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Universitybubble Part Ii

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Another sign of huge inflation - pay more, get a lot less.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,3010...6,00.html?f=rss

Graduates left scrubbing dishes (Title seems to have changed, the old embedded title in the HTML hasn't, censored?)

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,3010...6,00.html?f=rss

Overeducated For Jobs

Updated: 06:48, Sunday July 23, 2006

A third of university graduates are in jobs that do not need a degree.

Many are stacking shelves, washing dishes or working in bars, figures prepared according to research by the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA).

The agency said 34.4% of UK students who finished their first degrees in 2004-05 and went into full-time jobs were in "non-graduate" work.

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticl...ticleID=1645799

Debt shock for graduates

Ian Briggs

FUTURE students, and their parents, are unprepared for the levels of debt they could be burdened with when they graduate, new research claims.

Despite the introduction of increased top-up fees of up to £3,000, students estimate their average level of debt on graduation will be £6,199, according to the annual Association of Investment Trust Companies (AITC) survey.

Parents fared little better, expecting their children to graduate with £7,080 of university debt.

But with the average debt on graduation currently estimated at £13,500, and with tuition fees of £3,000 a year being introduced, they could be left with a painful shortfall.

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Well, at least their not showing up on the unemployment lists - the whole reason the Government expanded 'higher education' (to keep them off the unemployment stats) - plus they are motivated to work to pay off the debts they've accrued - how cynical is that!!!

The tragedy is most of them are not even aware what's going on - it's gonna hit them hard when they finally do...

Edited by dnd

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Yeah, Celia Green is great, if a bit nutty in her own way :). I loved 'The Human Evasion' even though I disagree with some of her positions in it.

Either way, if I ever do have kids I'll strongly recommend them not to go to university unless they have a very good reason to do so. It's not worth the cost and waste of money just for a piece of paper.

Edited by MarkG

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quite where the jobs were going to come from is anyone's guess....

They want 50% of people to study degrees...

If 50% of people were intelligent to qualify for a degree then they would be intelligent enough to realise that the country had no need for 50% of them to have degrees.

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Yeah, Celia Green is great, if a bit nutty in her own way :). I loved 'The Human Evasion' even though I disagree with some of her positions in it.

Either way, if I ever do have kids I'll strongly recommend them not to go to university unless they have a very good reason to do so. It's not worth the cost and waste of money just for a piece of paper.

Parents love telling you their kids are at Uni, they just can't help themselves, the fact that it's now expensive brings them extra status. It become another part of the uniform.

quite where the jobs were going to come from is anyone's guess....

They want 50% of people to study degrees...

If 50% of people were intelligent to qualify for a degree then they would be intelligent enough to realise that the country had no need for 50% of them to have degrees.

No! We're all 'living the dream' like Chantelle off BB. 50% of school leavers into uni, living longer, getting richer, bigger diks. What's wrong with you man? :rolleyes:

IMO anyone can do a degree, if they actually want to. With the exception of physics, chemistry and maths; who wants to do them anyway, borrrring! You wanna do a proper degree like golf course management, American studies or nail varnish procurement.

Edited by dom

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its like the girl in the apprentice, she came out of uni and started to work in a management consultant company 3 years later she signs up for the apprentice, and says "we need 100 chickens for 100 pizza" :huh: rofl and they all agreed. i would have sacked them all :lol:

Edited by crash2006

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the whole reason the Government expanded 'higher education' (to keep them off the unemployment stats)

No actually they thought that the better level of education would make people more productive and that the increase in productivity would in turn create more graduate type jobs.

The UK has a lower skills base than our major competitors.. i.e. Germany, France, US, Japan not to mention most other smaller european countries such as Netherlands, Sweden,, Switzerland etc etc

The problem is that the UK interpretation of skills is fundamentally biased against more practical disciplines.

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The problem is that the UK interpretation of skills is fundamentally biased against more practical disciplines.

Which is why skilled trades people are now earning more than graduates.

Edited by dom

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First post! Hi everybody, great forum etc.

Graduate jobs are something I feel I can rant about with great authority having spent years looking for a half decent one, so here goes.

