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But you're only 8 years past the Wilkipedia defined range:

A baby boomer is someone who was born during the period of increased birth rates when economic prosperity rose in many countries following World War II. In the United States, the term is iconic and more properly capitalized as Baby Boomers and commonly applied to people with birth years from the span 1946 to 1964

8 years outside the range! You're practically a baby boomer!! I can't believe you've started a one man vendetta against your own generation!

And you did the one big thing you accuse boomers of doing : Buying a house in a cheap period and watching it inflate! You lot - you expect the new generation to pay 4 times what you paid for it! :lol:

Nice try at misdirection, troll.

8 years puts me slap in the middle of that generation, just as you are in the middle of yours.

I do not expect those after me to pay 4x - you take what I say in my previous post and claim I say the exact opposite. Troll.

Rapidly rising house prices benefit no-one except those 'at the top'. Housing should not be a lottery for riches. It is to be lived in, and as a hedge against inflation. I would be happy to see the average selling price of properties drop to 1995 levels + wage inflation %. Including mine. I know this is hard for you to understand, but I think the benefits to society of my 'lost' equity would be worth it, so that FTB could get on with their lives without hideous debt.

Edited by MadJock

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Guest pioneer31

Tut. Typical boomer attitude. "I'm all right Jack, the younger generation will pay me 4 times what I paid for my house"

You've stuffed the next generation, haven't you?

That's the way I see your posts. You like to try and pour water on the bear argument.

Tell me, (without giving me a lecture on your human rights to use this forum) Why are YOU are on this forum?

If I was rich, would I be trawling the money saving experts website????

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Nice try at misdirection, troll.

8 years puts me slap in the middle of that generation, just as you are in the middle of yours.

So, relying on a technical get out, eh? You'd be a blame-worthy person if you were 8 years older, but as it is you're 1 of the victims. What a joke. How does it work for 41 year olds - do they blame the 42year olds?

What a joke. Shows what a tangle you can get in when you try to stereotype doesn't it Jock?

That's the way I see your posts. You like to try and pour water on the bear argument.

Only when they're as ludicrous as Mad Jock's castigation of an entire generation.

We've been through all this before CO. This must be the 3rd time that I've said it now on these boards - my father bought a 3 bedroom detached house off his own salary (x2.5) in the 60's. He was a teacher, so hardly a millionaire.

So, in todays money that would be circa £60k for a 3 bed detached. :lol::lol::lol:

And I've given you the same old answer every time.

So why did anyone live in a slum, a flat, or any undesirable property? Look around you at the vast quantities of very undesirable properties - it was all there, just as undesirable, 30, 40 years ago. Who do you think lived in these places, and why, when a teacher could afford such a nice house?

Why did they bother building council houses?

Every time you tell me the story of your father I can match it with a story of couples I know who couldn't afford to buy in the 70s. Or people living in very poor qulaity housing. What does it prove?

The acid test, though, is why is owner occupation so much higher today, in percentage terms, than it was ever in the past?

Why was the percentage of owner occupation so low, compared with today?

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Guest pioneer31

Only when they're as ludicrous as Mad Jock's castigation of an entire generation.

I don't agree that the boomers are to blame, the govt and the banks can claim that accolade.

but I DO agree that the boomers had it CONSIDERABLY easier than this gen.

and I'm sick of people saying that we should set our sights lower. Why should we? Why should we pay 3 times what you did for the same rabbit hutch? (not that I can afford a rabbit hutch)

Edited by pioneer31

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So, relying on a technical get out, eh? You'd be a blame-worthy person if you were 8 years older, but as it is you're 1 of the victims. What a joke. How does it work for 41 year olds - do they blame the 42year olds?

What a joke. Shows what a tangle you can get in when you try to stereotype doesn't it Jock?

Only when they're as ludicrous as Mad Jock's castigation of an entire generation.

Wow. Way to parse things to dodge the actual argument.

If I were 8 years older, I'd be on the cusp of 2 generations. I actually think that those boomers born 46-56 have it much easier than those 56-64, but the argument isn't so succinct when you start subdividing in that manner.

