Moroccan Property Hype

[catara]

In 1 year a good apartment in Florida will go for about £50000. At the same time or a bit later a good apartment in mailand Spain or in Canary Islands will go for about the same amount.

The £50000 apartments that they are selling now in Morocco will be at most £20000 if all the risks are considered.

So why on Earth would anybody pay now £50000 for a small apartment in Morocco, an unstable country with no infrastructure and imense poverty?

[The Soup Dragon]

BigLog:- You sited wealthy Moroccan's not touching Saidia and by doing so are inferring that Saidia isn't a good investment. Remember that Saidia is only open to foreign investors. That explains why the wealthy Moroccan's aren't investing there.

You also mention that if DogBox flew to Morocco for even one day his views would change. Balloney! I didn't want to see Saidia and other parts of Morocco through the rose tinted spectacles that agents provide, so i went there and travelled the country for a fortnight myself and came to the conclusion that Morocco was indeed a good place to invest. The people are very friendly. At no point did I feel threatened, on the contrary, I found that they Moroccan's were looking out for me. I recall walking along the street, not knowing that my passport, driving licence and other documentation was about to fall out my back pack. Two people in cars were beebing their horn and pointing to my back pack and a pedestrian did the same. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with locals in Larache, Saidia, Asilah, Tangier and Fez.

BrickingIt: You said "I know someone who visited Morocco and didn't fancy the place as a holiday home much."

One person didn't like it, so what? Place I'm buying isn't the sort of place I'd want to holiday, but that doesn't bother me as its an investment.

You also mentioned resales. Remember the properties haven't been built. It'll take time to see what happens with happens with resale market. There are risks with any investment and the key for potential investors is to accurately assess the risk to reward ratio. This is something that DogBox, myself and others feel we have done. We are aware our investment carries more risk than, say, similar property in France, but we have also assessed the potential price rises to more than offset these. I think we'll just have to agree that our evaluation of the risk reward ratio is different. That said it is encouraging to see the price rises experienced in Saidia town itself and neighbouring areas. These are largely resales.

Think we are all agreed about bank managers.

[dogbox]

So can we take it that all those people who thought they might buy up Morocco will now

realise there are better things to do with their money?

Its all about a spread. Morocco isn'nt my only investment you know. I have all sorts of safe investments.

Dont forget the build time is 3 years coupled with 40% commitment from me which is a major plus. Most developers complete within 18 months so there is limited time for upside and resale.

Some investors want a 'Buy Label' with thier investments, but in the end there is always a compromise somewhere. For example my investing in Germany is nice and safe but has downside in the form of high unemployment, high wage costs.

Investing in the safe Bahamian market has downside in the shape of Hurricanes and sea level rises.

Ive looked at Slovenia which is nice and safe with a large middle class but the prices have already rocketed unless you buy miles from anywhere.

Estonia - the lowest population density in Europe so only the very best located stock is worth buying, and that isnt easy to come by at the right price.

I could put some into a Standard Life global property fund. Nice and safe but it is massively weighted towards the US and UK market the potential for upside is low.

I consider other property funds focused on Europe such as Close Brothers, but in the small print one finds they take a huge slice of the gains over a low threshold.

Other property markets such as Bulgaria dont appeal to me because resale can be an issue as a direct result of oversupply.

Italy - Ive been offered something at the right price but the developer is very small. Again always a compromise somewhere.

Montenegro - love it but I cant find a developer willing to work off a small deposit, so this is too risky for me.

I am cautious but every now and again I like a punt. Saidia is a punt, but one with an unusually sound foundation, which is why they are proving so popular.

Competetion is low and will remain so for a few years.

[BigLog]

BigLog:- You sited wealthy Moroccan's not touching Saidia and by doing so are inferring that Saidia isn't a good investment. Remember that Saidia is only open to foreign investors. That explains why the wealthy Moroccan's aren't investing there.

You also mention that if DogBox flew to Morocco for even one day his views would change. Balloney!

Think we are all agreed about bank managers.

I'm aware of foreign investors only for Saidia, but that doesn't stop anyone else going in. And besides, do you really think there isn't *any* way around that for a Moroccan ??

