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Id Cards - Why The Government Are…

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I know this is off topic for this forum but it is on topic all the time for all of us in the UK. I have been a member here for a while but am usually quiet on here but please, I would appreciate if this once I was allowed to rant about something I have been thinking about.

You like 1984? Read on.

I got thinking yesterday and I now really question my view point on ID cards, I now think I am in favour of the things. Might have to withdraw from the no2id campaign.

A few of the many arguments against them are,

Q1) Why duplicate a document I already have, my passport.

Q2) Why waste money doing this.

Q3) If having a passport has not stopped terrorism why would the ID card?

Q4) A British citizen, born here, raised here will not be stopped/detected as a terrorist even if they do have an ID card.

Q5) Why should I HAVE to take my ID card to withdraw my pension, dole money, when applying for a job, buying a travel card, withdrawing or depositing money in MY bank account?

Q6) If I don’t have to carry it around why can’t I use my passport for the above?

These to me seemed very good arguments against and I thought the government were stupid for duplicating work.. But, really why would out own government want to harm us? I think the following theories will give you an answer.

The government want to harvest all out biometric data, face shots, finger prints etc… Relying on passports is unacceptable as they are not compulsorily to own and although the replacement passports will do the biometric job to record all our data it will take 10 years. The more people without recorded data makes it easier for terrorists and illegal to hide in the population.

The point is they want to record our faces and quick as they have seen how dangerous home grown terrorism is around the world. How do they do this? They create a document, ID cards in this case, that all of us will need to own to have a living. This ensures we run along to the local police station and get our pics taken. Once they have our pictures they don’t care weather we carry it or not but it’s this picture taking that is all they care about.

From here on in it gets scary…

The congestion charge zone uses computer vision technology to detect a number plate in the imaged the CCTVs take, the same technology then goes on to ‘read’ the number plate. This is the same computer vision technology that will be used at airports to check your face, this is why we will be asked not to smile on photos and give a computer friendly photo. You have probably guessed where I am going with this but if not I’ll spell it out for you.

Don’t be mistaken that the computer image recognition will only be used at airports…

The following link explains the technology and has links to UK leading universities on the subject. Imperial, KCL, UCL have large computer vision departments and Kingston University (Probably the leading university in this area) is working in partnership with London Underground to test software that detects suicides before they jump, it detects your mood. An example of this is its very easy to train a neural net to spot the walk of a drunk man and a sober man, we can do this. It can also detect, after training, jitteriness etc….

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_vision

The next time you are out in your town centre take a look around you, notice those tall poles with cameras on top protected by pointy metal? These are the high tech cameras and you have probably seen the sharp images they produce in police documentaries on the bbc when they are in the control room. Don’t think cctv is the dodgy blank and white video from the local garage, they are not national CCTV network. Weather you like it or not the cameras are here to stay.

In the same way as Kens congestion charge system this new security system detects a face, then sends that face to another system to identify it just like at the airport. What does this mean? Well, the technology exists and a government would be stupid not to use it to find out….

1) Where you are.

2) When you are.

3) Who you are.

4) Your state of mind.

5) If you are going about your usual business.

The reason why you wont need to carry the ID card is because YOU BECOME the ID Card.

Computer neural networks would learn EVERYONES movements and for more than 99% of the time you will not be picked up, the neural networks will learn to ignore you trip to the shops / work.

What it will identify would be something out of the ordinary, say a nervous looking man with a rucksack who has never been to central London.

The beauty of the system is that even if a terrorist did not join he would be part of a very few people as the rest of us would have had to register just to live and operate in the uk. Police could be alerted and sent to his location. Shockingly as with some of the home grown terrorist in this country they fit in to the community and you would not suspect them but the camera would detect the name/ address of any legal citizen seen with him and police could track the illegal in this way.

A further advantage of this system is that it is indiscriminate and does not care about your race or religion so removes the ability of a terrorist to hide behind a religion or play the institutionalised racism card. The rest of the citizens in this country would not be harassed or be subject to racial profiling.

But for all the problems it solves issues of personal privacy and giving up some freedoms may upset the population as a whole. But what choice do we have…

1) Do nothing; make it easy for terrorist to operate. Unacceptable.

2) Stand by and watch ethnic minorities suffer under the finger of suspicion and risk walking the road of ghetto wars and ‘insurgent’ style fighting in the uk. Unacceptable.