IMO the reason for the government wanting so many to go to university works something like this:

30 years or so ago many people had access to a greater degree of social mobility than ever before. Plenty of people from working class backgrounds were able to go to grammar school, get good A levels leading on to a good job and a rise to the dizzying heights of the middle class. My own father is a great example of this - he grew up in a family of 5 children and his dad worked on the railways. He went to grammar school, got a job with a bank and worked his way up to being a bank manager.

It is important to note at this point that many people from this kind of background also voted for Phoney Tony and New Labour.

These people then expect an even greater level of opportunity for their own children. A phrase I heard time and time again when I applied to university 10 years ago was "you're so lucky - I never had the opportunity to go to university when I was your age" and "a degree opens so many doors for you". This means that an unprecedented demand is created for university places. The government is more than happy to comply as it keeps all of those nice middle class voters happy and discourages them from voting Tory. In any case the economy is better than ever, technology and media companies are just falling over themselves to employ UK graduates and in any case, all those degrees in Business Management, Media and Hairdressing can only help as after all we're a "knowledge economy" now.

Hmmm.

There are, sadly, a couple of problems in this scenario.

Critically, there are just not that many graduate jobs out there, and I rather suspect that the number of real graduate jobs, real ones that you actually need some genuine talent and brain power for are a little less than 50% of the total. Quite a lot less in fact. I also rather suspect that this number is actually declining somewhat. It certainly has in I.T. where I used to work.

The second is that the education system in this country appears to be rapidly hurtling towards the point of being completely unfit for purpose. Qualifications, from GCSE all the way up to degree are being dummed down and devalued to the point where businesses and top universities are beginning to seriously question their value. At a time of unprecedented global competition, we are rapidly giving up one of our few remaining competative advanteges, namely a strong skills base of world class brainpower and talent.

So where does this leave us when all of the I.T. jobs have been outsourced to India and the Japanese start calling in the debt?

Phew, long first post, but there goes my HPC forum cherry!

Night all

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Guest Charlie The Tramp

Which is why skilled trades people are now earning more than graduates.

I was told a highly skilled time served Stonemason can command £1k a day and a organ tuner ( church ) charges £500 a day.

A Consultant who carried out a procedure on myself charged £828 for 20 minutes work. Well he is a tradesman in a way. :blink:

Evidently skilled grave diggers are in short supply.

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First post! Hi everybody, great forum etc.

Graduate jobs are something I feel I can rant about with great authority having spent years looking for a half decent one, so here goes.

IMO the reason for the government wanting so many to go to university works something like this:

30 years or so ago many people had access to a greater degree of social mobility than ever before. Plenty of people from working class backgrounds were able to go to grammar school, get good A levels leading on to a good job and a rise to the dizzying heights of the middle class. My own father is a great example of this - he grew up in a family of 5 children and his dad worked on the railways. He went to grammar school, got a job with a bank and worked his way up to being a bank manager.

It is important to note at this point that many people from this kind of background also voted for Phoney Tony and New Labour.

These people then expect an even greater level of opportunity for their own children. A phrase I heard time and time again when I applied to university 10 years ago was "you're so lucky - I never had the opportunity to go to university when I was your age" and "a degree opens so many doors for you". This means that an unprecedented demand is created for university places. The government is more than happy to comply as it keeps all of those nice middle class voters happy and discourages them from voting Tory. In any case the economy is better than ever, technology and media companies are just falling over themselves to employ UK graduates and in any case, all those degrees in Business Management, Media and Hairdressing can only help as after all we're a "knowledge economy" now.

Hmmm.

There are, sadly, a couple of problems in this scenario.

Critically, there are just not that many graduate jobs out there, and I rather suspect that the number of real graduate jobs, real ones that you actually need some genuine talent and brain power for are a little less than 50% of the total. Quite a lot less in fact. I also rather suspect that this number is actually declining somewhat. It certainly has in I.T. where I used to work.

The second is that the education system in this country appears to be rapidly hurtling towards the point of being completely unfit for purpose. Qualifications, from GCSE all the way up to degree are being dummed down and devalued to the point where businesses and top universities are beginning to seriously question their value. At a time of unprecedented global competition, we are rapidly giving up one of our few remaining competative advanteges, namely a strong skills base of world class brainpower and talent.

So where does this leave us when all of the I.T. jobs have been outsourced to India and the Japanese start calling in the debt?

Phew, long first post, but there goes my HPC forum cherry!

Night all

Yes long winded for what can be easily concluded.

