Meanwhile. Offshoring Continues

[AvidFan]

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_st...ntent_id=139189

Pink slip awaiting 21,000 Britons by 2008

PRAGATI VERMA

Posted online: Saturday, September 02, 2006 at 0000 hours IST

NEW DELHI, SEPT 1: Pink slips will soon be back to haunt the UK techies as over 15,000 jobs are expected to move offshore to countries like India by 2008. Job losses will mount to 21,000, if the workforce reduction by overseas companies is also added.

According to the latest study by Ovum for UK's department of trade & industry, British software and IT services companies plan to trim their UK-based workforce by 15,500 till 2008. This represents 6% of the current UK IT services and BPO workforce and will bring down the total number of people employed in UK tech and BPO industry from 2,49,000 now to 2,33,500 by the end of 2008. Though this report does not represent the UK government policy, it has been carried out for UK's department of trade and industry.

In sharp contrast, Indian outsourcing juggernaut could be rolling out jobs offers at a fast pace. Offshore tech companies, particularly those from India, are learnt to be growing their UK headcount in order to support new business sales and marketing as well as consulting opportunities that need to be carried out close to the client.

Estimated to employ 13% of their UK-focused staff in UK-based jobs by 2008, Indian offshore majors could emerge as the next big hirers in UK soon. Indian IT and BPO exports pool grew by 2,16,000 last year and UK currently accounts for 7% of India's IT and BPO industries.

Obviously, requirements for IT workers located in UK will drop. The bulk of the projected job reductions will fall in tasks such as programming, other lower-level technical roles like call center, help desk and corporate adminstration.

Interestingly, the predictions of job-cuts comes amidst the talks of a "backlash" against global sourcing and announcements of UK banks rejecting offshored call centre operations.

The new findings from UK-based Ovum, however, show how rapidly the IT services industry is shifting work volumes offshore. Most large IT services firms will be delivering more than 20% of their work for UK clients from offshore locations by 2008, with some aiming to push up closer to 50%. India-based employees working for UK companies are projected to double to 131,000. Ovum research predicts 36% of employees serving the UK services and ITS market will be based in offshore and nearshore locations by 2008 from the current level of 21%.

The UK government's position on the use of global sourcing within its own operations is significant because public sector spending accounted for 27% of the total UK software and IT services market in 2005, and this proportion continues to grow.

Lack of clarity surrounding the UK public sector's global sourcing strategy is making it difficult for many onshore players to plan their global sourcing strategies, according to the report.

I liked the "...programming, other lower-level technical roles..." part. Do they mean to say that programming is a lower-level technical roll? Gees - if that goes, we've almost NOTHING left in this country in IT.

Perhaps only the purest, highest levels of skill and knowledge cannot be outsourced - but then it's only a matter of time before ASIA catches up and their experience puts us, Europe and America to shame..

[the end is a bit nigher]

i didn't realise some programming was still done manually

[doric-woman]

i didn't realise some programming was still done manually

Talking of India, I was put through to an Indian call centre the other day please thankyou. The poor man I was talking too was obviously reading from a script and had even adopted an "English" name on behalf of his UK company. Unfortunately nobody had told him that Mary Jane was a woman's name.

[ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere]

Sooooo glad I don't work in IT any more.

The alarming thing is that many companies do see programming as a low level technical role. This is for a few reasons:

1. When I became a programmer I wanted to spend my days hacking together ingenious code in C++ which would startle and astound with its breathtaking subtlety and power. Programming at its best can be a work of creative genius. Sadly most programming these days involves bashing together little noddy programs in VB and the like with far less skill involed.

2. Very few companies see IT as an asset and treat it as a major cost centre so anything they can do to cut costs is most welcome.

3. There are HUGE numbers of graduates going after an ever decreasing number of jobs. This has led to a massive reduction and job security and a hugely depressing situation where you can be too old to apply for certain jobs in your late 20s.

IT in this country is rapidly becoming more about supporting/maintaining what you've got rather than developing new technologies. If you do need to do that it's far cheaper to get some indian code monkeys to do it instead.

