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As a life - long conservative I am shocked to find myself shunning all things American.

Why am I doing this?

Because Im appauled by the evil Christian neo - cons 'chosen race' arrogant attitude to other cultures and the enviroment.

The Devil incarnate Anne Coulter speaks for these fanatical neo - cons and is the biggest selling author in the US, which tells me a lot of Americans are elitest and have no empathy for the rest of us.

They think it thier God given right to throw thier weight around and use up finite resources whilst relying on the rest of us to puchase thier stuff, which lets face it is based on junk culture. Thier once great film industry is now just a sausage factory turning out the same tired old cliche 'were the good ole boys here to save youall' junk.

Thier soldiers have'nt changed a bit since Vietnam. Still disrespecting Human life on a wholesale scale. Still seeing themselves as John Wayne 'goodies' when in actual fact the Indians were the true goodies.

I for one am consciously avoiding American products and I know a couple of others doing the same.

Is this a sea change or just a blip?

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Are you avoiding Chinese products too? Chinese dictatorship, slave labour, mass poverty, oppress their own people, torture and executions, occupy other countries against their will, have nukes, etc. I'd rather buy American.

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To paraphrase someone (don't recall who) on Question Time - "we're not anti-American, we're anti-Bush"

Bush has done so much damage to that Country's reputation in such a short space of time it's quite incredible.

I thought the UK used to in some ways 'look up' to the US. Now, we (not just the public, but our politicians as well in public) just openly laugh at them.

We have our servers (web hosting) in America, simply because it's too expensive to have them in the UK. Far, far too expensive. I have however looked at the possibility of moving them to Amsterdam.

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Actually you spell like an american. You keep spelling "thier"

As a life - long conservative I am shocked to find myself shunning all things American.

Why am I doing this?

Because Im appauled by the evil Christian neo - cons 'chosen race' arrogant attitude to other cultures and the enviroment.

The Devil incarnate Anne Coulter speaks for these fanatical neo - cons and is the biggest selling author in the US, which tells me a lot of Americans are elitest and have no empathy for the rest of us.

They think it thier God given right to throw thier weight around and use up finite resources whilst relying on the rest of us to puchase thier stuff, which lets face it is based on junk culture. Thier once great film industry is now just a sausage factory turning out the same tired old cliche 'were the good ole boys here to save youall' junk.

Thier soldiers have'nt changed a bit since Vietnam. Still disrespecting Human life on a wholesale scale. Still seeing themselves as John Wayne 'goodies' when in actual fact the Indians were the true goodies.

I for one am consciously avoiding American products and I know a couple of others doing the same.

Is this a sea change or just a blip?

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Don't confuse the actions of a President with an entire nation of people whose views and beliefs are as varied as you will find in the UK.

Here, here.

However, we should take seriously what dogb has said. He is as close to a moderate as anyone on here. You have to ask why he should feel this way. My father recently told me what he'd like to do with Bush, something I refrain from repeating lest it result in his door being kicked in in th eearly hours. It is clear to me that neither my Father nor dogb stand a chance of ever carrying out their empty threats : they are both too moderate / forgiving / have too much to lose, but the fact is there ARE zealots and extremists and desperate people out there. You've really got to wonder what they are thinking, planning ... and intent on doing ... their feelings cannot be legislated against nor their anger more and more tightly contained. The US must change... and by that I mean "their President".

As for asking why criticise the US and not China? How many times have you felt embarassed by the behaviour of a stranger? Now what if you girlfriend did a stip-tease on a table-top down your local ... basically the US are "letting the side down". That hurts.

Edited by Sledgehead

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Here, here.

However, we should take seriously what dogb has said. He is as close to a moderate as anyone on here. You have to ask why he should feel this way. My father recently told me what he'd like to do with Bush, something I refrain from repeating lest it result in his door being kicked in in th eearly hours. It is clear to me that neither my Father nor dogb stand a chance of ever carrying out their empty threats : they are both too moderate / forgiving / have too much to lose, but the fact is there ARE zealots and extremists and desperate people out there. You've really got to wonder what they are thinking, planning ... and intent on doing ... their feelings cannot be legislated against nor their anger more and more tightly contained.

You mean t@rrorsts?

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You mean t@rrorsts?

