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Brown Is Totalitarian Nutcase?


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HOLA441

Sigh. Bladerunner and 1984 have a lot to answer for.

For heaven's sake, learn to distinguish reality from the stuff you watch at the cinema. 1984 is a great book but er, it isn't real y'know.

You're complaining about something that exists only in your imagination.

Stop being patronising. I'm not suggesting the world we live in is like either of those, but the similarities between 1984 and modern day Britain are very scary.

We're not complaing about something that exists only in or imaginations, we are raising our concerns about how we forsee the future. Hopefully you will be proven right so you can sit in your rocking chair laughing out loud at the rest of us.

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HOLA442
Guest grumpy-old-man

BS?

Very appropriate. :lol:

aahhh, so you are talking to me...just ;)

can I ask you a question BF, how old are you ? I don't mean it in a patronising way I am just interested.

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HOLA443

You're being silly.

Are you suggesting that some people want ID cards in the hope that..... that they will be personally responsible for awarding IT contracts to..... American conglomerates, which they will do so on the basis of..... how much they will be bribed?

Jesus Christ.

All the nuts are coming out tonight.

No, that's not what I'm saying. Why don't you re-read what I wrote. I am saying that there are more cost effective means of achieving (the governments) stated aims of an ID card scheme. I am also backing this up by referring you to the article in the register (which is well worth reading). I am sticking by my assertion that there is more in this for the corporations that implement the scheme than there is for the taxpaying British public. Get your facts straight before you misconstrue what I wrote and accuse me of being a nut.

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HOLA444
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HOLA445
Guest grumpy-old-man

We were never headed towards Orwell's 1984, but we are heading towards Huxley's Brave New World at an ever faster pace.

stop posting interesting stuff....you made me google now instead of going to bed :rolleyes:

http://www.huxley.net/

this world sounds far more scary, I had a quick (really quick) read of the site & there has been a few films released this year that fit this scenario

Aldous Huxley

(1894-1963)

Edited by grumpy-old-man
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HOLA446

How else do you explain EDS getting contract after contract after screw up after screw up? Wake up and smel the bull shit. It Bloody STINKS!

Unfortunately, some people would prefer to carry on living in their Alice in Wonderland vision of reality where that nice Mr. Brown is just a friendly Ronald McDonald figure that has his (BF) and everybody else's best interests at heart. :lol:

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HOLA447

BF, I wish I could come & live in your nice safe & secure world with my family & have your optimistic view on everything. :(

I am by nature a very optimistic person in many personal areas of my life, the bits I can control, but the wider picture is getting very blurred in the UK & World & it will be very, very different in 10 years time...trust me.

I sense a bad tone in your reply is the impending crraassshhh & looming recession/depression worrying you ?

I am an optimist, it's true, but that doesn't mean I trust everyone in all circumstances. I just think that ID cards are one of those things that people are totally irrational about. Crazy as it might sound, I would like the authorities to know exactly who is in this country at any one time, and where they get their income. We've got so sensitive about civil liberties that such a view sounds really extreme. But why should it be? If 'the government' knew more about who was doing what I would actually feel safer not threatened.

As for your final question, a HP crash wouldn't really bother me. I'm in it for the long term so even if prices dropped significantly in the next year or so (big if) I've no doubt they'll recover like they always do.

I don't think a recession is likely in the short term. I trust Gordon Brown to do what's necessary.

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HOLA448
Guest grumpy-old-man

I am an optimist, it's true, but that doesn't mean I trust everyone in all circumstances. I just think that ID cards are one of those things that people are totally irrational about. Crazy as it might sound, I would like the authorities to know exactly who is in this country at any one time, and where they get their income. We've got so sensitive about civil liberties that such a view sounds really extreme. But why should it be? If 'the government' knew more about who was doing what I would actually feel safer not threatened.

As for your final question, a HP crash wouldn't really bother me. I'm in it for the long term so even if prices dropped significantly in the next year or so (big if) I've no doubt they'll recover like they always do.

I don't think a recession is likely in the short term. I trust Gordon Brown to do what's necessary.

what the next 6 months then I agree, but after reading the greenenergyinvestor stuff & bits from here I think 2-3 years we will be in a big recession IMHO as I am very new to economics (but I learn quick).

anyway BF, thanks for the reply & I am off to bed now :)

goodnight all

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HOLA449

Yes you could but the police wouldn't have a database that could bring up a name within an hour or so.

If the technology is there and can be misused, it will be misused.

But that database could also be used to bring up a name "within an hour or so" of the person who had actually committed the crime!

Blimey, talk about always looking on the gloomy side.

If DNA technology had existed earlier, think of all the people whose lives would have been saved by their attackers having been caught sooner for earlier offences. (Think Peter Sutcliffe.)