University is no longer spend your time pissing around and come out with a shite media degree or what i recentlry heard internet engineering degree. it will get you nowhere. i did a straight computer science degree and graduated in 1999. very difficult time consuming head **** degree that has earnt me money in the long run but ONLY because i did well.

If you want to pi55 around and come out wih a 3rd or pass or even 2:2 nowadays forget it. work haaaard and do a degree that will work for you in the furture or forget it you will be paying fot it for a looooong time!!

come out with a 1st or do a masters and even then you MAY and i mean MAY get a job that someone that doesnt have a degree will get. If i left college and went for a job after that i would be much better off than now with 4 years more experience and earning money throughout that term instead of spending money and coming out in debt and spending 3 years paying it off.

the only good thing looking back is i had a laugh and pi55ed around and nothing more.. don't let your kids do it unless they are intelligent humans with the right tempremant and doing it for the right reason.. - to potentially beat the other rats in this race.

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University registrars up and down the country regularly report on the falling standards of kids coming into universities.

As a result, the end product the universities churn out every year is slightly worse than the year before. (cant make a slik purse out of a pigs ear)

There are a few universities that buck this trend but not many.

The universities get their remuneration for having "bums on seats" and especially if they are foreign bums, so they lever kids into into a course and keep them there because of the money they get.

The registraras report to the govenment each year about increased numbers of graduates and the Gov and universities congratulate each other.

A lot of busnisses nowadays dont regard many of these university graduates as anything other than cannon fodder. Businesses and graduates look at each other in disgust.

Govenment needs to recognise this and stop the madness by changing the way universities are remunerated.

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Guest Alright Jack

This is yet another huge bubble of halucinated prosperity.

In many ways, I find the education racket worse than the real estate racket because the government is even more directly involved in ramping this fraud. (Make no mistake, the real estate racket is also government sponsored)

I think I would like to explain my personal feelings in this way:-

There is no shame in doing an honest job, no matter how menial. However, I cannot envy the person who has gotten into many tens of thousands in debt for the privilage.

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University registrars up and down the country regularly report on the falling standards of kids coming into universities.

Odd that - they said the same when I was at Uni too (early 90s) and I'm pretty sure I remember a Socrates quote which suggests something similar.

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Universities are for very very clever people, who can be educated way above the average.

It used to be a tragic waste that some brilliant students could not go to uni due to funding while some very rich thickos bought their way in.

I would imagine the ratio of very very clever people to the average has varied little since time began.

All that was required was state funding for the brilliant.

The high influx of students now began as a ploy to combat unemployment, made even worse now by a high immigration into low tech employment.

I understand the student debt needs not to be paid until earning not much above the minimum wage, why spend an extra 6 years at school to earn so little & the fact so many do strengthens the case.

Since primary schools are closing due to lack of kids it stands to reason that this fate will befall a few 'unis' or polytechnics as they used to be called before they bought the uni title.

I don't agree standards are dropping , just changing like most candidates are computer literate now etc.

I also praise the current batch of youngsters rejecting the too well beaten path of dossing at school for a few years extra then complaining that their degree is worthless.

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quite where the jobs were going to come from is anyone's guess....

They want 50% of people to study degrees...

If 50% of people were intelligent to qualify for a degree then they would be intelligent enough to realise that the country had no need for 50% of them to have degrees.

To be fair, I think the 50% figure was for youngsters going onto some form of FE at age 18, and included all kinds of non-degree, vocational type courses.

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don't agree standards are dropping , just changing like most candidates are computer literate now etc.

Then I take it you haven't interviewed many recent graduates?

Even when I was at Oxford in the 80s it was clear from doing questions from exam papers from the 60s and 70s that ours were significantly easier.... and the dumbing down seems to have become far worse since then. After all, you can't let anyone fail, that would hurt their self-esteem: and your income from next year's crop of students... why would they pay all that money only to fail at the end of their course?

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Then I take it you haven't interviewed many recent graduates?

Even when I was at Oxford in the 80s it was clear from doing questions from exam papers from the 60s and 70s that ours were significantly easier.... and the dumbing down seems to have become far worse since then. After all, you can't let anyone fail, that would hurt their self-esteem: and your income from next year's crop of students... why would they pay all that money only to fail at the end of their course?