3) Or the cctv / ID card option. Solves the above but at the expense of personal privacy. Reasonable.

I would gladly take choice 3. Unfortunately if it was the terrorist’s aim for us all to reach the above choice they have succeeded. But I wont let them take the UK down routes 1 + 2 above.

I am in favour of ID cards. And really, I challenge you to give me a plausible argument to how the government can harm me if they know the route I travel to work or the shops?

The only question I have left to answer is, why do we have to pay for the cards. I think the above answers itself. Implementing a congestion charge style technology to face recognition across the whole uk will be expensive.

I think my theory answers a lot of questions and seems to tie up a lot of loose ends.

Its all a bit 1984 but the technology really does exist.

The final question is… if such a system exists behind the ID card why are we not being told about it. And if it does not exist why isn’t someone working on it already?

Thanks you for letting me rant.

CAS.

A website like this must have some readers that are in the field of Computer Science / Vision. I hope you can confirm my thoughts.

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Once upon a time there was a thing called freedom.

This government in particular don't like freedom,everything they do is all about as centrally controlled as it can get.....it's old-school soviet think tank stuff.

I think we need another Maggie to drag us out of this quagmire.

You might not have liked everything she stood for,but she was big on the idea of freedom to make choices.

remember going out and getting drunk once in a while is a choice....left to the devices of this establishment you'll be able to get drunk and then fined for the privilege with a nice little video of you staggering outside the kebab shop(along with a £100 fixed penalty).

only robots will escape fines/gulags/re-education camps or whatever they have planned next.

I don't fancy the idea of being an automaton.

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Once upon a time there was a thing called freedom.

This government in particular don't like freedom,everything they do is all about as centrally controlled as it can get.....it's old-school soviet think tank stuff.

I think we need another Maggie to drag us out of this quagmire.

You might not have liked everything she stood for,but she was big on the idea of freedom to make choices.

remember going out and getting drunk once in a while is a choice....left to the devices of this establishment you'll be able to get drunk and then fined for the privilege with a nice little video of you staggering outside the kebab shop(along with a £100 fixed penalty).

only robots will escape fines/gulags/re-education camps or whatever they have planned next.

I don't fancy the idea of being an automaton.

Good point. We are all guilty of a night out on the town and throwing up.

These new instant police laws in the press today combined with the above system will be dangerous.

Any one see the movie Equillibrium?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/usercomments?start=80

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Good point. We are all guilty of a night out on the town and throwing up.

These new instant police laws in the press today combined with the above system will be dangerous.

Any one see the movie Equillibrium?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/usercomments?start=80

Stuff Equilibrium, ....if you want a real shocker read Revelation. The technology now exists to create the mark, or number of the beast. <street preacher rant> Repent now all ye sinners the end is nigh!</street preacher rant> :ph34r:

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Stuff Equilibrium, ....if you want a real shocker read Revelation. The technology now exists to create the mark, or number of the beast. <street preacher rant> Repent now all ye sinners the end is nigh!</street preacher rant> :ph34r:

Well... I suppose you could talk about the number of the beast...

I hope my theories are at least given some serious thought and that

I have open up some people’s eyes to the possibilities in the world

that surrounds us.

CAS

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In the past classic (laisser-faire) liberalism wanted to reduce the state to the absolute minimum, to let business make profits

unhindered by legislation and the tax cost of the welfare state.

Today neo-liberalism demands a strong state to promote its interests and opress people for their exploitation by business.

Thats why we need so much security, id cards, surveillance, control, e-privacy, policing in its various forms.

There is an interesting book The Free Economy and the Strong State: Politics of Thatcherism

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How will the wonderful benefits of ID cards protect us from acts perpetrated by visitors from overseas...? Are you telling me that the police in London will be able to pay special attention to every ID card-less foreign national that is on the streets at any given time?

One massive flaw in the proposed ID card system that makes it open to fraud is the authentication of the photos in the first place. Exactly who is going to verify that you, Joe Bloggs are indeed Joe Bloggs? Same way as they do it for passports now? And of course nobody ever fraudulently got a UK passport with the wrong name on did they...

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How will the wonderful benefits of ID cards protect us from acts perpetrated by visitors from overseas...? Are you telling me that the police in London will be able to pay special attention to every ID card-less foreign national that is on the streets at any given time?