Also, I wasn't suggesting that Dogbox's views would change, I was merely giving what I would have thought to be very sound advice - i.e. to go and see with your own eyes. How anyone can think that is bad advice is beyond me. You live in the UK, there's a house you see on the internet, do you buy it from pictures ?? Or heresay ?? Or Hype ?? I'd like to think you'd hop in your car and go and see it !

Think we are all agreed about bank managers.

Agree.

Edited September 15, 2006 by BigLog

[dogbox]

In 1 year a good apartment in Florida will go for about £50000. At the same time or a bit later a good apartment in mailand Spain or in Canary Islands will go for about the same amount.

The £50000 apartments that they are selling now in Morocco will be at most £20000 if all the risks are considered.

So why on Earth would anybody pay now £50000 for a small apartment in Morocco, an unstable country with no infrastructure and imense poverty?

The Canaries are chav invested with no decent beaches (apart from Fortuventera). Ive been and it was like Blackpool with sun.

Florida I dont know but I cant imagine appartments within a development that has three 18 hole couses set along its own 7km beach go for 50K unless they are aimed at the chavvy chintz package holiday market. Also competetion is fierce as there are thousands of developments in Florida but only a handful of large luxury developments in Morocco.

Its all about location. Of course much of Morocco wouldnt command high prices but some parts will. I have found thousands of villas for rent in Morocco costing thousands per week, indeed some are £20000 per week.

Too many people out there have no immagination.

You can keep chav invested Eastender Spain. Morocco will be a significantly more upmarket experience of that I am certain.

Five years from now people will kick themselves for letting this one pass them by.

[dogbox]

This point about my not visiting;

1) A good freind and fellow property investor did the visit on this one. Sometimes I take the role, other times him. I trust his judgement.

2) Visits dont help. I found a plot in the Bahamas and reserved in 2003 for $140000. However, on visiting I withdrew as I was put off by the poverty. Now the same plots change hands for $800000. This has happened to me on other occasions.

I knew upon first reading about Saidia that a visit was pointless as its just a giant building site.

Seeing traditional Morocco has no relevance to this site as its the first of its kind.

It would be like seeing the desert when building first began in Dubai, pointless.

OTHER BUYERS HAVE SAID THEY FOUND THE TRIP DID NOT SWAY THEM ONE WAY OR ANOTHER BECAUSE ITS JUST A BUILDING SITE ON A PRETTY BEACH.

[catara]

>>The Canaries are chav invested with no decent beaches (apart from Fortuventera). Ive been and it was like Blackpool with sun.

Fuerteventura has the best beaches one can imagine!! Jandia is the among the best beaches in the world.

Tenerife has mountains and sun and some acceptable beaches. Same for Gran Canaria.

Besides, Canary Islands are 12 month destinations, with 22 Celsius in December and 28 in August.

To compare them with Blakpool is a very shallow comment...

>Florida I dont know but I cant imagine appartments within a development that has three 18 hole couses set along its own 7km beach go for 50K unless they >are aimed at the chavvy chintz package holiday market.

In Florida there will always be tourists. The current prices are extremely high but with the upcoming price crash they will become affordable.

> Also competetion is fierce as there are thousands of developments in Florida but only a handful of large luxury developments in Morocco.

How many tourists go to Florida and how many to Morocoo? IN MOrocoo there will always be the risk of:

- being robbed

- islamic uprising

- cheap flights stop flying

etc,etc,etc

>Its all about location. Of course much of Morocco wouldnt command high prices but some parts will. I have found thousands of villas for rent in Morocco >costing thousands per week, indeed some are £20000 per week.

In your dreama maybe.

>You can keep chav invested Eastender Spain. Morocco will be a significantly more upmarket experience of that I am certain.

MOprocoo is expensive now just because people compare its prices with the ones in Spain. BUt the Spain prices will crush badly in the next years and then the current Morocoo prices will crush as well. But Spain will survive, whereas Morocoo will be destroyed, that will the difference.

Who would be so stupid to pay same prices for an apartment in Spain or one in Morocoo?

The only exotic place to invest I think is Cape Verde, after doing the homework.

[The Soup Dragon]

Catara

Cape Verde isn't without its risks. Being close to hurricane path, having poor infrastructure and fairly poor construction standards spring to mind.

