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Golden Brown

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A peer,Lady Noakes asked the Treasury about the sales and it is reported that Minister ,Lord McKenzie produced a long waffle of an answer which said how much gold had fluctuated in price after the end of the Bretton Woods agreement.Given such variations,said Lord McKenzie,it was "inappropriate to measure gains or losses"

In other words "We've lost a packet but we're not telling exactly how much"

Any inspired guesses out there?

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A peer,Lady Noakes asked the Treasury about the sales and it is reported that Minister ,Lord McKenzie produced a long waffle of an answer which said how much gold had fluctuated in price after the end of the Bretton Woods agreement.Given such variations,said Lord McKenzie,it was "inappropriate to measure gains or losses"

In other words "We've lost a packet but we're not telling exactly how much"

Any inspired guesses out there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Brown

In 2001 Brown sold 60% of the UK's gold reserves at $275 an ounce.[7] It was later attacked as a "disastrous foray into international asset management" [8] as he had sold at close to a 20-year low. Prices went on to reach $700 an ounce in May 2006 - he could have raised £4bn for the public had he waited[9] He pressured the IMF to do the same [1], but it resisted.

It was about 415 Tonnes or there abouts, and currently has cost the UK around £2.5Bil , I stand to be corrected on the exact amount.

D :)

Edited by Dames

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Guest mattsta1964

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Brown

In 2001 Brown sold 60% of the UK's gold reserves at $275 an ounce.[7] It was later attacked as a "disastrous foray into international asset management" [8] as he had sold at close to a 20-year low. Prices went on to reach $700 an ounce in May 2006 - he could have raised £4bn for the public had he waited[9] He pressured the IMF to do the same [1], but it resisted.

It was about 415 Tonnes or there abouts, and currently has cost the UK around £2.5Bil , I stand to be corrected on the exact amount.

D :)

The Prudent Chancellor :D

The UK's Gold reserves are our 'Get out of Jail' card if things go Pete Tong and Gordo sold 60% of it for a song

Brown is a thief, a charlatan and a fool. Hells Bells!

What to do if he become PM? Instant emigration for me. I'd rather shovel shit in Zimbabwe than live in the UK under Gordon Brown

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What to do if he become PM? Instant emigration for me. I'd rather shovel shit in Zimbabwe than live in the UK under Gordon Brown

I think you should think about emigrating now rather than later. The economy is set up for a fall, so it matters little who's running the country.

I will never forgive Brown for the pension dividend tax which has destroyed the public's faith in investment. So much damage has been done and so much waste. Brown is a bit like that super-chav who won the lottery and blew it all. Emigrate now and make sure you can get out in time!

Edited by Xurbia

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Guest mattsta1964

I think you should think about emigrating now rather than later. The economy is set up for a fall, so it matters little who's running the country.

I will never forgive Brown for the pension dividend tax which has destroyed the public's faith in investment. So much damage has been done and so much waste. Brown is a bit like that super-chav who won the lottery and blew it all. Emigrate now and make sure you can get out in time!

It might well be the case that instead of millions of people coming to th UK thanks to NU labour's open door immigration policy, the situation will be reversed. All the professional people who actually bother to crawl out of their pit and work for a living will realise they are screwed in the UK and we all bugger off to Poland instead. I hate what has happened to this country. It's run by spivs, liars and cheats, lining their own pockets and destroying our freedom and democracy under the false pretence of a perceived terrorist threat from a very small number of psychopaths. We don't even educate people anymore, just give them 10 GCSE's at A* grade for gobbing on their teachers. What hope for the future? Where are the Sex Pistols? Come back! Your country needs you

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I will never forgive Brown for the pension dividend tax which has destroyed the public's faith in investment.

Xurbia,

Can you just remind us of the details of, what you call, 'the pension dividend tax'? Do you, or does anyone else for that matter, have any idea of what effect it has/had on anyone's pension pot?

p

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For our new members and guests, pat-the-forum-primer works for, or is a fanatical supporter of, the incumbent government.

