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thefruits

When Renting Really Pays Off

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I'm a STR and dont owe anyone a jot. Manage to enjoy good food, good holidays and the equity that I was left with gives a great sense of security for me and my family. I used to have a £300k mortgage but now rent a house valued at £600k for significantly less than the equivalent interest only mortgage (well the mortgage that i would need). I fully intend to continue renting for many years.. we plan to move into a bigger house (with a pool) when the kids are older (both less than 5). Sure we get loads of raised eyebrows from those who don't understand why we don't buy. Its not a question to me of being able to afford it.. sure I could.. but do I want to .. no.

I think if people actually started to learn about the true cost of owning a house vs. renting they would try to rent more. Even in a flat house price market I think its more financially astute to do so, especially when you take into account the cost of buying a house, the cost of renovating a house (when was the last time someone kept everything exactly the same as the last owner), the cost (time) of diy etc - its great not having to go to b&q at the weekends, the cost to put decking down (or rip it up if it takes your fancy)... the cost to sell the house and start again.

One thing that really strikes me is that when we buy things for the house, they are things we will take with us. We've purchased some nice paintings, some quality (not IKEA) furniture, and quality appliances.. all things we can take with us to the next house.

I appreciate that he's not everyone's cup of tea but Robert T Kiwosaki (or something like that) does have 2 very important lessons for us all

1) your home is not an asset - unless it provides any form of passive income it is simply a liability even when you 'own' it... Very Very True

2) when you earn more money.. most people end up trading up... bigger house... bigger mortgage etc....

This is not a brag... just that I really don't understand why people in a similar situation don't sit down and do the math. Its about choice, its about freedom, its about not waking up and worrying about the bills. I honestly think renting is very under-appreciated. And long may it continue !!

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I'm a STR and dont owe anyone a jot. Manage to enjoy good food, good holidays and the equity that I was left with gives a great sense of security for me and my family. I used to have a £300k mortgage but now rent a house valued at £600k for significantly less than the equivalent interest only mortgage (well the mortgage that i would need). I fully intend to continue renting for many years.. we plan to move into a bigger house (with a pool) when the kids are older (both less than 5). Sure we get loads of raised eyebrows from those who don't understand why we don't buy. Its not a question to me of being able to afford it.. sure I could.. but do I want to .. no.

I think if people actually started to learn about the true cost of owning a house vs. renting they would try to rent more. Even in a flat house price market I think its more financially astute to do so, especially when you take into account the cost of buying a house, the cost of renovating a house (when was the last time someone kept everything exactly the same as the last owner), the cost (time) of diy etc - its great not having to go to b&q at the weekends, the cost to put decking down (or rip it up if it takes your fancy)... the cost to sell the house and start again.

One thing that really strikes me is that when we buy things for the house, they are things we will take with us. We've purchased some nice paintings, some quality (not IKEA) furniture, and quality appliances.. all things we can take with us to the next house.

I appreciate that he's not everyone's cup of tea but Robert T Kiwosaki (or something like that) does have 2 very important lessons for us all

1) your home is not an asset - unless it provides any form of passive income it is simply a liability even when you 'own' it... Very Very True

2) when you earn more money.. most people end up trading up... bigger house... bigger mortgage etc....

This is not a brag... just that I really don't understand why people in a similar situation don't sit down and do the math. Its about choice, its about freedom, its about not waking up and worrying about the bills. I honestly think renting is very under-appreciated. And long may it continue !!

Amen to that.

I STR'd in 2004 and have been renting ever since. I find it extremely liberating and it confers enormous flexibility, free of risk. I have substantial equity working for me in good investments and I the rent I pay is far less than the cost of owning an equivalent property.

I am amazed that more people do not choose this route; but then we have a perverse mono-vision in this country about the 'need' to own.

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Haha you are all losers :P

But not as much as me, I went to live with my parents, at my age :rolleyes:

Prices have been flat as a pancake for 2 years here, except low end flats have gained a bit but I am not looking at them anyway.

Do I mind the torment of my 'betters' with mortgages they can't afford? Their credit cards are the ones heaving with the latest must have purchase they don't need!