Not really. A t@rrorist nowadays is usually a dead feller. I'm more interested in and concerned by what they were thinking before they became that.

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It is clear to me that neither my Father nor dogb stand a chance of ever carrying out their empty threats

Im not drinking / eating yank products anymore B)

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so you won't be using internet explorer or firefox etc then?

LOL, on your PC running Windows with an Intel chipset (that is probably made by Dell or HP.....................)

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LOL, on your PC running Windows with an Intel chipset

Made in Asia.

(that is probably made by Dell or HP.....................)

Made in... is it still Ireland these days?

Certainly you can't survive today without buying products from American companies, but there aren't that many which are actually made in America, and the profits probably get shipped to some offshore tax haven.

Edited by MarkG

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Big companies don't really have a nationality any more IMO.

Take Toyota for example. They have factories in the US, many customers in the US and many shareholders in the US (they are listed on the NYSE as well as the Nikkei). They have to pay taxes in the US, wherever the head office is, just like any other company.

In what sense are you punishing or rewarding the government of Japan by boycotting or buying Toyota? Not much really. Same goes for many US companies.

frugalista

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Don't get invaded by a foreign enemy either.

Not such a good thing that neo-Fascist Roosevelt and his band of Democratic supremecists decided to take down the united Euro minded Adolf and his Aryan friends. And what a terrible thing to tell Uncle Joe Stalin to get oujt of Eastern Europe as if he didn't have every right to occupy all those countries until Reagan plotted to take down the Berlin Wall in 1989. That wall was never intended to keep the good people in it was just there to keep the evil Americans out. No, Joe Stalin was entitled. After all, he lost a lot of men conquering, er liberating them, didn't he? Don't forget that earlier "Attila," Woody Wilson and his band of supremecist doughboys who invaded Europe as an excuse to defeat Victoria's eccentric Nephew with the spiky helmet. We would never have interferred in another nation's problems and all that stuff about us helping the Confederacy during the American Civil War because we wanted cheap cotton from the slave farms is just another early Bush conspiracy. And another thing, the slave owners weren't really all 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation English and Irish landowners, they were Americans descended from the Indians, nothing to do with us.

The real devils are the oil companies and their exploitation of the Arab people. Look how poor the Arabs are and how rich the bosses of BP and Shell are! The Arabs all live in mud huts and ride on donkeys and you never see one in a decent motor because they are not materialistic like the Americans. No wonder they want a Jihad and to kill the infidel who has walked on their land and taken their oil from them and have got nothing in return. Its the same disgusting behaviour that we manifested in the 19th Century when we went to India and Ceylon, as it was once known, and started removing tons of tea depriving millions of their favourite drink.

BP, Shell, Total-Fina-Elf and Exxon-Mobil are just the front for George Bush and his Texas oil millionaires who own these companies and they just want Arab oil to turn into fuel for American cars. And who is buying all those SUVs that burn excess oil? You wouldn't see one in China or anywhere in Europe and escpecially not around Chelsea.

Lets see if an American boycott will work. GM and Ford should close the rest of their factories down in the UK and stop exploiting all those workers by paying them wages in return for building more petrol consuming vehicles. Away with American made planes so we can buy the new Airbus that employs European workers. Down with Microsoft we can all switch to Linux, er how about Mac, er, well we can come up with our own software. Come to think of it, Bill is okay as he gives a lot of money to poor kids through his Trust.

And if, in the very unliklely event, we get pushed around by that nice Mr. Putin and his growing monopoly of Russian fuels we can always turn to the, er, how about the er, I know the Chinese! After all we have been buying all their goods for years so they owe us big time.

Finally 9/11 and the tube bombings on 7/7 were just a facist plot to frame deeply religious Arabs as an excuse for Shell, BP, Elf and Exxon to buy more oil from Iraq and to remove a legitimate dictator, er president, who wanted nothing more than to keep himself to himself and to recognise his neighbour's right to exist. Saddam was only kidding when he said he would build ICBM and use gas on the Shi-ites in Iran. Saddam's Kuwait invasion was just a Bush plot to, er, well who knows but it was America's fault. And all those mass graves of gassed people--just a fabrication like the pictures from Auschwitz, Dachau, Belsen after WW2. I wouldn't be surprised if they were all part of a Bush plot also, the grandfather at least who must have been rich too?