[catara]

>Cape Verde isn't without its risks. Being close to hurricane path, having poor infrastructure and fairly poor construction standards spring to mind.

I know it has bad everything, but I would say it offers something a bit different from other places in Europe. This means a year-round place to visit, warm wather, etc.

Morocco does not offer anything different as compared to Spain, Greece or Cyprus.

Except the big risks, very bad infrastructure and extreme poverty, which cannot be really points of attractions.

[The Soup Dragon]

Cape Verde doesn't strike me as a bad investment, and as you say, weather is terrific all year round.

Moroccos' climate is also geared to long rental season (almost full year for developments like Saidia which will attract golfers and yachting folk well after peak season has passed.) Morocco's infrastructure is good and major improvements are being made to roads between key sites. (Fez to Oujda road for example is fine, but Government is building a motorway to run from one to the other.) Existing motorways linking Tangier to Fez, Rabat, Casablanca etc. are terrific. The opening of the skies to budget airlines is also making Morocco more accessible and I expect there will also be budget fights that will operate internally. Prior to visiting Morocco one of my main areas of concern was the impact of poverty and how the locals would embrace tourism. After all, if tourists don't feel welcome they won't return. I saw quite a bit of poverty when I was over, but everyone I spoke to was friendly and embraced me as a tourist. Had that not been the case I'd have found somewhere else to invest.

That's me off - have a good weekend.

[euroscooby]

Actually a decent read between big_log who i disagree with and dogbox/soup dragon who i do. Then we get catara and a reasonable discussion heads off into playground antics.

Example "Who would be so stupid to pay same prices for an apartment in Spain or one in Morocoo?"

This is just plain rude given the thread is full of people saying they have bought. And you know what I am that stupid too.

Not sure where this Morocoo is but leaving that aside the prices are in NO way like for like comparable.

There is no winner in these threads all you can hope for is reasoned arguments. Lets get back to those, they were well worth the time.

[catara]

>Example "Who would be so stupid to pay same prices for an apartment in Spain or one in Morocoo?"

>This is just plain rude given the thread is full of people saying they have bought. And you know what I am that stupid too.

It is not rude at all. The beach front in Spain is now more than 150000 Euros, the one in Morocco is 75000 Euro. At this prices Morocco definitily is attractive

and this is the reason why Fadesa could ask that incredibly high amount of money for a 1 bedroom in MOrocco.

The prices in Spain won't go any higher so I do not expect the ones in MOrocco to go higher. The prices in both countries might grow with inflation but this does not offer any

profit to investors.

[euroscooby]

Your point maybe valid. I still feel calling people with a view "stupid" is actually quite rude. Still, each to their own.

Edited September 15, 2006 by euroscooby

[morocshock]

This thread has been great fun to read, the best bit is not one of you know a bit about Morocco or its people, I suggest you all take history lessons and learn more about Morocco and its people.

[BigLog]

This thread has been great fun to read, the best bit is not one of you know a bit about Morocco or its people, I suggest you all take history lessons and learn more about Morocco and its people.

Erm, not quite darling.

[dogbox]

OK IM ISSUING A CHALLENGE:

Can anybody show me something comparable to £180000 villa in Saidia?

Here are the key features of LeJardinDeFleur / Saidia;

1) 3 bed detatched, 2 baths, roof solarium covering the entire property

2) Own pool

3) Built into the golf course and THREE 18 hole courses within the devlopment (note use of the word 'within')

4) Air conditioned

5) Fully furnished and ready to go to include Siemens appliances, garden furniture, the lot

6) Own garden - not shared at all

7) Saidia has its own 7 km beach (dont give me comparisons to developments 'near' a public beach)

8) 8+ upmarket hotels (this further underpins investor security, big companies think its a goer)

9) Mutiple designer shops including Gucci, Boss, Armarni, Marie Eaux, Mango, Budha Bars etc (show me a similarly priced devlopment with this)

10) A year round season

11) An ultra modern 'as good as it gets' 840 berth marina capable of taking the biggest yatchs

12) Huge array of sporting facilities inc an Olympic standard pool

13) 2 Carrefour supermarkets (not a small Spar etc)

14) Set within a nature reserve

15) 3 HOUR FLIGHT FROM UK (coupled with long season dont forget)

16) A health centre

17) 20 exclusive beach clubs

18) A traditional bazzar

19) High security

20) A choice of ON - SITE rental agencies

21) On - site resales agent

22) Maintenance of pool and gardens provided

23) Site owned by Spains second biggest developer

24) ONLY 40% DEPOSIT CAPITAL AT RISK UNTIL BUILT IN 3 YEARS

BEAT THAT AT £180000!