And no, that doesn't confuse things. Those born immediately post WWII have had everything given to them, and it stayed that way for a decade or so, then a slow slide in standards, then faster until for those born mid-late 1970s and later it really gets tough. I've said before, I think I was lucky and born 3 or so years later and I'd be much worse off. The heaviest blame lies with the leading edge of the boomers. Tail edge of the boomers caught the cheap house prices of the 90s just as they were buying their single family homes, and that's what's helped them avoid the worst of it.

I got lucky with lots of free education and sneaked in on that housing. God help Gen Y with student fees and no hope of a reasonable FTB or significant wage inflation. But here's the thing, I don't want to impoverish those behind me to make up for things. I'm willing to give up >100k in equity if it means sane house prices and a fairer society. You really can't grasp that, can you?

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Guest pioneer31

So why did anyone live in a slum, a flat, or any undesirable property? Look around you at the vast quantities of very undesirable properties - it was all there, just as undesirable, 30, 40 years ago. Who do you think lived in these places, and why, when a teacher could afford such a nice house?

There will always be slums. Far fewer people went to Uni, far fewer were skilled, so consequently they earnt less?

Why did they bother building council houses?

because there will always be poor people/unemployed etc

Every time you tell me the story of your father I can match it with a story of couples I know who couldn't afford to buy in the 70s. Or people living in very poor qulaity housing. What does it prove?

it proves that a 60's teacher could afford a decent house and now he/she cant afford anything. It proves MASSIVE HPI.

The acid test, though, is why is owner occupation so much higher today, in percentage terms, than it was ever in the past?

Why was the percentage of owner occupation so low, compared with today?

Come on CO, You KNOW the answer to this. Availability of credit. Also, BOTH parents work now, so they can borrow more.

Nobody actually owns a property until the mortgage is paid. You can lend me a 100 times my salary if you like, and I could 'buy' Buckingham Palace. Will I ever pay it back?

You OO 'proof' is based on how much credit someone can obtain. A flawed argument.

Edited by pioneer31

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I don't agree that the boomers are to blame, the govt and the banks can claim that accolade.

but I DO agree that the boomers had it CONSIDERABLY easier than this gen.

and I'm sick of people saying that we should set our sights lower. Why should we? Why should we pay 3 times what you did for the same rabbit hutch? (not that I can afford a rabbit hutch)

I don't think you take into account every aspect of living in the "boomer" generation. You think it was all a bed of roses. I'm not moaning, but there were bits that were actually a lot harder than today. The early 70's for example were severely depressed, with 3 day weeks, poor housing, very high unemployment, strikes and crippling inflation (yes, hyper inflation is not as benign as you think, once you actually experience it).

I've said it before - my wife and I just managed to buy a house opposite an oil refinery in Essex on 2 salaries - the same house sold last year for £175k. That's no less affordable than it was to us in 1975. None of my older brothers and sisiters could afford anything in the 1970's - they only managed it under Thatcher's right to buy in 1979ish.

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Guest pioneer31

You wouldn't believe me if I told you. It wouldn't fit your black and white view of bears and bulls.

Try me

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The acid test, though, is why is owner occupation so much higher today, in percentage terms, than it was ever in the past?

Why was the percentage of owner occupation so low, compared with today?

Nothing wrong with house prices rising and % ownership increasing - in fact it's a good thing IF population growth and sustainable wage growth are there to back it up. Home ownership and price increases predicated upon debt are bad for society and the economy in the long term.

40 years ago mortgages were to be repaid from wages, while leaving enough money to raise a family. Banks, sellers, and buyers all expected that. 40 years ago a house was a place to live, not a lottery ticket. They thought like France or Germany still does and wanted to use the money for other things, and did not dedicate their entire lives to the purchase of 4 walls and a roof.

Today, banks will lend insane multiple of salary that burden buyers with monstrous debt that may never be repaid (IO mortgages that are new 'innovations'). Buyers sacrifice everything to pay whatever it takes to 'get on the ladder' because they are told to by the very people who profit from that debt.

Study some basic economics. Debt, if used to fund consumption, results in decreased growth in future years. If used for investment, training, capital equipment, productivity gains etc, then it will result in increased growth. One form of debt helps an economy, one hurts. Guess which form we've been following?

Edited by MadJock

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Come on CO, You KNOW the answer to this. Availability of credit. Also, BOTH parents work now, so they can borrow more.

