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Facts :

The income from party membership is not enough to fund the media machine for all main parties.

The poltical establishment - the main parties - would be bankrupt without selling out democracy to the highest bidder, and courting party funds from landowners and corporations, in return for massive policy changes to extend credit, and bring in a stealth policy of the most massive immigration in history.

You now have no real political choice.

Whoever you vote for - the above policies are the same, with the parties policies beholden to thier paymasters.

Only the personalities change.

We are in the midst of a new society.

A series of taxation breaks to the rich, and mass immigration are creating a class of bewildered working surfs who can never catch up, and multi millionare property owners.

The complacent have been waiting for a crash, only to find its been a crash in thier living standards that is underway.

This will worsen. A reality check ---->

In just 24 months - You will:

Attend an appointment to be photographed, have your fingerprints taken and iris scanned, or be fined up to £2,500. Additional fines of up to £2,500 may be levied each time you fail to comply until you submit to these procedures.

Promptly inform the police if you lose your card or it becomes defective, or you will have committed a criminal offence and face a fine and/or up to 51 weeks imprisonment.

Promptly inform the National Identity Register of any change of address or face a fine of up to £1,000(you will supply evidence of your previous addresses, not just your current address).

Promptly inform the National Identity Register of significant changes to your personal life of face a fine of £1,000. You may also be obliged to submit to being re-interviewed, re-photographed, re-fingerprinted and re-scanned, or face a fine.

Pay between £30 and £93 to be registered, with further charges possible to change your details.

When ID cards were introduced in this country during World War II, they had three functions. By the time they were abolished in 1952(against the will of the Government) they had 39 adminstrative uses. So what won't we be able to do without an ID card, according to Government plans? We'll be prevented from renting or selling a home or staying in a hotel. We won't be able to buy a car or a mobile phone; open or use a bank account; travel; register with a doctor, get education; work or run a business; (officially) live or (officially) die...

Political disruption is easy to cause - witness the anti-globalization rallies. The potential is out there to make the globalisation rally look like a fleabite.

You either fight for your freedoms when they are easy to win, now, or you succomb to a thousand years of darkness.

Its time to start poltical action for your say in the political economy as part of working, renting masses.

Edited by brainclamp

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Guest Alright Jack

Not sure why people get their nickers in to so much of a twist over ID cards, I really don't.

I am a law abiding chap, I have nothing to hide.

OK, so I pay for an ID card. And?

I think you will find its a little known fact that if you drive a car, by law you MUST carry an ID card.

So what an ID card, er I'll pay. Who else?

You are what I would describe as a ******* carpet.

What do you think this means for instance:-http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/moneybox/5136574.stm

??????

No doubt you see it as a happy way to cut some costs rather than the final nail in the coffin of liberty and privacy.

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Its time to start poltical action for your say in the political economy as part of working, renting masses.

It's past time. If the people want freedom they're going to have to fight for it.

t_sheeple_413.jpg

post-4316-1151777748.jpg

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Guest grumpy-old-man

Facts :

The income from party membership is not enough to fund the media machine for all main parties.

The poltical establishment - the main parties - would be bankrupt without selling out democracy to the highest bidder, and courting party funds from landowners and corporations, in return for massive policy changes to extend credit, and bring in a stealth policy of the most massive immigration in history.

You now have no real political choice.

Whoever you vote for - the above policies are the same, with the parties policies beholden to thier paymasters.

Only the personalities change.

We are in the midst of a new society.

A series of taxation breaks to the rich, and mass immigration are creating a class of bewildered working surfs who can never catch up, and multi millionare property owners.

The complacent have been waiting for a crash, only to find its been a crash in thier living standards that is underway.

This will worsen. A reality check ---->

In just 24 months - You will:

Attend an appointment to be photographed, have your fingerprints taken and iris scanned, or be fined up to £2,500. Additional fines of up to £2,500 may be levied each time you fail to comply until you submit to these procedures.

Promptly inform the police if you lose your card or it becomes defective, or you will have committed a criminal offence and face a fine and/or up to 51 weeks imprisonment.