[heresjohnny]

IT in this country is rapidly becoming more about supporting/maintaining what you've got rather than developing new technologies. If you do need to do that it's far cheaper to get some indian code monkeys to do it instead.

I second this - I work in advertising and increasingly my clients are outsourcing straight forward IT work to India where its cheap as chips.

There is a bit of a backlash on the call centre front though and some companies are bringing it back to the UK

[Family Man]

Talking of India, I was put through to an Indian call centre the other day please thankyou. The poor man I was talking too was obviously reading from a script and had even adopted an "English" name on behalf of his UK company. Unfortunately nobody had told him that Mary Jane was a woman's name.

I've put down the phone on so many of these but thats brilliant!

[Golden Shower]

I work or a company that outsourced a large number of jobs. I've been told what my employer wants, is a number of UK experts to guide and manage the Indian workers (who are on the whole pretty damn good). I second what ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere said. I'm glad I'm moving aside and away from the day-to-day stuff.

It's here to stay, any jobs that are coming back seem to be the customer facing call centre type stuff. Not very well paid.

My advice has always been, prepare and try to plan for a career change. There are opportunities out there but if you don't start thinking about this, you could well find yourself on the dole for a long time. No garuantees of course...

Thanking my lucky stars at the moment.

[Guest Cletus VanDamme]

I work or a company that outsourced a large number of jobs. I've been told what my employer wants, is a number of UK experts to guide and manage the Indian workers (who are on the whole pretty damn good). I second what ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere said. I'm glad I'm moving aside and away from the day-to-day stuff.

It's here to stay, any jobs that are coming back seem to be the customer facing call centre type stuff. Not very well paid.

My advice has always been, prepare and try to plan for a career change. There are opportunities out there but if you don't start thinking about this, you could well find yourself on the dole for a long time. No garuantees of course...

Thanking my lucky stars at the moment.

Go to to http://www.cwjobs.co.uk and look at the huge number of jobs out there. If you know SQL, XML and Java there still seems to be plenty of work available, and pretty well paid. Unless of course these jobs are non-existent and are just used by agencies to fish for CVs. It's happened before ...

[Gtr London FTB]

Ah yes the old "there's no future in IT because noddy programmers will all be off-shored."

Designers/Developers with good communication skills and 5+ years experience are incredibly in demand at the moment in the UK, in fact we're hiring right now and I can't get recruitment agents to cut their fee from 20% - apparantly because there are too many vacncies and not enough candidates!

Another HPC myth debunked....

[bugged bunny]

Ah yes the old "there's no future in IT because noddy programmers will all be off-shored."

Designers/Developers with good communication skills and 5+ years experience are incredibly in demand at the moment in the UK, in fact we're hiring right now and I can't get recruitment agents to cut their fee from 20% - apparantly because there are too many vacncies and not enough candidates!

Another HPC myth debunked....

Funny how it's alway's some other company's job to train and nuture these senior designers/developers with good communication skills isn't it?

IMO you're experiencing a shortage of decent candidates because the cost of living in London is so high and the quality of life poor, and the IT industry in the UK is so short-termist and dysfunctional. The most talented programmers I worked with in London took off to New Zealand or California once they had a few years' experience under their belt.

[ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere]

Ah yes the old "there's no future in IT because noddy programmers will all be off-shored."

Designers/Developers with good communication skills and 5+ years experience are incredibly in demand at the moment in the UK, in fact we're hiring right now and I can't get recruitment agents to cut their fee from 20% - apparantly because there are too many vacncies and not enough candidates!

Another HPC myth debunked....

Have to agree with Bugged Bunny. It never ceased to amaze me how many job adverts wanted minimum 3 years of Java/SOAP/XML/COM/SAP/embedded C/God knows what and how few companies were prepared to fork out to train people in these skills.

[big_jay]

True there are lots of IT jobs being off shored to India but in the main there are still loads of jobs in the Comms area of IT.

I was looking to move on and found a job for 53K with a bonus of 6-8K. In return my company give me a 27.5% pay rise which I took because I didn't want to relocate from Wales.