There is a positive side to wanting crime to be detected more successfully and more quickly. The more DNA records available to the police, the better.

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HOLA4410

Sorry, I don't follow you.

It's not illegal, and never will be, to disagree with the government. If I disagree with them I will vote against them.

No, this is just your Mad Max/computer game/ futuristic Armageddon mindset that a lot of people on here are cripppled by. You can't distinguish reality from absent-minded alarmist fantasy.

Actually it may very well be. How about distinguishing reality from history? Truly repetetive history. Control is what it is all about and always will be. You really ought to look into some of the recent legislation that has been passed.

Little crime bills that allow Police to arrest you, dna and fingerprint you, on the basis they don't like your manner.

Bills that allow the PM to amend or put through any legislation he chooses without debate or vote.

Bills that prevent demonstrations within a mile or so of parliament. Bills that allow peaceful demonstrators or hecklers to be arrested on powers granted for the "fight against terrorism".

How long are you planning on sleepwalking into this?

Martin Niemöller had something to say about it.

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HOLA4411

yeah, the theory sounds great....but in practice :o

we have a very corrupt police force.............

That is a ridiculous thing to say.

You wouldn't know what "a very corrupt police force" was if you tripped over it.

The UK police today are cleaner than they have ever been. They may be lazy and over-bureaucratic and not very innovative, but there is very little corruption. Only last week or so there was an allegation that a police officer may have taken a bribe a few years ago from the father of one of the Stephem Lawrence murder suspects. Far from illustrating how corrupt the police are, the massive publicity and sense of shock in the media (and in the Met) about this allegation actually shows how clean the police are.

Do you think such an allegation in Buenos Aires would have merited even one inch in the papers? No way. In places like that it's endemic and a way of life. Here? No.

Again, wild exaggeration.

the similarities between 1984 and modern day Britain are very scary.

Re-read the book.

You're nuts.

Actually it may very well be. How about distinguishing reality from history? Truly repetetive history. Control is what it is all about and always will be. You really ought to look into some of the recent legislation that has been passed.

Little crime bills that allow Police to arrest you, dna and fingerprint you, on the basis they don't like your manner.

Bills that allow the PM to amend or put through any legislation he chooses without debate or vote.

Bills that prevent demonstrations within a mile or so of parliament. Bills that allow peaceful demonstrators or hecklers to be arrested on powers granted for the "fight against terrorism".

How long are you planning on sleepwalking into this?

Martin Niemöller had something to say about it.

Some fair points. I'm totally against Blair's presidential style, and regard it as deeply anti-democratic. People may bemoan Brown as PM but at least he is more traditional in his attitude to the sovereignty of parliament. The current Lebanon crisis shows all that is bad about Blair's style.

I don't know who MN is, I'm ashamed to say.

Will Google him tomorrow, but I must get to bed right now.

Let's hope that THEY don't come for me while I sleep....

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HOLA4412

Only last week or so there was an allegation that a police officer may have taken a bribe a few years ago from the father of one of the Stephem Lawrence murder suspects. Far from illustrating how corrupt the police are, the massive publicity and sense of shock in the media (and in the Met) about this allegation actually shows how clean the police are.

And so, on the basis of one media report, we are to accept the UK police as whiter than white, above suspicion for any wrongdoing. Case closed. :rolleyes:

The UK police now apparently carry out summary execution of people they suspect of being terrorists. They regularly harass motorists and arrive late to the scenes of countless crimes. Yes, the UK police are brilliant, just brilliant. The UK police are so good in fact, that I would willingly sell my house and all its contents and donate it to the UK Police slush fund. More police discos and days out for PC's and their families I say - hell, we should even build them free houses in the most sought after spots because they do such a good job at cutting crime. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

You're nuts.

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HOLA4413
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HOLA4414

IMO the police don't bother because the judicary don't convict because the prison system is full because of the governments failure to build more prisons....

Electronic tagging might be the way forward. Unfortunately it still costs the tax payer and the "prisoner" lolls about all day at home in his flat, payed for courtesy of the council tax payer. Prison should be productive. Perhaps chain gangs should be brought back. The M4 could do with resurfacing.

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HOLA4415

Electronic tagging might be the way forward. Unfortunately it still costs the tax payer and the "prisoner" lolls about all day at home in his flat, payed for courtesy of the council tax payer. Prison should be productive. Perhaps chain gangs should be brought back. The M4 could do with resurfacing.

I agree get those imates to work, but back to the thread i'm not a fan of the id card et all, iam not a fan of total security using cameras and a dna data base of the whole pop. it's a violation of my rights as a human and anti democratic meaning there was no public vote for the above, a few elite choose to do it to protect their interest no our interests. it can be misused like everything the government does, it will be sold to companies.

