Hardly Any Of You Really Get It, Even Your Protesting On Hpc Is Contolled

[Marina]

Well that says it all, really. Thanks very much, grandad.

What do you mean by that?

Not constructive? Moi?

Touché

[JJJ]

Well, you said that you (and your peers) think it's a good idea that the next generation cannot afford houses.

[warwickbloke]

I don't think there is such a thing as a "set" price, property is now just another market and as such will have to suffer from market forces, also i was'nt implying large houses to be built rather whole new communities, yes it would be ridiculously expensive but i believe it's called investment? anything that increases supply of real homes and not just balconied pretencious over priced inner city flats would bring prices back into the real world.

This is happening anyway, to a certain degree, in our area no high rise construction going on but much protest from nimbys over green belt build which is being largely ignored.

Villages which were separated from town are fast becoming suburbs.

I guess it's the chicken/egg scenario;

build houses everywhere & wait till there are enough people to live in them,

or as we are now, wait till demand is there & rush through a few jerry builds.

[Marina]

Well, you said that you (and your peers) think it's a good idea that the next generation cannot afford houses.

Ahh .... I made a typing error. Surely if you read what I said you would have realised that there was a 'not' missing from my sentence.

I said ...

"You might not realise it - or even believe it - but I am not the only person of my generation who thinks that having the generation behind me being priced out of property ownership is a good idea. I have had lots of conversations over the last few years where people (not just me) say things like 'house prices are absolutely ridiculous, I don't know how young people are ever going to get started' etc.

I would have thought it was clear from the general tone of what I was saying that it should have read ...

"You might not realise it - or even believe it - but I am not the only person of my generation who thinks that having the generation behind me being priced out of property ownership is NOT a good idea. I have had lots of conversations over the last few years where people (not just me) say things like 'house prices are absolutely ridiculous, I don't know how young people are ever going to get started' etc.

Actually, when you come to think about it, I don't think you would be able to find anyone of my generation who thinks that your generation being priced out is a good idea. It is just 'something that has happened', 'house prices have gone mad' etc. Most people just feel good that their house has gone up in price without a thought about the social consequences. However, as I said in my post, a lot of people are aware of the social consequences but there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Which is why ... gets drum out again ... your generation needs to get angry about the injustice you are suffering and raise the issue to the top of the political and media agenda.

Nothing will change unless you do this.

If you don't - if you fall for the 'don't worry the market will correct itself' mantra of this site - well, don't say you weren't warned. When you're 50 and, for the 15th time in your life, you are being given notice to quit under a Shorthold Tenancy Agreement, don't say you weren't warned.

Edited July 6, 2006 by Marina

[JJJ]

So you say... unless it was a Freudian slip. Hand over the loot, pops.

[Marina]

So you say... unless it was a Freudian slip. Hand over the loot, pops.

I have 2512 posts on here that say it wasn't a Freudian slip.

I will be spending the loot before your generation gets its grubby hands on it. Now where's that boat magazine ...

[munimula]

I have 2512 posts on here that say it wasn't a Freudian slip.

I will be spending the loot before your generation gets its grubby hands on it. Now where's that boat magazine ...

Marina, I've just skimmed through some posts and just wanted to say that you would benefit massively from reading the Policy Exchange reports on housing (3 reports), particularly the 1st called 'Unaffordable Housing'

You can find them at www.policyexchange.org.uk and click on 'Housing'

The investigate the problems that cause UK housing to be such a high price.

Ultimately it does boil down to the restrictions on planning and building in this country.

The Planning law in 1949 was introduced to make sure enough housing of the type people wanted was built.

Instead it has come to represent the CPRE and constrain the building of any housing that isn't in towns or cities and isn't high density living i.e. flats. That's whay 50% of new builds are now flats (17% in 1996)

They are superb reports and very enlightening

Germany for example as almost the same population density as the UK and yet average new build property there is 110 sq metres compared to 76 sq metres in the UK. And house prices in Germany over the last 40 years have only gone up with inflation as one of the graph shows because they build the houses that people want and they build better and bigger houses.