B)

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I am amazed that more people do not choose this route; but then we have a perverse mono-vision in this country about the 'need' to own.

You forgot to put the quotes around the word "own".

:lol:

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Although I own, I do not encourage my kids to purchase at this point in time, renting at the right price gives you freedom and security. Save and wait and all will come to light.

Save when inflation low, borrow to buy when inflation high. ;)

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I'm a STR and dont owe anyone a jot. Manage to enjoy good food, good holidays and the equity that I was left with gives a great sense of security for me and my family. I used to have a £300k mortgage but now rent a house valued at £600k for significantly less than the equivalent interest only mortgage (well the mortgage that i would need). I fully intend to continue renting for many years.. we plan to move into a bigger house (with a pool) when the kids are older (both less than 5). Sure we get loads of raised eyebrows from those who don't understand why we don't buy. Its not a question to me of being able to afford it.. sure I could.. but do I want to .. no.

I think if people actually started to learn about the true cost of owning a house vs. renting they would try to rent more. Even in a flat house price market I think its more financially astute to do so, especially when you take into account the cost of buying a house, the cost of renovating a house (when was the last time someone kept everything exactly the same as the last owner), the cost (time) of diy etc - its great not having to go to b&q at the weekends, the cost to put decking down (or rip it up if it takes your fancy)... the cost to sell the house and start again.

One thing that really strikes me is that when we buy things for the house, they are things we will take with us. We've purchased some nice paintings, some quality (not IKEA) furniture, and quality appliances.. all things we can take with us to the next house.

I appreciate that he's not everyone's cup of tea but Robert T Kiwosaki (or something like that) does have 2 very important lessons for us all

1) your home is not an asset - unless it provides any form of passive income it is simply a liability even when you 'own' it... Very Very True

2) when you earn more money.. most people end up trading up... bigger house... bigger mortgage etc....

This is not a brag... just that I really don't understand why people in a similar situation don't sit down and do the math. Its about choice, its about freedom, its about not waking up and worrying about the bills. I honestly think renting is very under-appreciated. And long may it continue !!

You still have to worry about bills if you rent. (BTW when you rent the bills tend to get BIGGER as the years go by)

1) your home is not an asset - unless it provides any form of passive income it is simply a liability even when you 'own' it... Very Very True

But compare this to the constant need to pay rent each year. Most renters today dish out 5% of the price of the house EVERY year. This goes up with inflation. After 5 years you have pissed a QUARTER of the purchase cost away in rent!

I'm a STR and dont owe anyone a jot.

Apart from your landlord. you have give him a big wad of cash each month or he throws you out...

Edited by Without_a_Paddle

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I appreciate that he's not everyone's cup of tea but Robert T Kiwosaki (or something like that) does have 2 very important lessons for us all

I've read a few of Kiyosaki's book's and I think you'll find TTRTR is a bit of a fan.

Kiyosaki, the man advising everyone and his dog over the past few years to get into property.

Recently he's been investing in precious metals and developing a gold mine in China.

And as for his views on property...

http://www.richdad.com/pages/article_dollar_crisis.asp

So the answer to the question, "Will the real estate bubble bust?" is an emphatic, "Yes. All bubbles bust." The reason I write this alert is because this time, when the bubble bursts, I think it will be a monster. Never in my life have I seen so much money being made on such weak fundamentals. If you think the last recession caused by the bubble bust was bad, the coming recession will be at least twice as bad. It might lead to a depression.

Someone who knows which side his bread is buttered.

Gold anyone?

Edited by BandWagon

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For as little as $20 you can buy a few precious metal coins and begin to take steps to prepare for one of the biggest crashes in world history.

Hang on...

S'Ok. Pants changed.

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Hang on...

S'Ok. Pants changed.

And that's from one of the biggest property bulls in the last 10 years.

He knows the game is up, and he's changed his plan.

That's just smart.

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I've read a few of Kiyosaki's book's and I think you'll find TTRTR is a bit of a fan.

Kiyosaki, the man advising everyone and his dog over the past few years to get into property.

Recently he's been investing in precious metals and developing a gold mine in China.

