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Social Credit.

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I have a friend who has spent most of her life researching into social credit, and is part of the organisation (i think she's president of it, Douglas etc. She's interested in the basic income where everyone gets a certain amount no matter what. She written several books surrounding these issues, and recently got a Doctorate due to her research (although she doesn't like to tell people!). I've noticed on here, (and to her surprise) there seems to be a few people who are interested in this subject, and know about it. Unless i'm imagining it - is there anybody who does know about this. I hope someone reads this - as i don't want to get shot down for it on the main discussion bit. Cletus mentioned the subject earlier today. I think my friend would be interested to know as she thinks hardly anyone is aware of it. If you are aware of it - you may have heard of her. Is this subject widely known about?

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I have a friend who has spent most of her life researching into social credit, and is part of the organisation (i think she's president of it, Douglas etc. She's interested in the basic income where everyone gets a certain amount no matter what. She written several books surrounding these issues, and recently got a Doctorate due to her research (although she doesn't like to tell people!). I've noticed on here, (and to her surprise) there seems to be a few people who are interested in this subject, and know about it. Unless i'm imagining it - is there anybody who does know about this. I hope someone reads this - as i don't want to get shot down for it on the main discussion bit. Cletus mentioned the subject earlier today. I think my friend would be interested to know as she thinks hardly anyone is aware of it. If you are aware of it - you may have heard of her. Is this subject widely known about?

I have never heard of Douglas but have just quickly read up on him on Wikipedia. His ideas are interesting, particularly his A+B theory.

This is something I have long wondered about (in probably an incoherent way). i.e. for business as a whole to make 'profit' then it must collect more money (from consumers ultimately) than it pays out (to employees in the form of wages). Therefore, since employees are also consumers, there comes a point where there is no money left to buy anything.

Incidentally, I think this effect will be very evident in the not to distant future when this current trend of exporting jobs has run its course. If manufacturers are only willing to pay 1/4x in wages in eastern Europe when they used to pay x in the UK, then eventually they can only expect to be able to charge 1/4y for their products instead of the y they used to get in Britain.

This is the 'great global levelling' that others have talked about.

I will be somewhat amused in a few years time when we hear the likes of Digby Jones complaining about how industry as a whole can no longer get customers to buy their products (in the UK). What else is to be expected if collectively they are paying out a quarter of their former wage bill and possibly nothing in the UK? People here won't buy anything and those in eastern Europe can only afford to pay a quarter what we used to be able to.

I think a great many in industry seem to think that the ability to charge UK prices and pay eastern Europe or Chinese salary levels will continue for ever. However, you can only sell the family silver once and you can only get yourself in massive debt once in order to supplement your reducing income. I would have thought that this was something that CAPITALISTS would have understood, i.e. capital is a one off. When it's spent, it's spent.

This is something that makes me think that this current house price bubble in particular will not be repeated for a very long time indeed. I sometimes can't see how the current levels of debt can be cleared unless we go into a Japanese-style deflation scenario. Historical levels of interest rates just won't allow it to be paid off.

To answer your question, I'm sure others will be interested in this subject. Thanks for bringing it up. It's something I will read more about now (social credit and Douglas).

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I have a friend who has spent most of her life researching into social credit, and is part of the organisation (i think she's president of it, Douglas etc. She's interested in the basic income where everyone gets a certain amount no matter what. She written several books surrounding these issues, and recently got a Doctorate due to her research (although she doesn't like to tell people!). I've noticed on here, (and to her surprise) there seems to be a few people who are interested in this subject, and know about it. Unless i'm imagining it - is there anybody who does know about this. I hope someone reads this - as i don't want to get shot down for it on the main discussion bit. Cletus mentioned the subject earlier today. I think my friend would be interested to know as she thinks hardly anyone is aware of it. If you are aware of it - you may have heard of her. Is this subject widely known about?

Can't say I have heard of Douglas & I cetainly wouldn't support his views as my own seem to differ slightly.

The following is part of a rant I had on another thread but I guess it is relevant........

Having a child or being unemployed is not a reason to sit around the house all day doing nothing & being paid. It should be treated as a career move, nothing more.

The whole problem is compounded by this 'Nanny State' taking so much tax off everybody then handing back in benefits as it sees fit. This is promoting an "it ain't worth working, I get more on the dole" attitude.

It promotes poor attendance because it doesn't take long for folk to work out that even if you only work 3 days a week you still get the same pay & there is no point at all in working overtime.

It also promotes instances where people turn down better paid promotions because they are not going to gain anything because it will just reduce their benefit so it isn't worth the hassle of taking promotion for the same money.

It also allows 'career mums' who take up with any suitable sperm donor available to pop out a sprog every five years as another one starts school, they can just about keep this up till the youngest leaves uni then get a pension, never having worked a day ever.

MAKE PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE!

I honestly cannot see why it would take a life's work to reach these conclusions, no disrespect.

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I have read a lot of monetary reform material including some from a ‘Social Credit’ perspective. While I wouldn’t say I was a ‘social creditor’ per se, I do have sympathy for the idea of a citizen’s income/national dividend, which is probably the part that makes Social Credit most distinct form other monetary reform ideas.