People that bought did so when they married, in the main. Mortgage applications were usually on 2 incomes. I only have experience of the SE, and I can assure you that 2 incomes were needed. I'll grant you that high wage inflation made things easier after a number of years, but of course this didn't help people at the time they first bought.

One of the reasons credit was tight was that it had to be. At 12% IRs, it had to be limited to lower multiples of salary than is the case today. The days of brach limitations of funds was not really a factor after about 1974, I believe.

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Guest AuntJess

I am a baby boomer. :) I bought my house in the late 60's and ended up paying 7 times what it was on the market for, due to mortgage payments. God knows what today's housebuyers will end up paying!! Even though I have spent a fair bit of money on my house, over the years, I would not be able to afford to buy it in today's market, even though we are both professionals.

It is a ridiculous state of affairs that todays young buyers should be asked to pay so much for a house. All this talk of huge mortgages and buying half a house - phooey. Whoever though that one up......!

I also note that some posters are quite derisive to others - taking a sort of "I'm all right, Jack" stance. Bit naughty that, to crow over someone else because they just happened to get in before the balloon went up. "There but for the grace of god....." and all that. B)

I don't know about slagging off my age group for what some of them do, there are some younger people on here who show very little sympathy towards members of their own generation who have been locked out of owning their own homes, possibly - though hopefully not - for always.

Edited by AuntJess

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People that bought did so when they married, in the main. Mortgage applications were usually on 2 incomes. I only have experience of the SE, and I can assure you that 2 incomes were needed. I'll grant you that high wage inflation made things easier after a number of years, but of course this didn't help people at the time they first bought.

One of the reasons credit was tight was that it had to be. At 12% IRs, it had to be limited to lower multiples of salary than is the case today. The days of brach limitations of funds was not really a factor after about 1974, I believe.

SE prices have always been ridiculous

so you found it hard back then, today you'd have to leave the area or slum it.

Credit wasn't just tight because of the IR. Attitudes have changed over the decades. Being in debt was frowned upon. Now it's something to be proud of. People wouldn't dream of signing heir life away. Nobody was advertising to lend you money prior to around 20 years ago. Now they are falling over themselves to enslave you.

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Try me

OK. If you look back at my earliest posts you'll see that I wanted and expected a HPC.

Having listened to all the debate, and seen what is going on, my position has changed. I now want, but don't expect a HPC.

I still like to hear reasoned debate from both sides, but I have to admit that I've found a number of stances and posts from Bears that are frankly ludicrous (ranging from some who try to convince people that prices have been crashing for 6 months to others who, despite being able to buy something more than reasonable, feel outraged that they can't buy the kind of house I had to wait 20 years for). Mnay of the Bear arguments need cold water, for the sake of sane Bears!

I have 2 more kids who will 1 day need to buy a house, and I like to see all youngsters get on, if they put the effort in, so I'm pleased to believe that we will not see any more real HPI for several years. But I don't think we'll have a crash.

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I don't think you take into account every aspect of living in the "boomer" generation. You think it was all a bed of roses. I'm not moaning, but there were bits that were actually a lot harder than today. The early 70's for example were severely depressed, with 3 day weeks, poor housing, very high unemployment, strikes and crippling inflation (yes, hyper inflation is not as benign as you think, once you actually experience it).

I've said it before - my wife and I just managed to buy a house opposite an oil refinery in Essex on 2 salaries - the same house sold last year for £175k. That's no less affordable than it was to us in 1975. None of my older brothers and sisiters could afford anything in the 1970's - they only managed it under Thatcher's right to buy in 1979ish.

Hyperinflation works nicely for those with debt - they value of the pound you pay back the debt with is less than when it was borrowed years earlier. Hyperinflation is nasty if you are on a fixed income, but if wages rise faster than inflation, things look good if you work.

5 seconds of Googling threw up inflation adjusted data for minimum wages in the US, plus hoardes of other data showing real wages started falling towards the end of the 70s, but during the 70s wage and core inflation roughly matched. Plot the data below on a graph and tell me when things really went sour - it wasn't the 70s.