<_<

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Nice try realistbear, but anyone who writes

"Im appauled by the evil Christian neo - cons 'chosen race' arrogant attitude to other cultures and the enviroment."

and apparently means it, is impervious to argument. In fact is a prime example of the kind of thinking excoriated in Coulter's excellent book "Godless".

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There are many intelligent and wise Americans. Unfortunately there are many many many many ignorant Americans who can easily be whipped into a frenzy by such demagogues as Ann Coulter and her ilk (I include so-called leftwing types such as Al Franken).

It is hard for us in Europe to understand this phenomenon.

My theory is as follows.

American politics is (and I think has always been) extremely tribal. So, Coulter for example can refer to "liberals" and people in the US just accept that there is this tribe of people called liberals who are all atheist homosexual pro-choice PC eco-nutters. Similarly Al Franken can talk about "conservatives" who are fundamentalist Christian racist Bush-supporting SUV drivers. There is an unwillingness to accept that people can be multifaceted.

The other thing in America is that there is a kind of "ends justifies the means" approach to debate. Therefore you can break any debating rule as long as you win.

So, books by Coulter and Franken are almost completely ad hominem arguments, which continuously examine over and over who said what about who. They don't even bother to justify political arguments. What's the point, you have chosen to be a "liberal" or a "conservative" (like choosing a brand of soap powder) and you have signed up to everything entailed by that. Like buying soap powder you can't change the product ingredients.

This avoidance of the argument of course perpetuates political ignorance. "Politics" in the US seems to be more about political expedience than actual policy and political philosophy.

frugalista

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Not such a good thing that neo-Fascist Roosevelt and his band of Democratic supremecists decided to take down the united Euro minded Adolf and his Aryan friends.

They didn't. The Russians did.

In any case, without American intervention in WWI, that war would have ended by 1917 with a negotiated cease-fire, Germany wouldn't have been economically devastated and Hitler would never have arisen. Nor, probably, would the commies have taken control of Russia.

And what a terrible thing to tell Uncle Joe Stalin to get oujt of Eastern Europe as if he didn't have every right to occupy all those countries until Reagan plotted to take down the Berlin Wall in 1989.

Again, I hate to break your illusions, but Churchill and Truman _gave_ those countries to Stalin in the first place, after supporting the commies in the war so that they'd do most of the work in destroying the Nazi army.

American intervention has been a disaster pretty much everywhere it's been tried: it's no surprise that the founders of the country argued so strongly against it.

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The concept of not buying American products is not new.

Muslim nations have been pushing their own brands equivalent to the US brands for example Zamzam-Cola for some time now.

Eventually these people will give up blowing people up and flying planes into buildings and then really hurt the people of the West, where it hurts, by boycotting our goods.

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Nice try realistbear, but anyone who writes

"Im appauled by the evil Christian neo - cons 'chosen race' arrogant attitude to other cultures and the enviroment."

and apparently means it, is impervious to argument. In fact is a prime example of the kind of thinking excoriated in Coulter's excellent book "Godless".

I have not read Coulter's book but will try to get hold of a copy. If its on the NYT best seller list it is getting a wide readership.

The bottom line is that when you are a superpower and protect your interests those who are not superpowers are going to find something to moan about. It was easier when the Soviet Union was around because most nations recognised the threat and chose sides accordingly. With Putin resurrecting the old Soviet Union maybe we will get back to the good old days?

"Christian" has become a label to describe the neo-Crusaders. It goes like this: Call yourself a Christian and do what you want and justify it by finding a passage in the Bible to back you up. Most often it will be something from the apocalyptic texts that are forced into a modern day context which God has somehow authorised. The same thing applies to Bin-Laden and Al Qaeda. IN the name of Allah lets train up suicide bombers and blow up the Shi-ites in their mosques and the Brits in their tube stations. Convenient excuse very often.

The important thing to do, IMO, is to separate the deeds from the faith. Jesus had this problem and ended up on a cross because of it. People don't like to be exposed in their hypocrisy, espcially if they have been justifying themsleves by a code of religion that, in reality, abhors what they have been doing. The teaching that "Blessed are the peacemakers" does not go down well among the war mongers who prefer to go back to the Old Ttestament to find a passage where one tribe killed another because someone stole someone elses wide. Because someone did that does not justify it. Slaves are mentioned in the ancient texts of most nations but that is not a justification for the practise. You don't find Italians owning slaves these days simply because Augustus had a house full of them. So why should anyone try to justify killing simply because an ancient Pharoah practised infanticide.

