If... The Oil Runs Out

[BillyShears]

http://www.oilendgame.com/index.html

According to this, peak oil doesnt matter. Business and commercial interests will drive a change to better bio fuels which will be cheaper, greener etc., etc. Can anyone tell me why they are wrong. Initially it looks like a fairy tale, but according to their own links, the authors conclusions are taken seriously by those in the know.

I can't understand why nobody is mentioning ethanol. It's one of the few fuels that everyone could make at home. And as for commercial production, doesn't sugar beet grow quite well in the UK? Brazil is moving towards being independent for liquid fuel.

Billy Shears

[SarahBell]

I can't understand why nobody is mentioning ethanol. It's one of the few fuels that everyone could make at home. And as for commercial production, doesn't sugar beet grow quite well in the UK? Brazil is moving towards being independent for liquid fuel.

Billy Shears

We could grow sugar beet. Probably enough to make the fuel to plough the field to grow the sugar beet in.

We need renewables - wind, water, sun. As well.

Elsewhere someone's asked why big power companies don't pay people to put solar stuff/wind on their houses to feed into the grid... PP would be easier than these big schemes which the nasty nimbies don't like.

Apart from the fact the big companies make more money by screwing us over on "price inflation" - won't the government just pay for a nuclear power station to make electric rather than the companies investing in things themselves.

[BillyShears]

We could grow sugar beet. Probably enough to make the fuel to plough the field to grow the sugar beet in.

I find that view rather difficult to believe. Sugar cane is a better energy source than sugar beet, as the byproducts of sugar extraction can be burnt to provide energy for the extraction, but sugar beet stilll has useful amounts of sugar in it, and if properly mass produced

Do you have any figures on the energy required to produce energy from sugar beet versus the energy obtained from it? Or did you just make up your claim in the quote above. For sugar cane, it's about one unit of energy in provides eight units of energy out I believe. Sugar beet, not so good, but I don't think it's as bad a picture as you suggest.

We need renewables - wind, water, sun. As well.

I didn't claim that we don't.

Billy Shears

[SarahBell]

I find that view rather difficult to believe. Sugar cane is a better energy source than sugar beet, as the byproducts of sugar extraction can be burnt to provide energy for the extraction, but sugar beet stilll has useful amounts of sugar in it, and if properly mass produced

Do you have any figures on the energy required to produce energy from sugar beet versus the energy obtained from it? Or did you just make up your claim in the quote above. For sugar cane, it's about one unit of energy in provides eight units of energy out I believe. Sugar beet, not so good, but I don't think it's as bad a picture as you suggest.

I didn't claim that we don't.

Billy Shears

You're right it'd probably provide quite a lot of fuel but modern farming methods require input of currently oil based products. We could easily return to the days of spraying with muck I'm sure. And organic farming must be much better because it uses less chemicals.

However I think oil seed rape is also probably worth looking into too. Those huge yellow fields aside motorways are majoritively that.

I think the biggest problem will be people accepting they can't actually eat the exotic diet they've gotten used to. Remember what we used to eat in the 70s? Seasonal potatoes - so chips were very tricky in summer, marrows in autumn, brussel sprouts in winter. Food is seasonal without the airmiles and that's not a bad thing just will be difficult to adapt to.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/energy/biofuels.../article-152282

Using agricultural land to grow bio-energy crops would compete with the use of land for food and animal feed production. According to the EEA, to reach the 5.75% target of the biofuels directive, biofuel crops would take up between 4% and 13% of the total agriculture area of the EU-25.

Edited May 31, 2006 by SarahBell

[BillyShears]

You're right it'd probably provide quite a lot of fuel but modern farming methods require input of currently oil based products. We could easily return to the days of spraying with muck I'm sure. And organic farming must be much better because it uses less chemicals.

However I think oil seed rape is also probably worth looking into too. Those huge yellow fields aside motorways are majoritively that.

I think the biggest problem will be people accepting they can't actually eat the exotic diet they've gotten used to. Remember what we used to eat in the 70s? Seasonal potatoes - so chips were very tricky in summer, marrows in autumn, brussel sprouts in winter. Food is seasonal without the airmiles and that's not a bad thing just will be difficult to adapt to.

I definitely agree about oilseed rape. Vegetable oil can be burnt in a number of ways. At present alternative fuels seem to be burnt in petrol or diesel engine that have been slightly modified. Once people start making lots of alternative fuels, dedicated engines will follow.

I think that people will eventually have little steam generators in their back garden. And all sorts of things which might otherwise become landfill can be used to run them and generate energy. Two birds with one stone.

But I'd agree that people's lifestyles are going to change. Bye bye two cars for every family. Bye bye V8 cars for every short trip to the newsagent.

Pedals in front of the seats in theatres, and everyone pedals like mad to keep the movie going.

Billy Shears

Edited May 31, 2006 by BillyShears

[Guest Bart of Darkness]

Aside from energy, oil is also used for the production of plastics. Is there any way of producing plastic without oil being involved?

[SarahBell]

I definitely agree about oilseed rape. Vegetable oil can be burnt in a number of ways. At present alternative fuels seem to be burnt in petrol or diesel engine that have been slightly modified. Once people start making lots of alternative fuels, dedicated engines will follow.

I think that people will eventually have little steam generators in their back garden. And all sorts of things which might otherwise become landfill can be used to run them and generate energy. Two birds with one stone.

But I'd agree that people's lifestyles are going to change. Bye bye two cars for every family. Bye bye V8 cars for every short trip to the newsagent.

Pedals in front of the seats in theatres, and everyone pedals like mad to keep the movie going.

Billy Shears

Did you read what I'd put elsewhere about power companies putting energy capturers on people's homes rather than investing in big schemes? I suspect thats the way the government could push things - to insist that companies invest massively in renewables and giving that as an option - with perhaps a % take on the energy for the house being included in the scheme (for that houses energy bills)

I think we should all be thinking about what they did in the war when there was little food coming in to the country - growing our own, using local spaces for long term food growth - orchards etc.

[AgeingBabyBoomer]

We need renewables - wind, water, sun. As well.

To be pedantic, sun,wind and water cannot be rebwed, sugar beet can.

What you mean is natural energy (add geothermal)

The problem with agro renewables is that there ain't enough land to

grow what we currently need.

Fossil fuels are the amortisation of biorenewables over millions of years,

which should alert us to the unsustainability of growing fuel in the amounts

needed to meet current consumption.

ABB

[BillyShears]

Did you read what I'd put elsewhere about power companies putting energy capturers on people's homes rather than investing in big schemes? I suspect thats the way the government could push things - to insist that companies invest massively in renewables and giving that as an option - with perhaps a % take on the energy for the house being included in the scheme (for that houses energy bills)

I think we should all be thinking about what they did in the war when there was little food coming in to the country - growing our own, using local spaces for long term food growth - orchards etc.

Even flats that don't have gardens can still grow stuff on the windowsills and window baskets. Hanging baskets from eaves. If we need food, we can produce a lot more than we are now, even in cities. Imagine if all those flowers and shrubs in people's front gardens were peas and beans rather than flowers and shrubs. Compost produced from food waste. On it goes.

The problem with agro renewables is that there ain't enough land to

grow what we currently need.

What we currently need, or what we currently use?

And I don't think anyone says that one power source is going to replace oil. I think it's going to be a combination of everything possible but still a major cutback in energy use.

Billy Shears

Edited May 31, 2006 by BillyShears