Year Min Wage 1996 dollars

1955 $4.39

1956 5.77

1957 5.58

1958 5.43

1959 5.39

1960 5.3

1961 6.03

1962 5.97

1963 6.41

1964 6.33

1965 6.23

1966 6.05

1967 6.58

1968 $7.21

1969 6.84

1970 6.47

1971 6.2

1972 6.01

1973 5.65

1974 6.37

1975 6.12

1976 6.34

1977 5.95

1978 6.38

1979 6.27

1980 5.9

1981 $5.78

1982 5.45

1983 5.28

1984 5.06

1985 4.88

1986 4.8

1987 4.63

1988 4.44

1989 4.24

1990 4.56

1991 4.9

1992 4.75

1993 4.61

1994 $4.50

1995 4.38

1996 4.75

1997 5.03

1998 4.96

1999 4.85

2000 4.69

2001 4.56

2002 4.49

2003 4.39

2004 4.28

2005 4.14

2006 4.04

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SE prices have always been ridiculous

so you found it hard back then, today you'd have to leave the area or slum it.

No, as I say it sold last year for 175k. I reckon a couple with the same jobs we had then could afford it now. In 1975 1 was a recently Chartered Engineer, my wife a secretary in the City.

Now, I employ young engineers now on about 25k, and my daughter is a secretary on 27k (City) so, combined, and with the 4 years deposit my wife and I saved for, I honestly don't think it's a lot different.

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Guest AuntJess

People that bought did so when they married, in the main. Mortgage applications were usually on 2 incomes. I only have experience of the SE, and I can assure you that 2 incomes were needed. I'll grant you that high wage inflation made things easier after a number of years, but of course this didn't help people at the time they first bought.

One of the reasons credit was tight was that it had to be. At 12% IRs, it had to be limited to lower multiples of salary than is the case today. The days of brach limitations of funds was not really a factor after about 1974, I believe.

We bought when we got married, and the mortgage was based on ONE income, due to plans to have a family, we judged it best to not overstretch ourselves. We were hard up for years, did not have holidays and did without much that many do take for granted today, but then that was due to the times we lived in. Born after the war and used to rationing we did not expect so much in the way of : cars. hols, clothes, nights out. This is not a sob story... we never missed them!

My generation was a darn sight happier than this one today, despite the lack of "extras", but then we weren't screwed for rates, water charges and high house prices.

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OK. If you look back at my earliest posts you'll see that I wanted and expected a HPC.

Having listened to all the debate, and seen what is going on, my position has changed. I now want, but don't expect a HPC.

I still like to hear reasoned debate from both sides,

fair enough and whilst I agree that some bear arguments are OTT, I don't notice you belittling the ridiculous bull stance - arguments based on pure fantasy. The bear argument is based on what has gone before, which I've noticed you concur with. However, the bull argument is based on ............. what exactly? Anything scientific? Anything at all?

but I have to admit that I've found a number of stances and posts from Bears that are frankly ludicrous (ranging from some who try to convince people that prices have been crashing for 6 months to others who, despite being able to buy something more than reasonable, feel outraged that they can't buy the kind of house I had to wait 20 years for). Mnay of the Bear arguments need cold water, for the sake of sane Bears!

I started working later than the average. I'm 34 now. I save hard and have done for some time. I'm a bear, naturally. i don't expect it on a plate (and even if I did, how does that differentiate me from the MEW and BTL generation?) but I do expect to see some fruits. If I don't I will either leave the UK or join the scroungers and let someone else house/feed/look after me. I'm sure I'm not alone.

I have 2 more kids who will 1 day need to buy a house, and I like to see all youngsters get on, if they put the effort in, so I'm pleased to believe that we will not see any more real HPI for several years. But I don't think we'll have a crash.

depends what you mean by crash. I think a slump is as sure as night follows day. Basic economic principles dictate it.

Edited by pioneer31

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I am a baby boomer. :) I bought my house in the late 60's and ended up paying 7 times what it was on the market for, due to mortgage payments. God knows what today's housebuyers will end up paying!! Even though I have spent a fair bit of money on my house, over the years, I would not be able to afford to buy it in today's market, even though we are both professionals.

It is a ridiculous state of affairs that todays young buyers should be asked to pay so much for a house. All this talk of huge mortgages and buying half a house - phooey. Whoever though that one up......!