I guarantee you wont

Edited September 16, 2006 by dogbox

[mmv]

I too have noticed that some of the Moroccan investors hype up Morocco while slating other areas such as Dubai.

The hyping is simply a way of trying to convince themselves and others that they have done the right thing by choosing Morocco – this is human nature. People make a decision believing it to be the right one and try to remind themselves that they did the right thing.

I have invested in Dubai but still respect others who opted for Morocco, which could well turn out to be great choice. What is interesting is the way some congratulate themselves on a great investment decision while showing disrespect to others – without really knowing how things will actually turn out.

I too looked at Dubai before looking to invest in Morocco. Yes people have made money in Dubai but Morocco is at the stage where investors can make more money by investing now as the returns are greater than Dubai. You do not have to visit the country and ask yourself why are companies from Dubai investing in Morocco.

[BigLog]

OK IM ISSUING A CHALLENGE:

Can anybody show me something comparable to £180000 villa in Saidia?

Here are the key features of LeJardinDeFleur / Saidia;

1) 3 bed detatched, 2 baths, roof solarium covering the entire property

2) Own pool

3) Built into the golf course and THREE 18 hole courses within the devlopment (note use of the word 'within')

4) Air conditioned

5) Fully furnished and ready to go to include Siemens appliances, garden furniture, the lot

6) Own garden - not shared at all

7) Saidia has its own 7 km beach (dont give me comparisons to developments 'near' a public beach)

8) 8+ upmarket hotels (this further underpins investor security, big companies think its a goer)

9) Mutiple designer shops including Gucci, Boss, Armarni, Marie Eaux, Mango, Budha Bars etc (show me a similarly priced devlopment with this)

10) A year round season

11) An ultra modern 'as good as it gets' 840 berth marina capable of taking the biggest yatchs

12) Huge array of sporting facilities inc an Olympic standard pool

13) 2 Carrefour supermarkets (not a small Spar etc)

14) Set within a nature reserve

15) 3 HOUR FLIGHT FROM UK (coupled with long season dont forget)

16) A health centre

17) 20 exclusive beach clubs

18) A traditional bazzar

19) High security

20) A choice of ON - SITE rental agencies

21) On - site resales agent

22) Maintenance of pool and gardens provided

23) Site owned by Spains second biggest developer

24) ONLY 40% DEPOSIT CAPITAL AT RISK UNTIL BUILT IN 3 YEARS

BEAT THAT AT £180000!

I guarantee you wont

You forget ONE thing.

QUALITY

[catara]

I too looked at Dubai before looking to invest in Morocco. Yes people have made money in Dubai but Morocco is at the stage where investors can make more money by investing now as the returns are greater than Dubai. You do not have to visit the country and ask yourself why are companies from Dubai investing in Morocco.

Morocco and Cape Verde are already overpriced. This is because the builders compared prices in Morocoo with the ones in mainland Spain and the

prices in Cape Verde with the ones in Canary Islands and Caraibeans.

BUt as we all should be awared of, the overall real estate prices will decrease in the next few years as interest rates go up and many people will have problems paying mortgages for their primary residences. So prices in Morocco can only stay stable or decrease in the next 2-3 years.

I do not care what company invest in Morocco, they are taking advantage of uninformed people. Look at USA where people are now having a dissastrous awakening...

[mmv]

Agree that it is disappointing that little has been discussed about political stability of Morocco and the threat of terrorism. Those investing in Morocco imply that everywhere in the world is now unsafe, so why worry excessivley about Morocco. However, the problem is one of perception. If Joe Bloggs beleives that Morocco is full of scary people, and that he and his family are more at risk of getting blown up there than elsewhere, then he will not go on holiday there.