Promptly inform the National Identity Register of any change of address or face a fine of up to £1,000(you will supply evidence of your previous addresses, not just your current address).

Promptly inform the National Identity Register of significant changes to your personal life of face a fine of £1,000. You may also be obliged to submit to being re-interviewed, re-photographed, re-fingerprinted and re-scanned, or face a fine.

Pay between £30 and £93 to be registered, with further charges possible to change your details.

When ID cards were introduced in this country during World War II, they had three functions. By the time they were abolished in 1952(against the will of the Government) they had 39 adminstrative uses. So what won't we be able to do without an ID card, according to Government plans? We'll be prevented from renting or selling a home or staying in a hotel. We won't be able to buy a car or a mobile phone; open or use a bank account; travel; register with a doctor, get education; work or run a business; (officially) live or (officially) die...

Political disruption is easy to cause - witness the anti-globalization rallies. The potential is out there to make the globalisation rally look like a fleabite.

You either fight for your freedoms when they are easy to win, now, or you succomb to a thousand years of darkness.

Its time to start poltical action for your say in the political economy as part of working, renting masses.

I'm afraid it's too late for this generation, they have been lured with the spoils of false wealth, happiness & a strange desire to "fit in" & all look the same, stepford-like, bourne from endless lies from government, brainwashing media reports & a strange acceptence of the inevitable sh1tty existence.......as long as their house is worth 10k more than next doors & their car is 2 years newer....happiness & contentment is found..........

I also do motivational speeches on request ;)

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Its time to start poltical action for your say in the political economy as part of working, renting masses.

The question is how do we start political action? I'd prefer to see a riot, or at least the refusal by millions to accept the ID card scheme. Problem is that if you dont accept the ID cards then you wont be able to leave the country which unfortunately might be the only way to escape them.

Edited by Sine270

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This reminds me of Minority Report.

Either way, I've renewed my passport. I have just over ten years of freedom left.

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Where are you going with this 'It's not you who decides'? [bulltraderpt]

I'm not going anywhere with it. The point is, we don't know where this or a future government may go with it.

When they filled in their census form in 1933, did German Jews think they had anything to hide?

Cases of governments abusing their power to discredit critics abound. Did those members of the Paddington Survivors Group whose criticisms precipitated Stephen Byers' resignation expect their private lifes to be investigated in an attempt to smear their integrity?

You claim that you are an innocent law-abiding citizen, but the National Identity Register with it's ID card turns that presumption of innocence on it's head -- you're no longer to be trusted to go about your lawful business without a licence to live and an legal requirement to inform the government of every significant life event. Even details of when and where we collect a parcel will be recorded.

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I have had an ID card for all my adult life (and a bit of my teens, I had to have one as I could not participate in some exams without one).

Where I come from they are mandatory and the only thing they do is exactly that: prove your identity.

The only problem is that without one you cannot do much. As most public services rely on you producing one, if you don't you are stuffed.

If you ask me, this whole thing is just another way of spending public sector money (check who is going to get the contract...) and ripping off the average Joe who is going to have to pay for the registration. Typical.

As has very wisely been said (I do not remember by who): The only thing free in the UK is the rain...

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When this treacherous scheme becomes law it just needs a few peiple to march into their local town halls and set fire to their ID cards with a litre of petrol in the foyer. If this practice spread the fascist knightmare would be quickly checked.

Let's get this straight - it isn't some flimsy cardboard passporty thing like you see in some continental countries. It's far, far worse.

There's no reason for a biometric database state designed solely to collect vast amounts of data about our habits and movements. There's no good reason for ID.

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Guest grumpy-old-man

When this treacherous scheme becomes law it just needs a few peiple to march into their local town halls and set fire to their ID cards with a litre of petrol in the foyer. If this practice spread the fascist knightmare would be quickly checked.

Let's get this straight - it isn't some flimsy cardboard passporty thing like you see in some continental countries. It's far, far worse.