One massive flaw in the proposed ID card system that makes it open to fraud is the authentication of the photos in the first place. Exactly who is going to verify that you, Joe Bloggs are indeed Joe Bloggs? Same way as they do it for passports now? And of course nobody ever fraudulently got a UK passport with the wrong name on did they...

I'm not happy that we are under terrorist threats and am not happy that these choices have to be made.

A visitor from over seas would probably have been photographed and recorded on entry to the uk and so dissmissed by the system.

But a bloke from 70 miles away from London whos usual routine is not carrying a rucksack in London would be spoted

and flaged by a neural network.

As for fraudulent behavour, it can't be completley stamped out but it can be made difficult to acheive.

Besides, even if you have used a false name... its YOUR face that is acting suspicioulsy and its YOUR face

that will be looked for by police on the ground and it will forever be falgged up where ever you go.. so

even if false name address is given a terrorist will always be found using the above system.

As I said, a terrorist wont even have to be registered... as long as the rest of us law abiding citixens do.

We will anyway as we will have to use them for bank accounts etc...

Even sympathisers of terrorist that would flout the ID law would have to register as they would probably not

swap their citizenship privalages over supporting the local terrorist cell. Perfect system.

CAS

In the past classic (laisser-faire) liberalism wanted to reduce the state to the absolute minimum, to let business make profits

unhindered by legislation and the tax cost of the welfare state.

Today neo-liberalism demands a strong state to promote its interests and opress people for their exploitation by business.

Thats why we need so much security, id cards, surveillance, control, e-privacy, policing in its various forms.

There is an interesting book The Free Economy and the Strong State: Politics of Thatcherism

I will look it up. Thanks.

CAS

Edited by coolaftershave

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So what happens to people like me who are prepared to take the risk of being blown up in exchange for not being biometrically scanned? Does it become illegal? Am I to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to the scanner?

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So what happens to people like me who are prepared to take the risk of being blown up in exchange for not being biometrically scanned? Does it become illegal? Am I to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to the scanner?

You won't be dragged kicking and screaming and not really illegal, just compulsorily.

Once you realise you can't buy a travel card,

operate a uk bank account,

apply for a mortgage ( no danger for most of the readers here then),

apply for a credit card,

send a recorded delivery parcel,

claim insurance.....

.... could list many more....

You will be lining up to get one.

Anyway, if you dont get an ID card the government will mop up people with your opinion when they renew their passport.

You can quote me on the following...

In 10 years time the UK will be a very different place.

CAS.

Edited by coolaftershave

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So what happens to people like me who are prepared to take the risk of being blown up in exchange for not being biometrically scanned? Does it become illegal? Am I to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to the scanner?

You will be fined 2500 pounds if you don't register for an ID card once it becomes compulsory. This is to stop (in Blunkett's words) 'clever people from becoming martyrs'.

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I'll agree with you in so far as you government are not as stupid as they appear.

ID cards a good thing, I think not. 1984 wasn't just about having lots of cameras

everywhere, which by itself wouldn't be so bad.

It was the fact that power had been consolidated to the point where the world had

literally become a fascist dictatorship, with a totally unaccountable hidden elite which

could literally do to the people whatever the hell it wanted.

Perpetual war is used as a way to give people a sense of purpose and meaning.

Obviously I'm a conspiracy nutter because I believe 9/11 was an inside job,

as a pretext to invade the middle east. So yeah, if you believe terrorism is real

and not just a government myth designed to convince people that we need wars

and ID cards then I can see why you would be in favour of it.

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You won't be dragged kicking and screaming and not really illegal, just compulsorily.

Once you realise you can't buy a travel card,

operate a uk bank account,

apply for a mortgage ( no danger for most of the readers here then),

apply for a credit card,

send a recorded delivery parcel,

claim insurance.....

.... could list many more....

You will be lining up to get one.

Anyway, if you dont get an ID card the government will mop up people with your opinion when they renew their passport.

You can quote me on the following...

In 10 years time the UK will be a very different place.

CAS.

Eventually your biometric data will be laser branded on your head or hand at birth and you will not be able to carry out any financial transaction without it.

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You will be fined 2500 pounds if you don't register for an ID card once it becomes compulsory. This is to stop (in Blunkett's words) 'clever people from becoming martyrs'.