And as for his views on property...

http://www.richdad.com/pages/article_dollar_crisis.asp

Someone who knows which side his bread is buttered.

Gold anyone?

I do believe he wrote rich dad poor dad (not bad) and the cashflow quadrant (boring pile of sh*te). He makes a lot of sense in rdpd plus its an interesting way of delivering the content, he made his money in property but admits that there is a time and place for every investment and greater rewards can be found in

other things other than property at this point in time.

Because you will know that the dollar is falling because the price of gold and especially silver will begin to rise. When silver goes higher than $8.50 an ounce and gold reaches $500 an ounce, you will know the end is near. When the crash comes, the currency of many countries will go down in purchasing power as the price of these two precious metals rise in value.
Edited by theChuz

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But compare this to the constant need to pay rent each year. Most renters today dish out 5% of the price of the house EVERY year. This goes up with inflation. After 5 years you have pissed a QUARTER of the purchase cost away in rent!

Not so.

We all pay 'rent' for the whole of our life whether we are tenants or an OO living in a mortgage-free house. In the latter case the owner pays 'rent' because he must defer the investment returns he might have earned elsewhere with the wealth locked up in his non-productive property; there is no such thing as a free house.

It is called 'opportunity cost' a concept which is completely lost on the financially unsophisticated.

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You still have to worry about bills if you rent. (BTW when you rent the bills tend to get BIGGER as the years go by)

But compare this to the constant need to pay rent each year. Most renters today dish out 5% of the price of the house EVERY year. This goes up with inflation. After 5 years you have pissed a QUARTER of the purchase cost away in rent!

Apart from your landlord. you have give him a big wad of cash each month or he throws you out...

You still have to worry about bills if you rent. (BTW when you rent the bills tend to get BIGGER as the years go by)

What if you 'buy to own' then ? Do these bills go DOWN ??????.......... DUH, Dont think so...

But compare this to the constant need to pay rent each year. Most renters today dish out 5% of the price of the house EVERY year. This goes up with inflation. After 5 years you have pissed a QUARTER of the purchase cost away in rent!

Most renters ???? At todays prices ???? I think your calculator has been shonked dry and has given up with your argument..........

Goes up with inflation ?........ It might not though...... So what anyway, no interest rates to worry about.......

After five years you might have pissed your hard earned deposit away in house price deflation anyway....... And how much interest have you payed Mr TS&B on your £150000 ex council starter hovel in shittysville on a maxed out mortgage just to get on the ladder in the first five years......

I will ask you again WAP........ WHY are you bothering to post on here, if you are so intelligent you should be out there making millions in the property market with all your BTLs.... After all, us STRs are fool enough to pay your wages.....

Perhaps nobody wants to talk to you though, i think that may be the problem.....

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But compare this to the constant need to pay rent each year. Most renters today dish out 5% of the price of the house EVERY year.

5%?

I don't think so; yields on the better rental properties are well under this figure. I rent a 5 bed house on which the landlord's yield is 2.9%. A friend of mine who has just STR'd rents a 7 bed house where the yield is barely 2.5%.

Why on earth would we want to tie up (and risk) £600-750K of our own money in these houses when we can rent them so inexpensively leaving us free to invest our equity more sensibly?

Edited by Red Baron

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5%?

I don't think so; yields on the better rental properties are well under this figure. I rent a 5 bed house on which the landlord's yield is 2.9%. A friend of mine who has just STR'd rents a 7 bed house where the yield is barely 2.5%.

Why on earth would we want to tie up (and risk) £600-750K of our own money in these houses when we can rent them so inexpensively leaving us free to invest our equity more sensibly?

Absolutely spot on. My calcs work on the basis of being able to afford to rent a house for £600-£700 per month lower than the interest only mortgage that I would require for this very house. My landlord obviously has far more equity than I have and hence I'm very happy to use his leverage to be able to enjoy a quality of life that I couldn't afford otherwise. Note I say quality of life, eg all the fancy bits as well. Sure I could afford the mortgage on the house but my family and I would have to cut back on the nicer things in life (as in full time nursery for the 2 kids, holidays 3 times a year etc). For me the freedom, liberation is actually tangible.