There's no reason for a biometric database state designed solely to collect vast amounts of data about our habits and movements. There's no good reason for ID.

you can be "modified" on the fly, so to speak.........very, very scary technology.

if you don't fit in or you cause problems......they just log-in to your database & give you a criminal record for instance or make you a terrorist under surviellance etc

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With the government's track record for implementing IT systems, I can't see it happening in the next 10 years, it'll probably end up costing the public £100bn and some 12 year old cracker will render it useless from day one! The fact that the government is so imcompetent may be a good thing when it comes to ideas like this.

The police for example didn't even know that the brother of the guy they shot in the shoulder recently had actually applied to be a community support officer! Just shows the level of integrated data there is(n't).

Edited by Foobar

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some nationalist you are. You posted while the game was on.

shame on you. :ph34r:

The poster makes points that are probably as serious as it gets in terms of our losing our traditional freedoms - and you post that drivel.

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Not sure why people get their nickers in to so much of a twist over ID cards, I really don't.

I am a law abiding chap, I have nothing to hide.

OK, so I pay for an ID card. And?

I think you will find its a little known fact that if you drive a car, by law you MUST carry an ID card.

So what an ID card, er I'll pay. Who else?

I agree..

I know I'm in the minority as ID card's have been mentioned a few times before and I still stand by the fact that if you have "nothing to hide" then ID card's are of no harm to an innocent person.

I don't think we should be forced to pay for one though. Surely the money saved on benefit and tax cheat's would cover the cost of the card's...

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I agree..

I know I'm in the minority as ID card's have been mentioned a few times before and I still stand by the fact that if you have "nothing to hide" then ID card's are of no harm to an innocent person.

I don't think we should be forced to pay for one though. Surely the money saved on benefit and tax cheat's would cover the cost of the card's...

So you don't think the government would let commercial interests have access to your data? Say an insurance company?

Here's an interesting article for one who has such great trust in the government...

http://www.in2perspective.com/nr/2006/02/y...ay-be-sold-.jsp

Edited by Foobar

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So you don't think the government would let commercial interests have access to your data? Say an insurance company?

What if they do? Do you lie on your insurance forms?

If that's the case then you are driving my premiums up.

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What if they do? Do you lie on your insurance forms?

If that's the case then you are driving my premiums up.

Have you seen my edit with the link above?

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I have read the link.

I still think that you shouldn't really be telling porkies on mortgage or insurance forms.

Bring back the poll tax.. ;);)

Edited by BTman

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I have read the link.

I still think that you shouldn't really be telling porkies on mortgage or insurance forms.

Bring back the poll tax.. ;);)

but can't you see how that is just the tip of the ice-berg? This is headed toward a control state, we will be nothing more than numbers on a list, all real choices removed. The authorities will be able to steer your every day decisions without you even knowing it, just like supermarkets quite successfully do as soon as you walk through the front door. We won't even be able to buy a coffee with loose change anymore which will result in the government / middle company knowing exactly which flavour or even brand we like and when / how often we drink it!

No, this stinks, and our nation of sleep walkers are just going to wake up too late :(

BTW what ever happened to the internal Home Office investigation looking at the sale of N.I. numbers to criminal organisations?

Edited by ollk

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With the government's track record for implementing IT systems, I can't see it happening in the next 10 years, it'll probably end up costing the public £100bn and some 12 year old cracker will render it useless from day one! The fact that the government is so imcompetent may be a good thing when it comes to ideas like this.

The police for example didn't even know that the brother of the guy they shot in the shoulder recently had actually applied to be a community support officer! Just shows the level of integrated data there is(n't).

I guess there are points relating to ID in theory and ID in practice.

If it was a basic scheme to tie in your name, DOB, photo and biometric data (let's say DNA finger print for the sake of argument). I don't really have an issue with obtaining such a card. Although, I don't see the need for a physical card since all you would need is a DNA reader and the rest is pulled off the DB.

I do have an issue with the onerous responsibilities placed on your to update your details etc. etc. (although none of the details should change - I don't agree with having to report my location - can't they just track us using our mobile phones?) and criminal charges for failure to comply.

In practice, there is the issue of cost (let's multiply the governments estimate by 10 to 50 times for a realistic cost) and that all this data sits on a database somewhere which is open to attacks (both inside and outside).

I can see how a robust biometric identification could help reduce benefit fraud etc.

