal or more money...

been good for me professionally and more importantly, personally...

change is as good as a rest, there seems to be plenty of jobs out there [i'm a DBA/developer]... if you are good and experienced you'll be alright... if you aint any good why spend your life struggling at something you aint suited to, find something you enjoy..

and i completely agree about the dehumanising process of reapplying for your job, in competition with your colleagues, maybe even friends...

[Reg Trainers]

Hmm... Which planet do you live on?

I was an Engineer in the 1980s - and this country didn't seem to be too kind to them in those days. Glad I left it and went into IT: it's been a much better paid and longer-term career. I've met many other "non failed" doctors and engineers who wished they had jumped into IT when I did.

And have you seen how many engineering jobs we've lost over the last 30 years? Oh, and how many new doctors are struggling to find a job? I don't mind you wearing blinkers, but at least wear them consitently. It's not just IT thats outsourced (or insourced pay pulling in immigrants on low pay.)

Would I "trust a 25 year old engineer to manage a billion dollar project "? No. But then niether would I trust a 25 year old computer programmer to perfom a billion dollar software project... You really need to get a better grip on all engineering, as the problems - and people required to solve them - are similar.

Oh, and as regards "millions of bright young Indian and Chinese graduates" - yes, you are right. They are in IT and medicine and engineering. In other words - all perfect to outsource (or insource cheaply.) Try looking at the growing numbers of people going overseas for NHS treatment, for example.

And finally, to "So bad luck IT the table turned and the whizkids were found to have no clothes!!!" - well, I've pulled £2 million in 18 years of freelance IT, and the market is still busy (as the original poster stated.) Damn glad I didn't become a doctor or stay an engineer! And take a look on Jobserve - there are still plenty of £500/£600+ per day jobs in IT for people who can be bothered to keep up. Sure, those aren't the crazy rates of "the good old days", but £150k a year is more than enough for me. Then again, I've never been much of a Brainiac...

Nomadd

Maybe you are a brainiac (maybe not), but you're a crushing bore to boot. That whole post all about you and how great it is being you, get a grip man.

[still_renting]

Strong for particular areas or skills ?

Personally IT is boring the hell out of me, time for a career change... any ideas ?

Property development? ! ? ... just kidding

I agree and hear this time and time again - IT is as dull as F... and you have to keep retraining all the time just to stand still or get overtaken by new grads with newer skills willing to work for a pittance.

IT jobs are the most boring jobs ever and the salaries are over exagerrated - wish I'd train to become a plumber or electrician. My mate runs a home decorating business and is raking it in - has been for years now! if you got the aptitude go and learn decorating mate!

[Bifta]

Hmm... Which planet do you live on?

I was an Engineer in the 1980s - and this country didn't seem to be too kind to them in those days. Glad I left it and went into IT: it's been a much better paid and longer-term career. I've met many other "non failed" doctors and engineers who wished they had jumped into IT when I did.

And have you seen how many engineering jobs we've lost over the last 30 years? Oh, and how many new doctors are struggling to find a job? I don't mind you wearing blinkers, but at least wear them consitently. It's not just IT thats outsourced (or insourced pay pulling in immigrants on low pay.)

Would I "trust a 25 year old engineer to manage a billion dollar project "? No. But then niether would I trust a 25 year old computer programmer to perfom a billion dollar software project... You really need to get a better grip on all engineering, as the problems - and people required to solve them - are similar.

Oh, and as regards "millions of bright young Indian and Chinese graduates" - yes, you are right. They are in IT and medicine and engineering. In other words - all perfect to outsource (or insource cheaply.) Try looking at the growing numbers of people going overseas for NHS treatment, for example.

And finally, to "So bad luck IT the table turned and the whizkids were found to have no clothes!!!" - well, I've pulled £2 million in 18 years of freelance IT, and the market is still busy (as the original poster stated.) Damn glad I didn't become a doctor or stay an engineer! And take a look on Jobserve - there are still plenty of £500/£600+ per day jobs in IT for people who can be bothered to keep up. Sure, those aren't the crazy rates of "the good old days", but £150k a year is more than enough for me. Then again, I've never been much of a Brainiac...

Nomadd

£600 a day isn't £150,000 a year, nor would a contractor consider themselves to have a an annual wage. Most top end contracts are £400 / £450.

[Levy process]

I agree and hear this time and time again - IT is as dull as F... and you have to keep retraining all the time just to stand still or get overtaken by new grads with newer skills willing to work for a pittance.

IT jobs are the most boring jobs ever and the salaries are over exagerrated - wish I'd train to become a plumber or electrician. My mate runs a home decorating business and is raking it in - has been for years now! if you got the aptitude go and learn decorating mate!

That's one take on it.

But you are just talking about some of the types of IT jobs available. A lot of software development is done using techniques which have built up over decades. Sure, there is always stuff to keep up with, but this "retrain every year" idea doesn't apply to a lot of software jobs. Retraining each year is only required for using particular specific products in a particular type of environment. I know well paid C++ developers who haven't "retrained" for 25 years. They keep up to date with the journals and latest ideas, but it's not the sort of picture you paint of having to start from a standing start every few years.

Some plumbers and electricians do well. A lot of them don't. It all depends on how good they are at getting business.

If you want to make a living doing decorating, fine, good on you. But if you think IT is boring, then personally I can't wait for you to get out and do something else. I can't be bothered with those who don't want to do it clogging up the profession.