Edited July 6, 2006 by munimula

[right_freds_dead]

count me in. im sick of posting here.

its limbo.

i need to move on. we need to fight for this,. we are getting walked all over + ID carded - they hope.

who are THEY ? this is OUR country too. and we demand housing. we want land. we want a ban on BTL lending. we want social housing estates built. we want to share the greenbelt too.

[munimula]

count me in. im sick of posting here.

its limbo.

i need to move on. we need to fight for this,. we are getting walked all over + ID carded - they hope.

who are THEY ? this is OUR country too. and we demand housing. we want land. we want a ban on BTL lending. we want social housing estates built. we want to share the greenbelt too.

The biggest problem is that current planning policy is to build on brown field sites and infill sites in towns and cities, to build high density flats. We've all seen it happening. Pretty much all the new building I see is flats.

People in towns and cities have lost half of their playing fields, are losing all their green spaces, more than 80% of us live in urban areas and yet on the edges of towns/cities the building stops. A few green fields are preserved for an absolute minority whilst the majority continue to live in less and less appealing urban environments

[Marina]

Marina, I've just skimmed through some posts and just wanted to say that you would benefit massively from reading the Policy Exchange reports on housing (3 reports), particularly the 1st called 'Unaffordable Housing'

You can find them at www.policyexchange.org.uk and click on 'Housing'

The investigate the problems that cause UK housing to be such a high price.

Ultimately it does boil down to the restrictions on planning and building in this country.

The Planning law in 1949 was introduced to make sure enough housing of the type people wanted was built.

Instead it has come to represent the CPRE and constrain the building of any housing that isn't in towns or cities and isn't high density living i.e. flats. That's whay 50% of new builds are now flats (17% in 1996)

They are superb reports and very enlightening

Germany for example as almost the same population density as the UK and yet average new build property there is 110 sq metres compared to 76 sq metres in the UK. And house prices in Germany over the last 40 years have only gone up with inflation as one of the graph shows because they build the houses that people want and they build better and bigger houses.

I can't find any way of writing this without it sounding snotty, but it's not meant to ... I have been painfully aware of planning issues all my adult life. I have dreamt all my adult life of buying an acre of grass and building my own home on it. I have the skills and ability to build - I even have the funds. I have never been able to lay my hands on a building plot that fits my requirements. I am very aware that the planning authorities are responsible for a lot of this mess ... BUT

As you point out the modern planning system has been around since 1949. But the problems your priced out generation face have only (really) manifested themselves in the last say 5 years or so - and manifested themselves at a time of a generally falling indigenous population. So, for my money, although you can blame the planning authorities for creating the general rise in property prices over the last 50 years, you can't blame them for the specific rises over the last 5 to 7 years that have priced you out.

To me the culprit is the explosion in BTL and the general change towards regarding ownership of property as an investment rather than as a home.

And it seems to me the most important thing is the fact that BTL ownership is a legitimate target. You could make a good case against it. You could get people on your side protesting about 'the middle classes now investing in BTL property in a way that has priced young people out of the housing market. The planning laws make sure that property is always in short supply and BTL investors have more funds than young people so they are buying up all the property and forcing up prices.'

Seems like a good idea to me.

[right_freds_dead]

The biggest problem is that current planning policy is to build on brown field sites and infill sites in towns and cities, to build high density flats. We've all seen it happening. Pretty much all the new building I see is flats.

just a minor change:

'The biggest problem is that current planning policy [geared towards pleasing current owners/voters]. We've all seen it happening. Pretty much all the new building I see is [vastly overpriced to support hpi] flats.'