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Guest Alright Jack

So it seems that the total removal of cash is not a significant development as far as some are concerned.

In my opinion it is THE most dangerous development of our lifetimes. How can you protect yourself from a system in which you cannot take delivery of your own property?

Ask yourself a few of questions and the reasons for this 'fantastic labour saving cashless system' will become pretty clear! Allow your imagination to take you on a scary journey.

Q1 What is the one thing that the banking system is truly terrified of?

Q2 What happens when taxes border on slavery governments print a lot of money?

Seriously, some guys on here need to take their heads out of their backsides and think about all this for a moment or two.

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I know I'm in the minority as ID card's have been mentioned a few times before... [bTman]

That's probably because many people who post on here are more informed about the issue. In general, the more people find out about the governments plans, the more strongly they are likely to oppose them. Disturbingly, there are still many people who remain unaware of the National Identity Register.

...and I still stand by the fact that if you have "nothing to hide" then ID card's are of no harm to an innocent person. [bTman]

That's your opinion, not a fact. Are you saying that, for example, Jews in Vichy France had "nothing to hide", came to no harm, or were not innocent people?

Everyone has something to hide -- it's why we have secret ballots, sealed envelopes, confidential medical records, and why you are using a pseudonym to post in this forum.

I don't think we should be forced to pay for one though. [bTman]

Well, you are being forced to pay for one along with the National Identity Register. Either you pay directly, via a stealth tax on passports and other transactions, or through your general taxes. Most likely all three. If you don't pay for it, who will? The government has no money -- only that which it takes off today's taxpayers and borrows from future ones.

Surely the money saved on benefit and tax cheat's would cover the cost of the card's... [bTman]

I've not seen any figures for "tax cheats" who evade tax by misrepresenting who they are rather than how much they earn. Most tradesmen who do jobs for 'cash and no bill' seem to have their name on the side of their van -- so ID cards would be of no help there. Can you think of any circumstance where they might be? Do countries that have compulsory ID cards have lower tax evasion? What about Italy, for example? The UK is notable for having a relatively small informal economy.

As with tax evasion, almost all benefit fraud is due to people misrepresenting their circumstances and not who they are. Current estimates of the latter are only £35 to £50 million a year. Independent estimates for the cost of the proposed ID cards and National Identity Database are £10.6 to £19.2 billion* -- well over 200 times more. For a tiny fraction of that cost the government could issue PIN numbers or passwords to enable us to authenticate our National Insurance numbers when claiming benefits (or starting a new job).

'Identity Crisis: The case against ID cards by Peter Lilley MP':

http://www.bowgroup.org/pub/IDCards.pdf

Benefit Fraud

There is a common assumption that much benefit fraud relies on claiming under false identities. I probably shared that view when I started a drive against fraud as Secretary of State for Social Security. In fact we found the overwhelming majority of fraud involves misrepresenting circumstances -- for example, claiming out-of-work benefits when working. The Government now estimates that total benefit fraud involving false identities is between £20-50 million a year which is about 2% of total benefit fraud.

The main focus should be on stopping the other 98%. But even to deal with the 2% of cases which are based on identity fraud does not require an identity card. Tightening up on the use and issue of National Insurance Numbers will help.

Unfortunately a significant element of identity fraud involves accomplices inside the DWP who would also be able to circumvent an ID card.

Also see 'UK ID scheme rides again, as biggest ID fraud of them all':

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/25/id..._mk2_fraud_con/

Department of Work & Pensions Regular readers will know the DWP has a new wild guess for this one, an impressive £50 million. In the 2002 study the ID fraud component of welfare fraud of "£2-5 billion" (a pretty tight estimate, that) was around one per cent, i.e. £35 million.

* This does not include external costs such as the expense of attending to be fingerprinted (for a professional, such as a rural doctor, it could cost several hundred pounds to take the time off work).

I can see how a robust biometric identification could help reduce benefit fraud etc. [Charles_Darke]

But, can you see how it could be cost effective? The hardware installation and support costs alone are likely to dwarf any possible savings. There are much cheaper ways of tightening up on benefit claims.

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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