cupidstunt Report post Posted May 31, 2006 Is it just me? or will there be a flood of properties on the market prior to next June - Just as the "slump" is gaining momentum from increased IR's http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...1/ixuknews.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BuyingBear Report post Posted May 31, 2006 (edited) I don't see the problem, if the properties are really as good as the EA's say they are then HIPS aren't a problem, if they're telling the truth then the pack will back up its wonderfulness. HIPS are a problem for agents, they can no longer claim ignorance or plaster over problems deep in the chain, they can of course pack the HIPS full of lies but when that is found out they can fully expect to be sued. Crooks dislike accountability or regulation and estate agents dislike HIPS. Edited May 31, 2006 by BuyingBear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leefam83 Report post Posted May 31, 2006 I don't see the problem, if the properties are really as good as the EA's say they are then HIPS aren't a problem, if they're telling the truth then the pack will back up its wonderfulness. HIPS are a problem for agents, they can no longer claim ignorance or plaster over problems deep in the chain, they can of course pack the HIPS full of lies but when that is found out they can fully expect to be sued. Crooks dislike accountability or regulation and estate agents dislike HIPS. I'm training to be a Home Inspector. I cant see anyone gambling with their HI license and putting lies in a HCR. A HIP is not complete without a HCR which is the most important part from a buyers prospective. It will only be a licensed HI who can produce or alter an HCR. It will only be a HI who can be sued for it's contents. No Estate Agent or anyone else will be able to alter a HCR. I've also talked to a few EA who are starting to embrace the idea of HIPS. It's coming if they like it or not so the smart ones are getting ready for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
werewolves Report post Posted May 31, 2006 I'm training to be a Home Inspector. I cant see anyone gambling with their HI license and putting lies in a HCR. A HIP is not complete without a HCR which is the most important part from a buyers prospective. It will only be a licensed HI who can produce or alter an HCR. It will only be a HI who can be sued for it's contents. No Estate Agent or anyone else will be able to alter a HCR. I've also talked to a few EA who are starting to embrace the idea of HIPS. It's coming if they like it or not so the smart ones are getting ready for it. Just like you don't see property surveyors getting cushy with property developers... As for lies, how do you accurately value a property? There is certainly a lot of leeway in costing. How is anybody going to prove that moderate purposeful low costing was not genuine. There are lies, damn lies, statistics, Tony Blair and finally estate agents... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wsn03 Report post Posted May 31, 2006 Is it just me? or will there be a flood of properties on the market prior to next June - Just as the "slump" is gaining momentum from increased IR's http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...1/ixuknews.html Its not you, I was just thinking the same thing, and June is traditionally the quiet time after the spring rush (if there's one left) Cue some donkey telling me I work for a construction company trying to stoke up the market now that I've decided to respond to this post....couldn't resist really, cupidstunt is right, this is the main driver (of the many possible) of your serious downturn, everyone flooding onto the market at the same time to beat the new deadline Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brassfarthing Report post Posted May 31, 2006 I like the idea. It's surely an improvement on the current system where you get a survey done on the property, then the vendor changes their mind about selling, or that the survey shows that the property has serious defects. You still have to pay for the survey and you lose the property. You then make an offer on another house and pay for another survey. Seems inefficient. Also, if vendors have to produce this report they will only put their houses on the market if they're serious. At the moment you get too many timewasters. If it costs £3000 though, that's another £3000 on the price of a house. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mildura Report post Posted May 31, 2006 As for lies, how do you accurately value a property? There is certainly a lot of leeway in costing. How is anybody going to prove that moderate purposeful low costing was not genuine. As i understand it neither the HIP as a whole or HCR on its own contains a valuation..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karen1000 Report post Posted May 31, 2006 Is it just me? or will there be a flood of properties on the market prior to next June - Just as the "slump" is gaining momentum from increased IR's http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...1/ixuknews.html You'd think so - but surely any house that goes on sale in May 2007 will have to have one of these packs in June? If that's the case, then the rush would be in Feb-April, depending on the average length of time to sell in your area (about 10-20 days in mine at the moment). Personally I don't think the sky will fall in, I think that once it settles down, and everyone gets used to the idea, it will seem normal, and will be a better system for all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mildura Report post Posted May 31, 2006 Personally I don't think the sky will fall in, I think that once it settles down, and everyone gets used to the idea, it will seem normal, and will be a better system for all. You could be right, but, it seems such a shame that at last the government have looked at our outdated system for property sales and this is the best they can come up with. A solicitor friend of mine has said the main thrust behind all of it is it's the simplest way for the Government to collect data on household energy usage which they need to do for some EU thingy. What better way than to get Joe Public to pay for it. If they'd really wanted to make the whole procedure quicker and more user friendly there are plenty of better ways.