The other thing is that I actually monitor my monthly spending to ensure that the better proportion of the £600-£700 per month saved is saved. In fact I tripled my monthly AVC's to take advantage of the higher rate tax benefit offered. Seemed crazy not to spend 60p to get £1 back from the friendly government. I actually suspect that this generous offer will be phased out in the future so am making hay why the sun shines.

To the system, by opting to rent when I could (no should) buy I am stopping some poor old couple from liquidating their house into a nice retirement fund to flounce away on the costa brava for the next 20 years. I am not playing the game in their eyes. If more people did it then who's going to pay the exhorbitant prices they need to cover their retirement needs !

Yet I think I should get a medal for the anguish I'm saving them. I feel more people should do it as kind of help the aged plan (help them from themselves).

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I'm a STR and dont owe anyone a jot. Manage to enjoy good food, good holidays and the equity that I was left with gives a great sense of security for me and my family. I used to have a £300k mortgage but now rent a house valued at £600k for significantly less than the equivalent interest only mortgage (well the mortgage that i would need). I fully intend to continue renting for many years.. we plan to move into a bigger house (with a pool) when the kids are older (both less than 5). Sure we get loads of raised eyebrows from those who don't understand why we don't buy. Its not a question to me of being able to afford it.. sure I could.. but do I want to .. no.

I think if people actually started to learn about the true cost of owning a house vs. renting they would try to rent more. Even in a flat house price market I think its more financially astute to do so, especially when you take into account the cost of buying a house, the cost of renovating a house (when was the last time someone kept everything exactly the same as the last owner), the cost (time) of diy etc - its great not having to go to b&q at the weekends, the cost to put decking down (or rip it up if it takes your fancy)... the cost to sell the house and start again.

One thing that really strikes me is that when we buy things for the house, they are things we will take with us. We've purchased some nice paintings, some quality (not IKEA) furniture, and quality appliances.. all things we can take with us to the next house.

I appreciate that he's not everyone's cup of tea but Robert T Kiwosaki (or something like that) does have 2 very important lessons for us all

1) your home is not an asset - unless it provides any form of passive income it is simply a liability even when you 'own' it... Very Very True

2) when you earn more money.. most people end up trading up... bigger house... bigger mortgage etc....

This is not a brag... just that I really don't understand why people in a similar situation don't sit down and do the math. Its about choice, its about freedom, its about not waking up and worrying about the bills. I honestly think renting is very under-appreciated. And long may it continue !!

Sorry, but I missed the part where the payoff lies, can you please help me as I can't see that there is any payoff for you?

Furthermore, do yourself a favour and calculate how long your STR funds will last you, then calculate how long the equity in a house will last you.

One more thing. It seems that almost anyone over the past 100 years who has owned their own place vs renting, has benefitted from annual HPI that is either eqivalent, or very close to the amount that they'd have to pay in interest for a loan on their own place. ie they got their money back. You certainly don't get that from renting.

For you, I see no payoff & no getting your money back, you are literally getting what you're paying for, short term accomodation. Enjoy it while you have it, that sense of 'what a mistake' will far outweigh the feeling of security that having a couple of years salary in the bank gives.

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You still have to worry about bills if you rent. (BTW when you rent the bills tend to get BIGGER as the years go by)

What if you 'buy to own' then ? Do these bills go DOWN ??????.......... DUH, Dont think so...

But compare this to the constant need to pay rent each year. Most renters today dish out 5% of the price of the house EVERY year. This goes up with inflation. After 5 years you have pissed a QUARTER of the purchase cost away in rent!

Most renters ???? At todays prices ???? I think your calculator has been shonked dry and has given up with your argument..........

Goes up with inflation ?........ It might not though...... So what anyway, no interest rates to worry about.......

I sense a lot of aggression here (and maybe a little denial)

The 'problem' with doing your rental comparisons is you are always stuck at day 1 with your comparisons.

I'm looking many years down the line. You WILL be paying out >5% of the purchase price in rent each year.

HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN PAYING RENT? (be honest)

Compare your annual rent today with the cost of buying that house 5 years ago?

Convince me it is less than 5%. We'll have this conversation again in 10 years if you like. Long term renting doesn't make sense which is why I argued against the OP.

I will ask you again WAP........ WHY are you bothering to post on here, if you are so intelligent you should be out there making millions in the property market with all your BTLs.... After all, us STRs are fool enough to pay your wages.....

This is a thread about STR and 'why it makes sense' . I've put forward some counter points against someone who seems to imply that selling (in his case maybe 50% equity?) to rent for 'many' years is a good plan.

At the end of the day it's his/your choice.

(and I'm not a BTL Landlord BTW)

Edited by Without_a_Paddle

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Having done both I can say the great thing about renting is the feeling that you're not tied into anything for more than 6-12 months. A mortgage feels like a life sentence, especially at high multiples of earnings.

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Having done both I can say the great thing about renting is the feeling that you're not tied into anything for more than 6-12 months. A mortgage feels like a life sentence, especially at high multiples of earnings.

I also feel a little irresponsible when I stay at hotels. The problem though, I'm out in the morning unless I cough up more money.

If your mortgage made you feel nervous, make sure to buy a place you can afford next time.

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Sorry, but I missed the part where the payoff lies, can you please help me as I can't see that there is any payoff for you?

Furthermore, do yourself a favour and calculate how long your STR funds will last you, then calculate how long the equity in a house will last you.

One more thing. It seems that almost anyone over the past 100 years who has owned their own place vs renting, has benefitted from annual HPI that is either eqivalent, or very close to the amount that they'd have to pay in interest for a loan on their own place. ie they got their money back. You certainly don't get that from renting.

For you, I see no payoff & no getting your money back, you are literally getting what you're paying for, short term accomodation. Enjoy it while you have it, that sense of 'what a mistake' will far outweigh the feeling of security that having a couple of years salary in the bank gives.

Sorry but I should have said that obviously the equity that I have (only £100k) is currently locked away in premium bonds (£40k), 5% govt bonds and a combination of maxi isa's & cash. Each month I add to it by buying more PB & shares. On top of that I get interest etc...

But the payback for me is that if anything goes wrong with the house, I phone the letting agent, they get the plumber (for the shower/ dishwasher), handyman (for the cracked tile above the underfloor heating) to come and sort anything out. Everything in the house is brand new (paid for by my friendly landlord) and when we decide to move next we will look for a house with a similarly high quality of fittings etc. Instead of spending £15k for a new kitchen, or a new conservatory, new windows etc... I simply find somewhere with all of that already done and paid for. To me its like living in a serviced apartment.

So there's the payback. Too many people think they've made a killing on property but when they look at the time & effort ( and cost involved - both in cash and time terms) to get their house to look a certain way.. they would find that their killing isn't so real. As I said.. in times when HPI is flat to very low. Thats the major caveat, I wouldn't argue when there's rampant HPI then I'm onto a loser. But there isn't here (Berkshire).

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5%?

I don't think so; yields on the better rental properties are well under this figure. I rent a 5 bed house on which the landlord's yield is 2.9%. A friend of mine who has just STR'd rents a 7 bed house where the yield is barely 2.5%.

Why on earth would we want to tie up (and risk) £600-750K of our own money in these houses when we can rent them so inexpensively leaving us free to invest our equity more sensibly?

Don't forget that as an 'investor' you will have to pay CGT on your share gains.

Let's say house prices end up the 'same' in 2010 as they are today in £££. (I think they will be higher)

If a 50% equity STR invests all his fund on the SM and gets 10% return each year for 4 years on his money then I reckon he will save maybe 10% on his mortgage size if he buys back in in 2010.

Assuming prices stay static. If they go UP 5% by 2010 the STR starts to sink into the red.

Please note that interest rates will probably be higher in 2010. He could have remortgaged for a 10 yr fixed rate today and be better off compared to the STR who might be faced with much higher rates in 2010.