[munimula]

I can't find any way of writing this without it sounding snotty, but it's not meant to ... I have been painfully aware of planning issues all my adult life. I have dreamt all my adult life of buying an acre of grass and building my own home on it. I have the skills and ability to build - I even have the funds. I have never been able to lay my hands on a building plot that fits my requirements. I am very aware that the planning authorities are responsible for a lot of this mess ... BUT

As you point out the modern planning system has been around since 1949. But the problems your priced out generation face have only (really) manifested themselves in the last say 5 years or so - and manifested themselves at a time of a generally falling indigenous population. So, for my money, although you can blame the planning authorities for creating the general rise in property prices over the last 50 years, you can't blame them for the specific rises over the last 5 to 7 years that have priced you out.

To me the culprit is the explosion in BTL and the general change towards regarding ownership of property as an investment rather than as a home.

And it seems to me the most important thing is the fact that BTL ownership is a legitimate target. You could make a good case against it. You could get people on your side protesting about 'the middle classes now investing in BTL property in a way that has priced young people out of the housing market. The planning laws make sure that property is always in short supply and BTL investors have more funds than young people so they are buying up all the property and forcing up prices.'

Seems like a good idea to me.

Again, I think you should read the report as it covers all areas that you discuss

And in conclusion the ups and downs of the UK property market are due to the planning and building restrictions.

Germany hasn't had the ups and downs for example.

At the moment we've had a massive increase in prices due to lots of factors, BTL, pension problems, 2nd home ownership but mainly due to cheap credit.

However all of these, whilst contributing to the problem, only become a problem when not enough housing is built and not enough housing of the type that people want. I don't see how you can argue this - if there was enough supply of housing then the price of housing wouldn't have gone up so much

Read the report, it's hard to disagree. A lot of work has gone into looking at the problem, a lot of indepth analysis.

[Marina]

However all of these, whilst contributing to the problem, only become a problem when not enough housing is built and not enough housing of the type that people want. I don't see how you can argue this - if there was enough supply of housing then the price of housing wouldn't have gone up so much

Read the report, it's hard to disagree. A lot of work has gone into looking at the problem, a lot of indepth analysis.

You misunderstand me. I am not disagreeing with what you are saying or what those reports are saying.

What I am saying is you have a snowball's in hells chance of getting the planning laws changed - so the target must be BTL.

If you tax second home ownership (now a Liberal policy I read in another thread - great, they get my vote) .... well it is just doable. Changing the planning laws just isn't going to happen.

[warwickbloke]

You misunderstand me. I am not disagreeing with what you are saying or what those reports are saying.

What I am saying is you have a snowball's in hells chance of getting the planning laws changed - so the target must be BTL.

If you tax second home ownership (now a Liberal policy I read in another thread - great, they get my vote) .... well it is just doable. Changing the planning laws just isn't going to happen.

And of the FTBs keeping the market high by accepting funding from wealthy/mewed family, how do you propose to legislate against those you seek to protect.

[munimula]

You misunderstand me. I am not disagreeing with what you are saying or what those reports are saying.

What I am saying is you have a snowball's in hells chance of getting the planning laws changed - so the target must be BTL.

I'm not so sure. There are various messages coming out from Tory and Labour now about changing the planning laws.

Cameron referred to the planning law as Banana - Building absolutely nothing absolutely near anywhere.

The UK has to be competitive in a global market.

For goodness sakes - China and India have just opened their borders to trade.

The UK will not survive if we don't sort out land prices and house prices.

All those young people today, unable to buy family homes but still spending 50% of income on debt servicing for a 1-bed flat won't have money to drive the economy of this country in the future if something isn't done about it.

And companies will not invest, a. because land costs to much to develop, b. because land isn't available to develop and c. because wages are too high because housing costs so much.

It can't go on and the big parties are waking up to this fact. Problem with Tories is that most of their votes come from the NIMBY generation.

[Marina]

I'm not so sure. There are various messages coming out from Tory and Labour now about changing the planning laws.

Cameron referred to the planning law as Banana - Building absolutely nothing absolutely near anywhere.

The UK has to be competitive in a global market.

For goodness sakes - China and India have just opened their borders to trade.

The UK will not survive if we don't sort out land prices and house prices.