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rachman Report post Posted May 31, 2006 I'm training to be a Home Inspector. I cant see anyone gambling with their HI license and putting lies in a HCR. A HIP is not complete without a HCR which is the most important part from a buyers prospective. It will only be a licensed HI who can produce or alter an HCR. It will only be a HI who can be sued for it's contents. No Estate Agent or anyone else will be able to alter a HCR. I've also talked to a few EA who are starting to embrace the idea of HIPS. It's coming if they like it or not so the smart ones are getting ready for it. LeeFam, do you also think that any self-respecting mortgagee will accept reliance on these - or that the surveyors they currently use will be happy with the deal ? Of course they won't. You'll have to get their survey done to. Can I also ask, who is entitled to rely upon a HIPS, the buyer, the seller, the mortgagee (or all of them ?) - it seems to be a potential nightmare for everyone with only one net outcome - the government gets to find put more information on a centralised database. I also shudder to think how much the PI insurance on a HIP inspector will be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cupidstunt Report post Posted May 31, 2006 (edited) You'd think so - but surely any house that goes on sale in May 2007 will have to have one of these packs in June? No- that's just it so long as you beat the deadline that's OK and you won't need a "pack" Just checked my facts to make sure the above was correct! http://www.homeinformationpacks.gov.uk/buyers-sellers.aspx Edited May 31, 2006 by cupidstunt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Charles_Darke Report post Posted May 31, 2006 Is it just me? or will there be a flood of properties on the market prior to next June - Just as the "slump" is gaining momentum from increased IR's http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...1/ixuknews.html I don't know, but I think a lot of the 'test the water' sales will disappear from the market. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leefam83 Report post Posted May 31, 2006 LeeFam, do you also think that any self-respecting mortgagee will accept reliance on these - or that the surveyors they currently use will be happy with the deal ? Of course they won't. You'll have to get their survey done to. Can I also ask, who is entitled to rely upon a HIPS, the buyer, the seller, the mortgagee (or all of them ?) - it seems to be a potential nightmare for everyone with only one net outcome - the government gets to find put more information on a centralised database. I also shudder to think how much the PI insurance on a HIP inspector will be. Rachman , it's new . I know there's resistance to it right now but I can tell you that the current mortgage valuation survey ( which is normally not worth the paper ) sometimes done as a drive by , will go. The HCR will be used as part of a desktop valuation by the lender. Who will rely on HIPS ? Everyone. Why , because it's a better system . Any "self respecting " will accept this legislation for what it is. Law The PI insurance will be about 3K a year ( estimated ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leefam83 Report post Posted May 31, 2006 Just like you don't see property surveyors getting cushy with property developers... As for lies, how do you accurately value a property? There is certainly a lot of leeway in costing. How is anybody going to prove that moderate purposeful low costing was not genuine. There are lies, damn lies, statistics, Tony Blair and finally estate agents... Cant comment about lies , but you have to admit the current system is crap Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gilf Report post Posted May 31, 2006 No- that's just it so long as you beat the deadline that's OK and you won't need a "pack" Just checked my facts to make sure the above was correct! http://www.homeinformationpacks.gov.uk/buyers-sellers.aspx That will be a good tool in seeing how long a property has been on the market. Ea's won't be able to relist properties which have been on the books for months under the guise of being "new" as they will have to provide a HIPS at a cost to the vendor who I'm sure will be unwilling to pay for one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rachman Report post Posted May 31, 2006 Who will rely on HIPS ? Everyone. Why , because it's a better system . Any "self respecting " will accept this legislation for what it is. Law The PI insurance will be about 3K a year ( estimated ) But it's not their system and they won't like it and will still insist on their own surveyor being done. As a matter of question, who's employing all those soon to be out of work surveyors or are they all qualifying as HIPs - where's the incentive to become a surveyor.... ? Law is not a way to force practice - can I also ask who gets the money from doing a HIPS - how much is likely per £1,000 to go to you and how much for 'expenses'. As for the PI being £3K, yeah right - residential property claims are the bane of the professional indemnity insurer's life for lawyers - they may start there but will very soon be a whole lot more and subject to some pretty big carveouts.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Si1 Report post Posted May 31, 2006 I like the idea. It's surely an improvement on the current system where you get a survey done on the property, then the vendor changes their mind about selling, or that the survey shows that the property has serious defects. You still have to pay for the survey and you lose the property. You then make an offer on another house and pay for another survey. Seems inefficient. Also, if vendors have to produce this report they will only put their houses on the market if they're serious. At the moment you get too many timewasters. If it costs £3000 though, that's another £3000 on the price of a house. no it isn't - it's £3000 more onto the cost of transaction fees. makes short term investing less attractive, mightn't be a bad thing. Will there be a 'sell by date' on the pack - so when it invalidates after (say) a year, does this mean they have to fork out another 3k or sell the house before it runs out? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leefam83 Report post Posted May 31, 2006 But it's not their system and they won't like it and will still insist on their own surveyor being done. As a matter of question, who's employing all those soon to be out of work surveyors or are they all qualifying as HIPs - where's the incentive to become a surveyor.... ? Law is not a way to force practice - can I also ask who gets the money from doing a HIPS - how much is likely per £1,000 to go to you and how much for 'expenses'. As for the PI being £3K, yeah right - residential property claims are the bane of the professional indemnity insurer's life for lawyers - they may start there but will very soon be a whole lot more and subject to some pretty big carveouts.... Are you a member of RICS by any chance ? I suggest you read up a bit on HIP's and HCR's and their contents before commenting further. You're typing shite Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rachman Report post Posted May 31, 2006 Are you a member of RICS by any chance ? I suggest you read up a bit on HIP's and HCR's and their contents before commenting further. You're typing shite Maybe, but I am also someone who has to pay massively hiked PI insurance as a result of ballsed up conveyancing the general poor quality of the work done - I simply don't believe that such a standard will improve by forcing government led standards on people - RICS - even worse, the Law Society. I act for borrowers all day long, the arguments about letting a lender rely on the diligence report without also spending a fortune having it reviewed by their own counsel is unbelievable. This is not much different. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brassfarthing Report post Posted May 31, 2006 no it isn't - it's £3000 more onto the cost of transaction fees. makes short term investing less attractive, mightn't be a bad thing. Will there be a 'sell by date' on the pack - so when it invalidates after (say) a year, does this mean they have to fork out another 3k or sell the house before it runs out? My point is that if the vendor has to pay £3K that they didn't previously have to pay, then they will look to recover than sum somehow - presumably by building it into the asking price of the house. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rachman Report post Posted May 31, 2006 My point is that if the vendor has to pay £3K that they didn't previously have to pay, then they will look to recover than sum somehow - presumably by building it into the asking price of the house. It's also £3K out of the money go round and into a job that we did without quite happily if we were not stupid before. If you felt nervous, you did a survey and chose what level you wanted, if you did not and were a punk (felt lucky), you went for it and spent the £3K to redo the bathroom and recarpet throughout. Instead now, you are to be forced to spend it on a surveyor that you will not be able to force the mortgagee rely on so it will simply cost money. I just don't get the point ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mildura Report post Posted May 31, 2006 Rachman , it's new . I know there's resistance to it right now but I can tell you that the current mortgage valuation survey ( which is normally not worth the paper ) sometimes done as a drive by , will go. The HCR will be used as part of a desktop valuation by the lender. Leefam, i was under the impression that the HIP or HCR would not include a valuation report. Have i got this wrong, and if so that basically means HCR inspectors will be setting values rather than agreement between buyer and seller. I fully accept i may be wrong and would appreciate your comments. M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BuyingBear Report post Posted May 31, 2006 It's also £3K out of the money go round and into a job that we did without quite happily if we were not stupid before. Where does this £3k figure come from, are you deliberately conflating the cost of indemnity insurance with the cost of compiling a single HIP? Most of the stuff in the HIP is from the usual conveyancing process, except now it will be upfront and once only, hopefully we will see the end to the days of five potential buyers all paying for seperate documents and surveys only to find the house was built on a weapons dump. I can see why certain professional bodies are somewhat pissed to find they will be unable to charge £500 each time just to photocopy the same old. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rachman Report post Posted May 31, 2006 "The HCR will be used as part of a desktop valuation by the lender" That'll be a cracker when they are proved to be poor models and based on historical information - cue a nice big lawsuit involving lots of people. That is so easy to manipulate - at least if you have a surveyor out there actually on site who is putting his neck and PI on the line with the valuation, the lender has some comeback..... - if I am cynical I can see that a HIP person would be able to systematically add or remove a few K from the price to suit the person he's taking a backhander from - and don't try to tell me it won't happen... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teddyboy Report post Posted May 31, 2006 Sorry for sounding ANTI-EA here but my point is serious. Surely a surveyor/Inspector is in the best position to give a realistic valuation? EG 3 Estate Agents price up a property. Each one trying to give a high valuation in order to secure the instruction. They give £195K, 205K and £210K. What is the true value? Well the ceiling price may have been £180K so all of them are NOT THE TRUE VALUE. The inspector would dispell these valuations and say that at PEAK and in good condition you can expect around 180K. If an inspector then sees a house thats in a poor state he can say 180K - REPAIRS so true valuation would be £165K? As it stands now - EA's in my area at least, give the highest (above ceiling) valuation on MOST properties REGARDLESS OF CONDITION!!! This would stop this nonsense. TB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