This analysis assumes you have to increase your monthly outgoings to pay the extra money to fund rent.

eg the IO mortgage on a £600k house (50% owned so mortgage = £300k) will be LESS than the cost of renting that £600k house. The extra funds for the rent MUST be extracted from your STR fund for a direct and fair comparison.

If you get 15% returns each year on your fund and prices are 10% higher in 2010 you will save maybe 10% on your mortgage size.

The difference between paying a £300k loan and a £270k loan is peanuts. It's not worth the hassle of all the upheaval. The difference may cancel out if today's homeowner switches to a long term fixed rate loan and rates are higher in 2010.

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Having done both I can say the great thing about renting is the feeling that you're not tied into anything for more than 6-12 months. A mortgage feels like a life sentence, especially at high multiples of earnings.

God no... I couldn't jump around like that... far too stressful... I signed a 2 year agreement up front with the letting agent / landlord. The real brucey bonus is that its in the catchment area (400 yards) from a primary school thats consistently in the top 5% in the country in terms of results. The alternative was to go down the private school route but the cost for 2 kids would have been similar to having another great mortgage round my neck.

The landlord was happy to sign up for 2 years. It'll be time to trade up then !

Don't forget that as an 'investor' you will have to pay CGT on your share gains.

Let's say house prices end up the 'same' in 2010 as they are today in £££. (I think they will be higher)

If a 50% equity STR invests all his fund on the SM and gets 10% return each year for 4 years on his money then I reckon he will save maybe 10% on his mortgage size if he buys back in in 2010.

Assuming prices stay static. If they go UP 5% by 2010 the STR starts to sink into the red.

Please note that interest rates will probably be higher in 2010. He could have remortgaged for a 10 yr fixed rate today and be better off compared to the STR who might be faced with much higher rates in 2010.

This analysis assumes you have to increase your monthly outgoings to pay the extra money to fund rent.

eg the IO mortgage on a £600k house (50% owned so mortgage = £300k) will be LESS than the cost of renting that £600k house. The extra funds for the rent MUST be extracted from your STR fund for a direct and fair comparison.

If you get 15% returns each year on your fund and prices are 10% higher in 2010 you will save maybe 10% on your mortgage size.

The difference between paying a £300k loan and a £270k loan is peanuts. It's not worth the hassle of all the upheaval. The difference may cancel out if today's homeowner switches to a long term fixed rate loan and rates are higher in 2010.

With 2 people the gains you can make before paying cgt (outside a maxi isa) is around £16k per year. Inside the maxi isa (both my wife and I add £7k per year into a self select share isa each year on 6th April).. all the gains are completely tax free. Each year you can therefore build up £14k which over the years adds up to a nice little fund.. which is also completely liquid... and if you take control over the allolcation of shares then you get to buy and sell when you want)... my strategy on shares can wait for another day.

As I said.. I do not have 50% equity... only £100k which on a £600k mortgage leaves one hell of a sum to be borrowed. You might be right with people who have more equity but with me... its definately not worth the risk of taking such a big sum out.

Edited by thefruits

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Sorry but I should have said that obviously the equity that I have (only £100k) is currently locked away in premium bonds (£40k), 5% govt bonds and a combination of maxi isa's & cash. Each month I add to it by buying more PB & shares. On top of that I get interest etc...

But the payback for me is that if anything goes wrong with the house, I phone the letting agent, they get the plumber (for the shower/ dishwasher), handyman (for the cracked tile above the underfloor heating) to come and sort anything out. Everything in the house is brand new (paid for by my friendly landlord) and when we decide to move next we will look for a house with a similarly high quality of fittings etc. Instead of spending £15k for a new kitchen, or a new conservatory, new windows etc... I simply find somewhere with all of that already done and paid for. To me its like living in a serviced apartment.

So there's the payback. Too many people think they've made a killing on property but when they look at the time & effort ( and cost involved - both in cash and time terms) to get their house to look a certain way.. they would find that their killing isn't so real. As I said.. in times when HPI is flat to very low. Thats the major caveat, I wouldn't argue when there's rampant HPI then I'm onto a loser. But there isn't here (Berkshire).

Then I would label you as simply a consumer. Do you know any wealthy consumers? All I know of are people with debts & trinkets.

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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