You just need good IT skills which aren't out there.

[MarkG]

Funny how it's alway's some other company's job to train and nuture these senior designers/developers with good communication skills isn't it?

The problem is, you can't force people to continue working for your company after you paid for all that training: so no company has an incentive to train someone who may just take that training to one of their competitors.

And that's not just in IT, it's a general problem with the collapse of 'apprenticeship' systems in industry as a whole.

[SarahBell]

Ah yes the old "there's no future in IT because noddy programmers will all be off-shored."

Designers/Developers with good communication skills and 5+ years experience are incredibly in demand at the moment in the UK, in fact we're hiring right now and I can't get recruitment agents to cut their fee from 20% - apparantly because there are too many vacncies and not enough candidates!

Another HPC myth debunked....

What levels of pay though?

[ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere]

The problem is, you can't force people to continue working for your company after you paid for all that training: so no company has an incentive to train someone who may just take that training to one of their competitors.

And that's not just in IT, it's a general problem with the collapse of 'apprenticeship' systems in industry as a whole.

Of course if the company made it worth the person's while to stay in the first place...

[Guest Cletus VanDamme]

Have to agree with Bugged Bunny. It never ceased to amaze me how many job adverts wanted minimum 3 years of Java/SOAP/XML/COM/SAP/embedded C/God knows what and how few companies were prepared to fork out to train people in these skills.

These days you train yourself. That way you can command and dictate your own salary. Never be under obligation to a company. Stay with them while the going is good, look after your own professional development, then abandon them when it's not so good.

[MarkG]

Of course if the company made it worth the person's while to stay in the first place...

So first you pay to train them, then you pay over the odds to keep them? Can you explain again how this is supposed to be more beneficial than just hiring Indian programmers?

[bugged bunny]

The problem is, you can't force people to continue working for your company after you paid for all that training: so no company has an incentive to train someone who may just take that training to one of their competitors.

And that's not just in IT, it's a general problem with the collapse of 'apprenticeship' systems in industry as a whole.

I agree that it's a general problem - but it does seem particularly acute in IT, compared with other sectors in which I've worked, which aren't so well-paid. I think that the modern, IT industry, and by that I mean since the World Wide Web came into being, is still young, and needs time to learn from its mistakes and grow into a mature industry.

So first you pay to train them, then you pay over the odds to keep them? Can you explain again how this is supposed to be more beneficial than just hiring Indian programmers?

Well it would be beneficial in reducing the shortage of senior architects and designers in the UK. It's a case of too many Indians and not enough chiefs, if you'll pardon the pun.

[SarahBell]

I assume offshoring is dirt cheap because companies don't contribute to the pensions of the overseas workers?

Anyone know for sure?

Will the countries we use in this way turn round and start demanding better conditions for their workers or are they just happy to have the jobs at all?

[Dr Doom]

I think the main problem with IT as a career option, is there isn't

really a structured career path that can be followed like you see in

accountancy, law, or surveying.

A lot of people probably go into IT because they enjoy programming

and working with computers. But the reality is that this will only

get you so far. The more senior well-paid positions are primarily about

being able to deal with people, and politics that goes with that.

And by and large the type of person that is good at this, doesn't usually

understand the finer details of the technical side, although such people

probably do exist, in my experience they are generally the exception.

And having a manager that doesn't understand what he's managing

is a really annoying situation to be in.

Obviously out-sourcing doesn't help things, it puts downwards pressure

on wages for certain positions. The position I'm working in now was almost

going to be outsourced to the philipines, where you can get a phd graduate

for £10k/year apparently.

Out of interest, those who said they managed to get out of IT,

what did you move into, and how does it compare?

Edited September 2, 2006 by Dr Doom

[crash2006]

The problem in this country is that if they can save money they will, than expect the government to pay for training or for yourself to pay, when in fact they could pay for the training and it would be free to them, tax deductable.

The problem is they dont want to pay while you are in training, so the industry is falling apart no-one wants to do IT, the personel are treated like scum, work long hours for poor money. It s all about making a quick buck, the funny thing now IT is part of any bussiness fundamental structure, yet they dont see how Valuable the work force are.