All those young people today, unable to buy family homes but still spending 50% of income on debt servicing for a 1-bed flat won't have money to drive the economy of this country in the future if something isn't done about it.

And companies will not invest, a. because land costs to much to develop, b. because land isn't available to develop and c. because wages are too high because housing costs so much.

It can't go on and the big parties are waking up to this fact. Problem with Tories is that most of their votes come from the NIMBY generation.

Well let's hope if it is the Tories next time that Cameron has the sense to do something.

[munimula]

Well let's hope if it is the Tories next time that Cameron has the sense to do something.

I get the impression that the parties know that they have to do something. The Kate Barker report said as much about the problems from not building enough didn't it?

Cameron, for the Tories is stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one. The Tories know that future prosperity, business success is going to be affected if the planning laws are not changed but on the other hand most of the Tory voters are the NIMBY generation.

It's a fine line that the Tories will have to take on this one.

A bit easier for Labour as making houses cheaper by building more is probably better received by a more traditional labour voter.

[nodumsunreader]

Most of you people really do not get it, very few of you REALLY can see what has and is happening in the UK.

You are a Governments dream, you sit behind your pc's protesting to each other day in and day out, month after month, year after year, and most days even turning on each other, it is pathetic.

Again no, house prices SHOULD'NT be so expensive, we as a nation SHOULD'NT be taking on such huge amounts of debt, and property prices SHOULD'NT by every economic rule and commonsence be holding up, but they are.

There are a lot of things in life that SHOULD'NT happen(far worse than UK property prices), but they do, and the longer they continue the more excepted it becomes, starving children, slavery, mass murder, it is all happening today, people become so accustomed to the wrongs of the world that they will sit in front of the tv scratching their balls as they watch a child starve to death.

Tyrants, corrupt Governments, wrongs and injustice have been defeated in many cases, but not once did a wrong suddenly correct itself, it took a person or persons to stand up and FIGHT, can any of you imagine someone like Hitler suddenly deciding after 2 years of war announcing to the world "Do you know what, i think i got this wrong".

I will let you all into a secret, the UK is your Land as well, there is no rule that says that only the homeowners have the power and control, there is no rule that says that if 70% of the population want something(in this case HPI) that the rest MUST rollover and die, you really have to say to yourself i want i little bit of land, it is my right.

The great believers in market forces will say that the markets will correct soon, well i do not think they will, i honestly believe this Government keep most of us just short of land in order to control the property market, allways keeping demand greater than stock.

As is quite rigtly said, there is no point protesting for lower house prices, high HPI has now become a drug to many, but what you can start fighting for is MORE LAND.

Or, you can all continue logging on here for years on end, but here is a tip to how much you are achieving, if police are not knocking on your door, if riot police have no urge to batter you over the head with a big stick, if Tony Blair is not condemming you on TV, if helecopters are not flying overhead as you protest you are getting nowhere.

I have seen signs on HPC that enough is enough, in my eyes the likes of Marina have the right idea, there are with all the members on this board suely a few dozen that can begin what could be a REAL protest for a just cause.

Sam

Theyr'e all too busy watching big brother and getting smashed out of their heads at the weekend to protest.

[Als]

To me the culprit is the explosion in BTL and the general change towards regarding ownership of property as an investment rather than as a home.

I agree with this. And I would add that immigration in the sense of the sheer numbers of people entering the UK will have partly contributed. I am reluctant to advocate building all over the countryside even at the cost of not owning a house myself. Britain is an unpleasant enough place to live.

[munimula]

Theyr'e all too busy watching big brother and getting smashed out of their heads at the weekend to protest.

No, sadly they don't think they need to protest because prices only ever go up and when they do eventually buy they will benefit from the same rises in prices and be 'property' wealthy in the future like their parents and grandparents. Afterall as they are constantly told 'it was a struggle for us to buy our first home too, it always is a struggle to buy your first place'.

Therefore, sadly, ridiculous HPI in the UK is accepted.