My dna makeup belongs to me not to anyone else i should have the right of sale, not the government, my DNA is my property that no one has a right to know.

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HOLA4416

I agree get those imates to work, but back to the thread i'm not a fan of the id card et all, iam not a fan of total security using cameras and a dna data base of the whole pop. it's a violation of my rights as a human and anti democratic meaning there was no public vote for the above, a few elite choose to do it to protect their interest no our interests. it can be misused like everything the government does, it will be sold to companies.

My dna makeup belongs to me not to anyone else i should have the right of sale, not the government, my DNA is my property that no one has a right to know.

Agreed.

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HOLA4417

And so, on the basis of one media report, we are to accept the UK police as whiter than white, above suspicion for any wrongdoing. Case closed. :rolleyes:

The UK police now apparently carry out summary execution of people they suspect of being terrorists. They regularly harass motorists and arrive late to the scenes of countless crimes. Yes, the UK police are brilliant, just brilliant. The UK police are so good in fact, that I would willingly sell my house and all its contents and donate it to the UK Police slush fund. More police discos and days out for PC's and their families I say - hell, we should even build them free houses in the most sought after spots because they do such a good job at cutting crime. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

You're nuts.

A classic HPC contribution to a debate. P1sspoor. Utterly illogical, and missing the point entirely.

The story about Clifford Norris allegedly paying money to the detective was an interesting illustration of our attitude to police corruption. That one supposed payment was headline news for 2 or 3 days and filled the airwaves. What does that tell you? You can choose to interpret the news story as 'proof' that the police are taking bribes left, right and centre. Or you can choose to regard its newsworthiness as an illustration that this sort of thing doesn't happen very much. A good example of the exception proving the rule, surely?

I'm neither pro- or anti-police. I've known a lot of police officers in my time because I used to work with them - from lowly constables to very high ranks. A lot of them lower down the hierarchy are pretty stupid and their security of tenure makes them lazy and disincentivised. But corrupt? No, not in my experience.

You lost me with your other paragraph, sorry. Nothing wrong with a rant, go for it, but you can't expect me to take that seriously as a debating point.

Do we live in a paradise, free from corruption and bad judgement? Of course we don't. All I ask is that you try to be balanced, and see the difference between the real world and alarmist fantasy.

...my DNA is my property that no one has a right to know.

Your DNA belongs to you, yes. Who said anything else? Your fingerprints belong to you. Your words belong to you. Your blood belongs to you.

But if you're suspected of a serious crime, society expects all these things to be examined. It's the legal system we live under. If you've got a better idea let's hear it. If your wife or girlfriend or a mate of yours was murdered, you would want the police to do anything possible to track down the culprit.

Thousands of people have been convicted with the help of DNA evidence. Without exception (in my knowledge - I may be wrong), the DNA evidence is used to corroborate other evidence. It's a fantastic development.

What really frustrates me is the one-way only view people take on this sort of issue. If the police knocked on my door and said, "we have been tipped off that you committed a murder last week. We need a DNA sample from you", I would want to give that sample right away to prove my innocence.

Why do you only think that DNA proves only guilt? It clears many times more people of suspicion than it incriminates.

The only people who should resist giving a sample, are those with something to hide.

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HOLA4418

Why are NuLabour so in love with the idea total of surveillence and so keen to share its possibilities with their big biz cronies?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/07/brown_id_expansion/

Power corrupts. The US Constitution now has a 2 term limit for Presidents. FDR served almost 4 terms and some say he was America's only dictator. The B's have been in office for far too long and its time for a dramatic change. One example, the idea of spys in the car to measure mileage, speed, destination etc. should be sending alarm bells off.

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HOLA4419
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HOLA4420

Having a silicon chip implant will make you a slave that can be controlled and ID cards are the first step in steering the public towards that end goal.

The state already takes over 60% from what I earn, just how much will they take when they have total control and what will happen to me if I say anything that the government does not like.

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HOLA4421

I don't have any problem at all with surveillance. "Big Brother" would have absolutely no interest in me unless I was acting against the greater good of society. I really don't care that someone somewhere could discover what I bought in the supermarket last week. They can do that already.

If the authorities knew exactly who was in the country at any one time, and had the ability to work out where everyone was and what they were doing at a given point, perhaps we'd have much less crime. Fine by me.

I also think that we should have our DNA recorded at birth or when new immigrants arrive. Another good anti-crime measure. If you could make society more orderly think how much more money would be available for financing socially useful programs which would further diminish the conditions that give rise to criminal behaviour and social unrest.

In short, we'd all be happier.

ID cards? Bring them on. It's time to start freaking out the troublemakers.