The companies are crying out for engineers from any background civil etc.. yet they are the worst paid, you cant expect someone to do an engineer degree (hard as they are) to be paid peanuts, while some one doing a social degree (easy) gets paid twice or more than them.

Look at India US China they value there engineer grads more than economic grads and they have a nice big engineering sector that pays very well, yet this country dosent.

Edited September 2, 2006 by crash2006

[Golden Shower]

Ah yes the old "there's no future in IT because noddy programmers will all be off-shored."

Designers/Developers with good communication skills and 5+ years experience are incredibly in demand at the moment in the UK, in fact we're hiring right now and I can't get recruitment agents to cut their fee from 20% - apparantly because there are too many vacncies and not enough candidates!

Another HPC myth debunked....

True, many good opportunities for the best IT staff out there. Interesting what you are saying though, we tried to fill two positions with UK staff but after many interviews couldn't find the right people, we then had to send the work overseas.

I think in many large companies, the "noddy programmers" will find themselves offshored. Coming back to your

Designers/Developers with good communication skills and 5+ years experience

it's critical, IMO anyone in IT now must have a more rounded skill set than just sitting in a corner developing code.

[bugged bunny]

A lot of people probably go into IT because they enjoy programming

and working with computers. But the reality is that this will only

get you so far. The more senior well-paid positions are primarily about

being able to deal with people, and politics that goes with that.

And by and large the type of person that is good at this, doesn't usually

understand the finer details of the technical side, although such people

probably do exist, in my experience they are generally the exception.

And having a manager that doesn't understand what he's managing

is a really annoying situation to be in.

This is very true. I didn't enter IT until I was in my late twenties and on account of being female (i.e. regarded as having better communications skills) as well as being one of the oldest programmers in the company I was pushed towards a management role very quickly, even though I had no inclination towards managing people and I felt I hadn't acquired sufficient technical knowledge and skills. I wasn't happy working in such a young-male-oriented environment. My interests are quite broad and I found that those around me had very few topics of conversation outside IT.

I now work as a programmer on an academic project for a university outside London. The role is quite varied and includes some data cleaning and support. The working conditions and hours are much better than those I experienced in commercial IT in London. I'm working on a project I believe in, so it brings much me more job satisfaction than the previous job I describe. My quality of life's much better outside London even though I'm still on a lower salary 5 years down the line.

[ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere]

Out of interest, those who said they managed to get out of IT,

what did you move into, and how does it compare?

Working as a science and ICT teacher now. It certainly has its moments but I wouldn't go back to IT in a million years.

So first you pay to train them, then you pay over the odds to keep them? Can you explain again how this is supposed to be more beneficial than just hiring Indian programmers?

I agree with what you're saying. Sucks if you're trying to make a career in this country, though. Besides, it's not really a question of paying over the odds. If a company was paying you the market rate for a person with all these newly acquired skills, there would be little point in moving, would there?

These days you train yourself. That way you can command and dictate your own salary. Never be under obligation to a company. Stay with them while the going is good, look after your own professional development, then abandon them when it's not so good.

Been down that path. Problem is it's experience they're after, not just ability. Out of curiosity, and I am trying in no way shape or form to be antagonistic, do you work in IT? If so, what do you do?

[Guest Cletus VanDamme]

Been down that path. Problem is it's experience they're after, not just ability. Out of curiosity, and I am trying in no way shape or form to be antagonistic, do you work in IT? If so, what do you do?

Yes, I work in IT as an independent consultant. Anything from business process and data modelling on big projects, XML schema development, XSLT, through writing code for smaller projects, to developing web sites.

You're right about the 'must have xxx years experience' problem. In the past, I found the way round this is to either 1) get the experience outside the normal work environment by, e.g., contributing to open-source projects or writing your own software which you sell as freeware or shareware or 2) take a job in a different area, but influence the direction of that job so that it ends up giving you the experience in the area you want.

Edited September 2, 2006 by Cletus VanDamme