Can you tell us who else Prezza Pantsdown has been sh@gging?

btp

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Read this Telegraph article about Gordon Brown's "pensions tax grab"

I think the standard spin machine response to this is to describe it as the work of the Daily Fascist. Or Sunday Fascist.

Everything kicking off in the Middle East, and what is the foreign secretary discussing?

She's representing the british phonographic industry's concerns about an mp3 site.

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Xurbia,

Can you just remind us of the details of, what you call, 'the pension dividend tax'? Do you, or does anyone else for that matter, have any idea of what effect it has/had on anyone's pension pot?

p

As I suspected, not one of you has a clue what this 'pension dividend tax' is.

p

For our new members and guests, pat-the-forum-primer works for, or is a fanatical supporter of, the incumbent government.

btp

So, you think that the continual screaming of 'Nu labour scum' is serious discussion? It may be difficult for you to understand, but just because I wanted to point out the untruth about the so-called 'pension dividend tax' doesn't make me a fanatical supporter of anyone. Does it?

p

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As I suspected, not one of you has a clue what this 'pension dividend tax' is.

Even if that was true, it would be irrelevant. What matters is that people's beliefs about the tax are one of the reasons why they've lost faith in pensions... whether the actual reality supports that loss of faith doesn't matter, just as reality doesn't matter to house prices until it comes back to bite people on the ass.

So, you think that the continual screaming of 'Nu labour scum' is serious discussion?

Twenty years from now that's exactly what people will think of NuLab's record. They've been an absolute disaster for this country in the long term, though great if you just want to loot the productive people and then piss off abroad.

Edited by MarkG

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As I suspected, not one of you has a clue what this 'pension dividend tax' is.

Even if that was true...

But, that's the whole point, it is true! Even people like you, MarkG, who seems to have an opinion on this issue, haven't a clue, do you? Just to prove me wrong, give a couple of sentences to explain the 'tax'.

Seems to me that Tory Central Office invented the issue and the great unthinking have swallowed it, hook, line and sinker.

Prove me wrong, MarkG.

p

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So, you think that the continual screaming of 'Nu labour scum' is serious discussion? It may be difficult for you to understand, but just because I wanted to point out the untruth about the so-called 'pension dividend tax' doesn't make me a fanatical supporter of anyone. Does it?

p

Your use of the term "untruth" is VERY revealing!

You are correct that screaming "Nu Labour Scum" is about as helpful as depicting a former leader of the opposition, descended from jewish immigrants as a flying pig or a Fagin like character, or indeed comparing the current leader (who has a rise that seems very similar to that of our beloved PM) to a reptile.

Sorry I stole the Daily Fascist reponse - the party hymn sheet needs a few of the old cobwebs blown away though.

Speaking of blown away, do you know who else Prescott has been sh@gging on official business?

btp

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Pat Primer, do you really not understand what Gordon Brown did in 1997? Are you really that thick that you cannot understand basic economics?

In the budget of 1997 with a great fanfare Brown gave The Bank of England the freedom to set the bank base rate instead of by the ruling Govt. Hidden away later, in his Budget plans, he decided to tax the dividend credits of pension funds. He typically hid this by saying big companies would benefit from a reduction in Corporation tax.

What part of this do you not understand? Shall I repeat this or are we speaking the same language?

Since then pension funds have bombed, companies that used to have to take pension holidays have wound up their schemes or closed them to new members. On top of that the Treasury, under instruction from Brown nose have told pension trustess to lower the minimum funding value so even schemes that were in good shape eventually ran into trouble.

On top of that that have refused to accept the Parliamentary Ombudsman ruling on their wrong advice to company scheme members that lost their pension funds. Even now under order of the Freedom of Information Act they refuse to disclose the likely effects of Brown's tax grab in 1997, and how they were arrived at

PatPrimer, stop being such an apologist for this disgrace you call New Labour. I do not recognise any of this ruling shower as Labour. More like a bunch of spivs and wide boys who represent no one but themselves.

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But, that's the whole point, it is true! Even people like you, MarkG, who seems to have an opinion on this issue, haven't a clue, do you? Just to prove me wrong, give a couple of sentences to explain the 'tax'.