I also note that some posters are quite derisive to others - taking a sort of "I'm all right, Jack" stance. Bit naughty that, to crow over someone else because they just happened to get in before the balloon went up. "There but for the grace of god....." and all that. B)

I don't know about slagging off my age group for what some of them do, there are some younger people on here who show very little sympathy towards members of their own generation who have been locked out of owning their own homes, possibly - though hopefully not - for always.

Thank you.

More than anything else it's the dismissive attitude and the expectation that we should set our sights lower, while paying debt we did not run up, that irritates. I'd rather we all work together to fix this, but the attitude I see from most boomers is that they want their cake and to eat it too, and damn everyone else. At some point, you have to consider them a lost cause and concentrate on your own generation and those that follow, and we are approaching that point very quickly, I am sad to say.

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Guest AuntJess

No, as I say it sold last year for 175k. I reckon a couple with the same jobs we had then could afford it now. In 1975 1 was a recently Chartered Engineer, my wife a secretary in the City.

Now, I employ young engineers now on about 25k, and my daughter is a secretary on 27k (City) so, combined, and with the 4 years deposit my wife and I saved for, I honestly don't think it's a lot different.

Well my house today is selling for 60 times more than we bought it for, forty years ago!! My husband's gross pay pa(if he was still working) would be one-tenth of the cost of the houseprice today, compared to just under half the cost of the house, 40 years ago! Times sure have changed and despite improvements in technology, there is precious little peace of mind for today's FTB's. :(

My aunt and uncle, bought a house outright :o in the 1940's - from money they had scrimped and saved. Granted houses were very cheap then, but that could never happen today... and they were only blue collar workers - not highly paid professionals

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Guest AuntJess

Thank you.

More than anything else it's the dismissive attitude and the expectation that we should set our sights lower, while paying debt we did not run up, that irritates. I'd rather we all work together to fix this, but the attitude I see from most boomers is that they want their cake and to eat it too, and damn everyone else. At some point, you have to consider them a lost cause and concentrate on your own generation and those that follow, and we are approaching that point very quickly, I am sad to say.

I am not surprised you are aggrieved at that attitudes you meet with, I would be the same. Bad enough that people like you have to face enormous debts or pokey homes, without some patronising type coming along with their " well you will just have to tighten your belts another notch" scenario.

At the risk of sounding like an old fogey :P , the problem at my end of things is hoping I don't contract a ghastly long-term disorder in old age, and get my money rooked off me, to pay for "care" :rolleyes: before I can leave my children a little "sweetener".

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Well my house today is selling for 60 times more than we bought it for, forty years ago!! My husband's gross pay pa(if he was still working) would be one-tenth of the cost of the houseprice today, compared to just under half the cost of the house, 40 years ago! Times sure have changed and despite improvements in technology, there is precious little peace of mind for today's FTB's. :(

My aunt and uncle, bought a house outright :o in the 1940's - from money they had scrimped and saved. Granted houses were very cheap then, but that could never happen today... and they were only blue collar workers - not highly paid professionals

Pitiful troll posting. Shame on you.

It reads like some script covered in red marker pen found in the dustbin outside the Radio Four Drama Department.

If you have something sensible to say, and want to engage in the debate, then do so. Don't piss me off by this juvenile play-acting.

Let me guess: next, you'll start complaining about your lumbago, and you'll be chuckling about the lovely daytrips you used to make to Clacton -- back in the good old days.

FFS, if you're going to bullsh1t us, do it convincingly.

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Guest pioneer31

Pitiful troll posting. Shame on you.

It reads like some script covered in red marker pen found in the dustbin outside the Radio Four Drama Department.

If you have something sensible to say, and want to engage in the debate, then do so. Don't piss me off by this juvenile play-acting.

Let me guess: next, you'll start complaining about your lumbago, and you'll be chuckling about the lovely daytrips you used to make to Clacton -- back in the good old days.

FFS, if you're going to bullsh1t us, do it convincingly.

Troll = not agreeing with you? :rolleyes:

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Guest pioneer31

Troll = someone taking the p1ss.

...whether they agree with me or not.

Gee, I must have missed it. Where exactly is it taking the p**s

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  • 315 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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