I agree with this. And I would add that immigration in the sense of the sheer numbers of people entering the UK will have partly contributed. I am reluctant to advocate building all over the countryside even at the cost of not owning a house myself. Britain is an unpleasant enough place to live.

You really need to read this! You are showing a belief in one of the key myths debunked in this report, that the countryside can't afford to be built on. The consequences of saving a few green fields that very few people look out on is that all the remaining green spaces in towns and cities are being lost, playing fields built on etc. The majority live in the towns/cities and the majority are living in more and more unpleasant places because of this out of date planning law.

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/Publications.aspx?id=160

[nodumsunreader]

No, sadly they don't think they need to protest because prices only ever go up and when they do eventually buy they will benefit from the same rises in prices and be 'property' wealthy in the future like their parents and grandparents. Afterall as they are constantly told 'it was a struggle for us to buy our first home too, it always is a struggle to buy your first place'.

Therefore, sadly, ridiculous HPI in the UK is accepted.

Agree partially with your point however the apathy towards politics either in a direct form or indirectly through protest amongst young people in 2006 results in political indifference to them and their problems.

[Marina]

Agree partially with your point however the apathy towards politics either in a direct form or indirectly through protest amongst young people in 2006 results in political indifference to them and their problems.

Nail hit firmly on the head.

If the establishment does not know you are pissed off about things, they will ignore you.

[munimula]

Agree partially with your point however the apathy towards politics either in a direct form or indirectly through protest amongst young people in 2006 results in political indifference to them and their problems.

This is true but sometimes I think that we sit here on this website discussing stuff and expecting stuff to change too quickly.

The same young people that are too apathetic to vote today will become the middle aged people of tomorrow and if conditions haven't changed by then, if they are still stuck in 1 and 2-bed flats trying to bring up 2 kids - then their votes will start to count and their voices will start to be heard.

[Marina]

And of the FTBs keeping the market high by accepting funding from wealthy/mewed family, how do you propose to legislate against those you seek to protect.

Crumbs, you can't do everything in one go! If a FTB gets 50k off Mum and Dad and jumps on the carousel ... well they won't be affected by changes to the tax regime on BTL ownership.

And, if taxes on BTL ownership mean BTLs leave, or stop joining, the market - and prices go down - let's say 50k for easy numbers - well the FTB hasn't lost anything. Mum and Dad might be a bit miffed though. But, what can one say? 'Tough Sh*t' leaps to mind!

I'm not going to give my kids the money to join this farce and sell themselves into a lifetime of mortgage slavery. I'd rather see them on the streets first.

Edited July 6, 2006 by Marina

[munimula]

Agree partially with your point however the apathy towards politics either in a direct form or indirectly through protest amongst young people in 2006 results in political indifference to them and their problems.

The young apathetic people today will become the middle aged voters of the future.

If the problems aren't sorted out and in 10-15 yrs time they are still living in 1 and 2-bed flats trying to bring up 2 kids then their voices will be heard!

Crumbs, you can't do everything in one go! If a FTB gets 50k off Mum and Dad and jumps on the carousel ... well they won't be affected by changes to the tax regime on BTL ownership.

And, if taxes on BTL ownership mean BTLs leave, or stop joining, the market - and prices go down - let's say 50k for easy numbers - well the FTB hasn't lost anything. Mum and Dad might be a bit miffed though. But, what can one say? 'Tough Sh*t' leaps to mind!

I'm not going to give my kids the money to join this farce and sell themselves into a lifetime of mortgage slavery. I'd rather see them on the streets first.

Marina - I think that you need to let go of getting rid of BTLers.

I don't like the idea but they do offer housing for rent that a lot of us need. I need to rent because I can't settle down yet. Students need to rent whilst they are at university.

I agree with levelling the playing field, BTLers getting tax breaks and leveraging equity from existing houses makes it hard for FTBs to compete, some kind of taxation perhaps but lots of people need to be mobile. Buying and selling houses now is becoming prohibitive to mobility so there is an argument that more rental properties are required.