Seems to me that Tory Central Office invented the issue and the great unthinking have swallowed it, hook, line and sinker.

Prove me wrong, MarkG.

p

OK - i'll bite.

Brown's first budget abolished the 'imputation' system for dividends. Basically the ACT credit was treated like a prepayment of income tax and imputed to shareholders via a refundable dividend tax credit. Pension funds (as exempt institutions) were able to reclaim the tax credit and therefore withdrawl of the tax credit resulted in a diminution of pension fund income over time.

The IFS outlined the figures in the early years of the new system as a net gain to the treasury as follows:-

Changes to dividend taxation (in £' billions)

£2.3 1997/98

£3.95 1998/98

£5.4 1999/00

£5.4 2000/01

Saying that Tory Central Office "invented the issue" is pretty moronic, actually. If I could be bothered I could get hold of the relevant Finance Acts and quote the relevant sections, but I am out of the office for most of next week.

A brief look on the tories website (http://www.conservatives.com/pdf/TowardsALowerTaxEconomy.pdf) includes the following:-

"The abolition of ACT tax credits for tax-exempt shareholders announced in Gordon Brown’s first budget represents

the most blatant injustice in the savings arena, robbing pension funds of an estimated £5 billion annually. This tax change, in combination with means-testing of pension benefits, has blown a hole in what was Europe’s best system of pension provision and has brought the UK to the brink of a pension crisis."

Ignoring the somewhat hyperbolic language of her majesty's opposition and narrowing down the salient point as costing pension funds £5 billion per annum would seem pretty bang on the money... <_<

SPIN YOUR WAY OUT OF THAT ONE :D

Edited by gasket37

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I think you should think about emigrating now rather than later. The economy is set up for a fall, so it matters little who's running the country.

I will never forgive Brown for the pension dividend tax which has destroyed the public's faith in investment. So much damage has been done and so much waste. Brown is a bit like that super-chav who won the lottery and blew it all. Emigrate now and make sure you can get out in time!

He has killed all legitimate investments and has then managed to instil a belief into the housing market.

that was a hell of a thing, it had only just collapsed...

Quick guys.. everyone on board, lets try again.. :)

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As I suspected, not one of you has a clue what this 'pension dividend tax' is.

p

So, you think that the continual screaming of 'Nu labour scum' is serious discussion? It may be difficult for you to understand, but just because I wanted to point out the untruth about the so-called 'pension dividend tax' doesn't make me a fanatical supporter of anyone. Does it?

p

The dividends on pensions used to be untaxed before Brown. This is what I'm referring to. IT IS VERY REAL. I cannot quote the exact amount but it's probably something like 40 billion; just enough to screw up the pensions for good. In fact there's a select committee enquiry which Brown is appealing against right now. The shortfall in pensions is about equivalent to the amount raided. Why not just do some of your own research. Do you read the financial pages? We wouldn't have such high house prices if people weren't so scared about more of their monies being stolen.

I distrust this government and you should too. People cannot retire or are obliged to be means tested....all that is except for MPs with their gold plated schemes.

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For our new members and guests, pat-the-forum-primer works for, or is a fanatical supporter of, the incumbent government.

Can you tell us who else Prezza Pantsdown has been sh@gging?

btp

Thanks for that. I guess there had to at least one moron that still supports the government. Perhaps it's Prescock! He's got nothing else to do all day; fat, foolish, feculant, feckless fu*ker that he is.

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For our new members and guests, pat-the-forum-primer works for, or is a fanatical supporter of, the incumbent government.

I think you'll find the incumbent government is in fact their 'fanatical supporter'. Do not underestimate the sheer number of worthless highly paid bull$hit public sector jobs out there.

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I recall Gordon justifying the Pension dividend Tax because pension funds were in surplus in 1997. Funny how now they are in trouble he hasn't stopped raiding the pension funds? Still being a politician he'll get a nice index linked pension. Living the Socialist dream like Prescott no doubt.

Cheers,

Tim.

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[quote name=Xurbia' date='Jul 16 2006, 11:30 PM' post='413584]

I guess there had to at least one moron that still supports the government.