There are 'some' parallels between Morocco and Egypt / Turkey. These are also muslim countries where terrorists have targetted the tourist industry. However, the difference is that Egypt and Turkey are already well known holiday destinations, so it would take significant terrorist activity over a period of time to knock the long term tourist numbers. However, Morocco needs to build its reputation and cannot really afford any adverse terrorist activity.

There is a real threat of terrorism in Morocco. Just a couple of weeks ago, 56 people were arrested for plotting hits against tourist sites. There are a couple of fundamental Islamic groups (one legal, the other not) who are also gaining in popularity. However, there are many plus points about the country and as long as the King and government can continue its rocky road to democracy without leading to destabiliation, then investing in Morocco could prove fruitful.

Would be very interested in anyone elses views on Morocco and its future.

/quote]

From an investors point of view if the King is pushing to increase tourism and the fact that he has a big say in running the country then I am sure he will do his utmost to secure his projects are not derailled. From a tourist point of view what sells morocco is the weather and the facilities that it provides and this is what will sell for example the development in Saidia where all the facilities and shops will be available for tourists not to even venture out of the complex.

[dogbox]

the overall real estate prices will decrease in the next few years as interest rates go up

The World population is expanding. Moreover, hitherto poor Eastern Europeans wealth is rapidly growing. I hear many E European voices on holls than was the case 10 years ago.

These people will add hugely to the price pressure on finite beach - front quality developments.

People in the main said B2L in the UK was folly when it first came about. Yet again many discount the trend in foreign investing at thier cost. Just look at the number of magazine and TV channels that have sprung - up in the last 24 months.

Yes there is a risk of terrorism, but in the end people have short confused memories. When they choose a holiday destination many will be simply blown - away by these new Moroccan mega - resorts, so close to home yet with a touch of the African - exotique!

With all things new the crowd fail to spot the trends.

Catara, whilst I welcome vigorous debate you are undoubtably of pessimistic fibre.

Only 4years ago people like you said American real estate was doomed following 9/11, yet prices in most Cities have at least doubled

10 years ago people like you said Ireland was going down the pan and that early days investors were nutz.

[catara]

With all things new the crowd fail to spot the trends.

Catara, whilst I welcome vigorous debate you are undoubtably of pessimistic fibre.

No, I am not at all pessimistic. I am just saying that £100000 for 1 bedroom in Spain or £50000 for 1 bedroom in Morocoo (both frontline) is way too much.

Divide the price by two and you get the right price for those properties.

That is all I am saying. If the prices do not half in 3 years (in real money, considering also the inflation) then you can tell me that I was wrong and I shall aknowledge.

[dogbox]

No, I am not at all pessimistic. I am just saying that £100000 for 1 bedroom in Spain or £50000 for 1 bedroom in Morocoo (both frontline) is way too much.

Divide the price by two and you get the right price for those properties.

That is all I am saying. If the prices do not half in 3 years (in real money, considering also the inflation) then you can tell me that I was wrong and I shall aknowledge.

I was one of the first to reserve a villa in LJDF Morocco. It cost £170000. Now 95% sold. I reckon even if I resell as early as next summer I can pocket £40000.

One reason for this is the fact that the same properties sold in later phases are now going for over £200000.

[catara]

I was one of the first to reserve a villa in LJDF Morocco. It cost £170000. Now 95% sold. I reckon even if I resell as early as next summer I can pocket £40000.

One reason for this is the fact that the same properties sold in later phases are now going for over £200000.

The easy money is still here. IN a few months banks will realize they cannot borrow anymore risky clients and will sharply tightening the borrowing.

And I guess nobody has £200000 cash to purchase houses in Morocco, isn't it?

So I think you have about 2-3 months to find "some special buyer", as they call them now in USA.

[dogbox]

The easy money is still here. IN a few months banks will realize they cannot borrow anymore risky clients and will sharply tightening the borrowing.

People been saying this for years.

The reverse is happening. Lenders are offering more and more exotic loans.

I see 2 lenders offering 125% deals.

Morgan Stanley in the guise of 'Advantage' have come to the UK oofering exotic loans.

Even if there is a tightening which I think is reasonably likely, people buying in Morocco are generally not 'up against it' financially.

Also, I paid £170000 for a villa, but I have just seen £600000 villas released on the same development which are already c50% reserved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Makes mine sound cheap and cheerful