Your staunch defence of oppression and tyranny is most disheartening. We have a government who have made the telling of Welsh jokes a criminal offence. Government agencies have introduced swinging fines for the smallest errors or oversights (e.g. car tax) by the public but their own gross incompetance is ignored. We have policemen who shoot more innocent people than guilty ones. We have public servants who take information from the police computers for personal gain. We have tax inspectors who go on fishing expeditions and use threaks and intimidation to extort money out of innocent people. Local councils have turned a legitimate need to control parking into a vicious scam. The government is also looking at slashing compensation for people wrongly convicted.

Your views remind me of the prisoner chained to the wall in the 'Life of Brian'.

Edited by dog
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HOLA4422
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HOLA4423

Anyone who still has any positive thoughts about ID Cards should read this article by Henry Porter:

Beware of Card Tricks

The government's arguments in favour of ID cards keep shifting, and the hugely expensive project has been sold to the British public on a false prospectus. The government began by saying it would prevent terrorism. When that wasn't tenable, it said it would prevent ID theft. When that didn't work, it said it would prevent benefit fraud and when that didn't work it resorted to claiming that it would help control illegal immigration.
Every time you get a library card, make a hire-purchase agreement, apply for a fishing or gun licence, buy a piece of property, withdraw a fairly small amount of your money from your bank, take a prescription to your chemist, apply for a resident's parking permit, buy a plane ticket, or pay for your car to be unclamped you will be required to swipe your card and the database will silently record the transaction. There will be almost no part of your life that the state will not be able to inspect. And it will be able to use the database to draw very precise conclusions about the sort of person you are - your spending habits, your ethnicity, your religion, your political leanings, your health and even perhaps your sexual preferences. Little wonder that MI5 desired - and was granted - free access to the database. Little wonder that the police, customs and tax authorities welcome the database as a magnificent aid to investigation.
But know this: from the moment the database goes live, we will become subjects not citizens and each one of us will be diminished in relation to the state's power.
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HOLA4424

An ID card that is a sure fire way of making it easier to commit identity fraud as we become too reliant on biometrics. The article in the register picked up on this nicely. It goes without saying really. An ID card that is 100% accurate also has the nasty effect of putting a price on various body parts in order to gain access with fingerprints, retina scans etc. Again, the article picks up on this. I am inclined to agree that when commercial principles are applied to the whole ID card proposal, the ID card scheme in its current form just wouldn't float as there are no demonstrable cost savings to society which cannot be achieved by cheaper means. We need more intelligent data mining and linking of existing systems to track ID and benefits fraud, not some stupid piece of government plastic which placates the ministers in whitehall who want to award lucrative contracts to the american corporations that would no doubt benefit from the implementation of the ID card scheme with the accompanying kickbacks to the ministers involved. NuLabor is just piling the gravy into the troughs of various companies like EDS in its orgy of waste of tax payers money.

A system where NO single golden source exists which can be used to uniquely identify all actors within the system is not complete (think of it in terms of soundness and completeness i.e. the value of the inferences garnered from the system). As such this type of non-well-ordered system is NOT amenable to sound logical inferences (either by machine or man).

Unique ID cards which provide complete coverage are the cornerstone of any "population processing system" (think DB design and Primary Keys).

Current forms of identification differ in the UK differ from the ID cards in this respect and as such are not equivalent in power (in this sense of power "Being equivalent to the universal Turing machine essentially means being able to perform [facilitate] any computational task " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing-complete).

The EU ID system fails as the UK represents a nexus which breaks the logical soundness of the EU-wide system. As such ID cards (+DB + registration +sus law) will become a reality in the UK irrespective of which party wins the next election.

It has nothing to do with Big Business, "Bliar", Charles Clark or any other local UK phenomenon.

It is what the powers driving the reality of a single EU zone want and it will come to pass.

p.s. I dont support ID cards

Edited by Wuluf
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HOLA4425

:ph34r:

I don't have any problem at all with surveillance. "Big Brother" would have absolutely no interest in me unless I was acting against the greater good of society. I really don't care that someone somewhere could discover what I bought in the supermarket last week. They can do that already.

If the authorities knew exactly who was in the country at any one time, and had the ability to work out where everyone was and what they were doing at a given point, perhaps we'd have much less crime. Fine by me.

I also think that we should have our DNA recorded at birth or when new immigrants arrive. Another good anti-crime measure. If you could make society more orderly think how much more money would be available for financing socially useful programs which would further diminish the conditions that give rise to criminal behaviour and social unrest.

In short, we'd all be happier.

ID cards? Bring them on. It's time to start freaking out the troublemakers.

We dont need ID cards.

We need:

Corporal punishment in schools

Screened selection for immigration

Women to bring up their own kids until they go to school

Banks to only take one income into account when lending money

All of the above will lead to a more ordered, respectful and prosperous Britain, with less crime. :ph34r:

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