How will they stop people with no money?

Anyway, if the system is good enough to identify everyone, every time, and builds a database of their usual behaviour etc., we don't ever need to turn up to be scanned. The first time we are seen on a camera an account will be created; it simply won't have our name attached, but this sytem of yours doesn't need our name to know our usual movements etc. If this was the goal of the government with ID cards, they could do it far more easily without the actual ID cards.

Edited by JJJ

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How will they stop people with no money?

They'll ID you up. Give you a bank account, and the corresponding amount of debt.

Then stick you in a concentration camp as a slave.

Bit like what people voluntarily do to themselves today, except there will be no escape.

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They'll ID you up. Give you a bank account, and the corresponding amount of debt.

Then stick you in a concentration camp as a slave.

Bit like what people voluntarily do to themselves today, except there will be no escape.

:D LOL

That made me chuckle.... no escape eh?

CAS

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Isn't there "a religion" that advocates women hiding the facial features behind a black veil except for the eyes?

Did you know that Turkey has banned that dress for women in public, in the work place?

It was on the BBC a month back. Only danger areas where people don't go to can't be policed.

So if a 99% muslim population can ban that dress... there is an argument to banning it here in the uk...

in the name of all citizen security.

What happend in france?

Link: Turkey, wiki....

Nominally, 99% of the population is Muslim. Most belong to the Sunni branch of Islam. About 15-20% of the population are Alevi Muslims. There is also a small but significant Twelver Shi'a minority, mainly of Azeri descent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey#Religion

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Did you know that Turkey has banned that dress for women in public, in the work place?

It was on the BBC a month back. Only danger areas where people don't go to can't be policed.

So if a 99% muslim population can ban that dress... there is an argument to banning it here in the uk...

in the name of all citizen security.

What happend in france?

Link: Turkey, wiki....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey#Religion

In France you're not allowed to wear anything to school that denotes what religion you are - e.g crucifixes on a chain, or the headdress worn by muslims. I think a young muslim girl challenged this, as wearing the headdress is required by her religion (unlike crucifixes on a chain, which are choice and jewellry rather than a requirement of the christian faith), but I don't think she won...

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Just rememberd a documentry i have seen on a global face recognition system for casinos...

Some students from MIT were employed to scam casinos and they had a good

run... untill face recognition was used... they were then caught playing in France!

SO... I have full faith in face recognition.

I hope some others will be able to remember this story... I tried searching on googe with the following

"face recognition" catches gambling MIT students

but the first link is broken....

I have faith in the technology.

CAS

This was a few years back... technology would have advanced further...

Edited by coolaftershave

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Just rememberd a documentry i have seen on a global face recognition system for casinos...

Some students from MIT were employed to scam casinos and they had a good

run... untill face recognition was used... they were then caught playing in France!

SO... I have full faith in face recognition.

I hope some others will be able to remember this story... I tried searching on googe with the following

"face recognition" catches gambling MIT students

but the first link is broken....

I have faith in the technology.

CAS

This was a few years back... technology would have advanced further...

A little bird just told me...

http://semyon.com/abc%20primetime.htm

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Casino facial recognition software is the best in the world.

It's quite amusing that so called "sin industries" such as gambling and pornography are the key players in the advancement of certain technologies.

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Whilst on the subject of surveillance....

Has anyone taken a look at the google ads for this topic?

Advertising car number plate recognition technology and i would not be surprised if we saw one for face recognition.

CAS.

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In the same way as Kens congestion charge system this new security system detects a face, then sends that face to another system to identify it just like at the airport. What does this mean? Well, the technology exists and a government would be stupid not to use it to find out….

1) Where you are.

2) When you are.

3) Who you are.

4) Your state of mind.

5) If you are going about your usual business.

I know that's supposed to sound horrendous, but I really don't care if "the government" knows where I am or the rest of it. Why would they be interested? More fool them. If they really want to know that I went to the cinema tonight, then popped into the pub for a quick beer afterwards, so be it. They're welcome to such fascinating information.

The upside of this apparent invasion of privacy is that "they" will also know where known criminals and suspected terrorists are, and what they're up to. Hmm. Yeah OK, I'll accept the ignominy of someone knowing that I prefer shopping at Asda to Waitrose, as long as I benefit from being protected from the real baddies.

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  • 302 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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      • down 5% +
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