The really scary thing is that according to current polls up to 36% of the voters in this country still support NU Labour and think that Blair, Prescott, and our dear friend Gordy are doing a great job...................makes you think

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Amazing how Patprimer disapears into the sunset when the facts about Gordon Brown are shown to be true.

This person is so obviously a troll for New Labour. Just read some of his/her posts. Theycould almost be Alistair Campbell in disguise.

Gasket 37 set out the absolute facts in a clear and concise manner with regards to Brown's tax raid on pension funds. Come on Patprimer, lets hear your reply. Do you have one or for once will you stop the spin and bullshxt that you come out with?

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Amazing how Patprimer disapears into the sunset when the facts about Gordon Brown are shown to be true.

This person is so obviously a troll for New Labour. Just read some of his/her posts. Theycould almost be Alistair Campbell in disguise.

Gasket 37 set out the absolute facts in a clear and concise manner with regards to Brown's tax raid on pension funds. Come on Patprimer, lets hear your reply. Do you have one or for once will you stop the spin and bullshxt that you come out with?

Not quite disappear, Thunder, just been enjoying the sunshine. How about you?

It was good to see that the only person who made an attempt at explaining this matter confirmed, clearly, that there's no such thing as a 'Gordon Brown pension dividend tax'. So why people keep referring to it as such, I can't imagine.

This so-called 'raid' on the pension funds seems to me to be perfectly justified. Why should we who have the ability to put huge amounts of money into our pension funds - subsidised at the outset by other taxpayers to an enormous degree - have the added benefit of company dividends being paid tax free which other investors have no choice but to receive taxed? I can't justify going to other tax payers with my begging bowl so that I can add even more of their money to my tax-deferred pension fund. Can you?

As to the shortfall in pension funds. Has anyone noticed that there was a slight (!) dip in the stockmarket after 2000? What effect do people imagine there would be on funding when equities halve in value between 2000 and 2003 and have still not recovered? In fact I'm sure that someone on here could enlighten us as to the relatively small further rise in the stockmarket that would wipe out the shortfall completely. I believe that a return to the 31 Dec 1999 figures would just about do it - isn't that so? Alternatively, of course, we could just ask other people i.e. tax payers, to dip into their hard-earned cash and give it to us!

As far as I can see, the main reasons why people are likely to have insufficient income in retirement are:

1. They haven't set up pension arrangements at all or have done so very late into their working life. It takes large contributions paid over a very long term to build up an acceptable pension pot.

2. Equities, globally, have suffered the largest fall in value, probably ever. Result - smaller pot.

This isn't rocket science, it perfectly common sense.

Is it any wonder that idiots enter the BTL market and push up house prices when certain publications repeatedly slag off the pension industry? We know - don't we, HPC experts - that those who have put funds into the stock market over the last three years have done much better than those who've invested in BTL's. (I'm ignoring, for the purpose of this argument, the added stupidity of placing long term savings into one asset class.)

So, if you want the deleterious effect of BTL to be reversed, I would suggest that those who waste their breath repeatedly and wrongly blaming a 9 year old budget change stop doing so. Perhaps the poor sods who are daft enough to believe the nonsense will then stop over-paying for houses and let prices get back to reality.

p

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It was about 415 Tonnes or there abouts, and currently has cost the UK around £2.5Bil , I stand to be corrected on the exact amount.

D :)

I'm just doing the maths because £2.5Bil doesn't mean that much to me, (although the number sounds impressively large).

Amount wasted = £2.5Bil.

UK population = 60,441,457

Amount wasted per person = £41.36

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Patprimer,

As to the shortfall in pension funds. Has anyone noticed that there was a slight (!) dip in the stockmarket after 2000? What effect do people imagine there would be on funding when equities halve in value between 2000 and 2003 and have still not recovered?

One reason why they have "still not recovered" is that there is £40bn (or so) missing from the funds and many companies have had to chip in to plug deficits.

Still that is peanuts compared to what it has done to the pensions of current new employees - effectively they don't exist for many, theprevious plans have been closed. First generation that will have seriously lower pensions than their predecessors and yes most of it down to the thief that took the money.

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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