This still doesn't mean that standards are dropping, the clever will learn & the lazy/thick won't.

Giving lots of bits of paper to people saying you are clever doesn't mean that standards are dropping or raising,

'x' % of people will do a good job, 'y' % will do passable job, 'z' % will be crap.

Having bits of paper saying you are good are meaningless, just gets people off the dole queue & training longer, & gives the impression debt is acceptable.

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First post! Hi everybody, great forum etc.

Graduate jobs are something I feel I can rant about with great authority having spent years looking for a half decent one, so here goes.

....

Phew, long first post, but there goes my HPC forum cherry!

Night all

This is exactly how it is.

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A third of university graduates are in jobs that do not need a degree.

Many are stacking shelves, washing dishes or working in bars, figures prepared according to research by the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA).

A third of uni grads having to compete with the largest ever wave of immigration from eastern europe and 100,000s of people happy to work for minimum wage.

Suddenly I don't feel like I'm at the bottom of the pile anymore

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Guest donall

Just graduated last year in Chemical Engineering.

Everyone who got a 1st went on to a blue chip company, Shell, BP, GSK etc...

Those with 2nds who applied for and got jobs went on to work for other companies.

The scary thing was that those who didn't get first and didn't get jobs went on to do PhDs!

I suspected that it was to keep the universities league table standing artificially high.

Instead of having 30% unemployed - just put them in a lab for 3 years.

I have to say that university is not needed or desirable for most of the population.

The middle-class myth is that you can by going to uni. expect to get a well-paid job. If your kid is thick make them do an easier subject (i.e. not chemical engineering) and if your kid is truly thick, just say that they have dyslexia.

Another problem I have is people studying business degrees without having any business experience.

I think that people see it as a fast-track to mega-bucks but the reality is that a mate of mine with an MBA at the age of 25 is the deputy manager of Subway.

The future isn't that bright for yound graduates these days - especially if they continue to get into debt after uni. buying expensive holidays, cars, exec. flats etc...

Donall

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This still doesn't mean that standards are dropping, the clever will learn & the lazy/thick won't.

Nonsense. If people are getting firsts today who'd have got 2:1s or worse twenty years ago, how can standards not be dropping?

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First post! Hi everybody, great forum etc.

Graduate jobs are something I feel I can rant about with great authority having spent years looking for a half decent one, so here goes.

IMO the reason for the government wanting so many to go to university works something like this:

30 years or so ago many people had access to a greater degree of social mobility than ever before. Plenty of people from working class backgrounds were able to go to grammar school, get good A levels leading on to a good job and a rise to the dizzying heights of the middle class. My own father is a great example of this - he grew up in a family of 5 children and his dad worked on the railways. He went to grammar school, got a job with a bank and worked his way up to being a bank manager.

It is important to note at this point that many people from this kind of background also voted for Phoney Tony and New Labour.

These people then expect an even greater level of opportunity for their own children. A phrase I heard time and time again when I applied to university 10 years ago was "you're so lucky - I never had the opportunity to go to university when I was your age" and "a degree opens so many doors for you". This means that an unprecedented demand is created for university places. The government is more than happy to comply as it keeps all of those nice middle class voters happy and discourages them from voting Tory. In any case the economy is better than ever, technology and media companies are just falling over themselves to employ UK graduates and in any case, all those degrees in Business Management, Media and Hairdressing can only help as after all we're a "knowledge economy" now.

Hmmm.

There are, sadly, a couple of problems in this scenario.

Critically, there are just not that many graduate jobs out there, and I rather suspect that the number of real graduate jobs, real ones that you actually need some genuine talent and brain power for are a little less than 50% of the total. Quite a lot less in fact. I also rather suspect that this number is actually declining somewhat. It certainly has in I.T. where I used to work.

The second is that the education system in this country appears to be rapidly hurtling towards the point of being completely unfit for purpose. Qualifications, from GCSE all the way up to degree are being dummed down and devalued to the point where businesses and top universities are beginning to seriously question their value. At a time of unprecedented global competition, we are rapidly giving up one of our few remaining competative advanteges, namely a strong skills base of world class brainpower and talent.

So where does this leave us when all of the I.T. jobs have been outsourced to India and the Japanese start calling in the debt?

Phew, long first post, but there goes my HPC forum cherry!

Night all

Good post.....welcome!

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