Social Credit’s detractors often do nothing to debunk its analysis of debt-based money and fractional reserve banking but focus instead on Douglas’s anti-Semitism, so let’s start there. It’s certainly true that he made some extremely distasteful remarks, but attempts to portray his ideas as ‘Jewish conspiracy theory’ material, as some do, is going to far. The remarks are more indicative of the age of paranoia that existed between the wars. His work is focussed on the banking system and how it works, not a conspiracy theory. Karl Marx made anti-Semitic remarks, despite being a Jew, Churchill’s been accused of anti-Semitism, capitalism Henry Ford was an anti-Semite, although he later apologised for his publications in this area. So to call Social Credit anti-Semitic due to remarks by one of its founders is like calling Marxism anti-Semitic due to comments by Karl Marx.

In the UK, Social Credit as a movement was not really created by Douglas but by John Hargreaves, an enigmatic and paradoxical chap. From Quaker parentage, he rose to prominence by leading a pro world-peace and pacifist scouting organisation (The Kibbo Kift), which had broken away from Baden Powell’s ‘militaristic’ movement. The group was initially focussed on woodcraft, and activities included Native American ritual combined with old English ideas and even avante garde ‘totem poles’ – it’s reminiscent of the global-yet- pastoral mindset you see in many political greens today. Hargreaves, an enthusiast for different world cultures, praised Jewish culture and none of his writings blur Jews with bankers. For him, the ‘money power’ was just that money power.

Hargreaves saw that new technology, rather than providing freedom was enslaving people who had to work harder and harder to service as more jobs were automated out of existence (sound familiar?). When he came across social credit, he saw it as a way for people to be able to enjoy a natural outdoor life without being enslaved by inconsequential work. Still, Hargreaves was no luddite - he was a technologist who went on to develop a gyroscope-based navigation system for aircraft. How much human innovation do we miss out on because most of us are in inappropriate pay-the-mortgage jobs that do not match our talents to any degree?

The Kibbo Kift was a small, middle-class organisation, and far from a mass political movement. Hargreaves knew the political battles were being fought on the streets of cities with marching communists and fascists competing for the hearts of the working class. Thus were born the Greenshirts, who later became the Social Credit Party of Great Britain. Some have pointed to the irony of the Kift adopting this ‘military’ garb.

Although Douglas’s Social Credit had developed from guild socialism, Hargreaves was an advocate of personal freedom, some sort of libertarian, and equally hostile to state socialism, as much fascism and bank-controlled capitalism. Hargreaves, while freakishly multi-talented – writer, artist, novelist, groundbreaking inventor, faith healer (?), he was probably to much of a control freak and too hyperactive to really lead the movement. Many left after being frustrated by Hargreaves’ inability to devolve responsibility to others.

Social Credit died out quickly after World War two, but it was a major mass movement in many parts of the English speaking world and some parts of Western Europe. In fact, it’s status as merely a curious footnote in history is unjustified.

So what happened to it? Where did all those social creditors go? Well, Douglas had never wanted to form a movement - he just wanted his ideas taken on by mainstream parties. Debt-money has been periodically challenged by somewhat lone voices in both the Tory and Labour parties, by liberals and conservative, left and right. An evolution of social credit merged with other anti-debt money ideas and can be seen most strongly in the policies of the Green Party, who have advocated monetary reform and a citizen’s income (although in recent years, these policies seem a little buried in Party policy). In fact, the old Ecology Party attracted many looking for a home after the demise of Social Credit. Debt-money’s constant demand for growth, whether beneficial to the world not, together perhaps with the outdoorsiness of the Kibbo Kift association saw a lot of social credit-esque ideas enter the field green/sustainable economics.

Sadly, many neo-nazi groups have also adopted social credit ideas wholesale. Anti-banking ideas combined with Douglas’s anti-Semitism became a useful bolt-on economic policy for such groups.

Still, returning to some of the actual social credit-type ideas. Imagine a world where everyone got a Citizen’s Income based on debt-free money that enabled that to have basic food and shelter. It’s an advanced modern world, so why not fund this for free with debt free money? You could ‘top up’ your income doing what you wanted as you would have financial security. Why become a sales manager if you really wanted to be a research scientist? Why give up a creative but low paid career because you can’t afford to live? Why do meaningless work at Burger King handing out cancer-food when you could be doing useful community work? Why dump your kids on a child minder a few months after their birth when you have a citizen’s income to fall back on? If all you want to do is eat, sleep and write poetry in the park all day go for it - plenty of other people will want to do society’s other functions. Debt money seems to remove more and more choice from modern life, making us all miserable slaves making our talents go begging.

There would be no scroungers, no miserable over taxed workers - just a meaningful equality.

But of course, if you had this citizen’s income created as debt-free money under the present system it would end up in banks who would only need to keep a mere 8% and created fresh debt money with the rest causing inflation. So the bank’s ability to do this would have to be progressively scaled back to avoid this by increasing the amount they need to keep on reserve. Bad for the banks? You bet. For 99% of the population - great! I believe SOME bank credit (debt money) is okay - you wouldn’t want ONLY the government of the day to decide on what warrants fresh money supply, they should be replaced with Community Banks who will invest in what people actually want to see, rather than merely allowing big business to run riot over the world in order to get fat returns.

A good overview of debt-money and various different debt-free money ideas is the Grip of Death by Michael Rowbotham.

You can read the first chapter here.

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  • 339 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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