I am not as familiar with the Muslim teachings but am aware that their Koran says its okay to wage Jihad against the infidel. It would benefit us all to have some knowledge about the world religions by actually styudying them before commenting in depth as most people today are driven by what has been taught over the centuries. We are culture driven and it often defines how we react to others--good or bad. The sad thing is that the message has so often been garbled to jujstify a course of action that the relgious codes specifically condemn.

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They didn't. The Russians did.

In any case, without American intervention in WWI, that war would have ended by 1917 with a negotiated cease-fire, Germany wouldn't have been economically devastated and Hitler would never have arisen. Nor, probably, would the commies have taken control of Russia.

Again, I hate to break your illusions, but Churchill and Truman _gave_ those countries to Stalin in the first place, after supporting the commies in the war so that they'd do most of the work in destroying the Nazi army.

American intervention has been a disaster pretty much everywhere it's been tried: it's no surprise that the founders of the country argued so strongly against it.

That's one interpretation I suppose.

Churchilll, Roosevelt and Stalin decided on a plan to divide the world between them. The problem was Europe and the US were war weary and despite Patton's pressure decided to accept the de facto occupation of Eastern Euorpe by Stalin. Western Europe remained free despite troop deployments in Germany up to the present day. The Russians lost a lot of men in WW2 and many were killed by their own leaders. If you look at the chart below you see the extraordinary number of Russian dead and the comparitively small numbers of Germans whose losses were stretched over several fronts. Although Russians were used as cannon fodder it does not account for ordinary war losses apart from some home grown massacres.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/thursday.handlei.../war-losses.htm

The Top Ten Chart: Countries Suffering The Greatest Military Losses In WW2

USSR 13.6m

Germany 3.3m

China 1.32m

Japan 1.14m

British Empire

(UK=264,000) 357k

Romania 350k

Poland 320k

Yugoslavia 305k

United States 292k

Italy 279k

The Versailles Treaty is often blamed for planting the seeds of WW2. Had Germany been rewarded instead of punished for invading France in 1914 it may have robbed Hitler of one excuse to remove impure races from Europe and make Germany the uber-power in the world. But Vienna was not in the mood to reward Germany for the death of an entire generation of young men but rather to punish them in the hope there would be peace in our time. Hitler would have found some other excuse to raise up an army if he didn't have The Congress of Vienna to blame. In fact, he blamed the Jews and other "inferior subhumans" for Germany's troubles.

Had the US watched WW2 from afar then, no doubt, Europe would have been united a lot sooner than it has been under the EC. Hitler would not have had to contend with 2 fronts and could have taken the Russians out with Nukes that Von Braun was devoloping and which he finally developed in time for the Japanese. As for the UK. I think we might have come to an arrangement with Germany through the Hess visit which would have granted the UK vassal status in retun for a hands off on Europe and the ethnic cleansing that was going on there. As you know, there were some influential Brits who wanted this to happen. Even a few Americans, Joseph Kennedy chief among them.

As it turned out, The US were bombed by Japan and since Japan and Germany were developing a co-operation of convenience Roosevelt's hand was forced. I suppose its a matter of opinion as to whether US involvement in Europe was good or bad. Depends who you ask I suppose. IF you tend toward fascism you might argue that a strong central government run by Nazis would be a good thing. On the other hand, if you prefer the liberal traditon with democracy and all of that then WW2 was unavoidable.

Edited by Realistbear

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The Vienna Treaty is often blamed for planting the seeds of WW2. Had Germany been rewarded instead of punished for invading France in 1914 punished it may have robbed Hitler of one excuse to remove impure races from Europe and make Germany the uber-power in the world. But Vienna was not in the mood to reward Germany for the death of an entire generation of young men but rather to punish them in the hope there would be peace in our time. Hitler would have found some other excuse to raise up an army if he didn't have The Congress of Vienna to blame. In fact, he blamed the Jews and other "inferior subhumans" for Germany's troubles.

The Congress of Vienna was in 1814. I think it's the Treaty of Versailles that you're thinking of.

frugalista

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • Even
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      • up 5%



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