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7,000 Doctors Too Leave Nhs

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http://www.personneltoday.com/Articles/200...+doctors+by.htm

BMA claims NHS will lose more than 7,000 doctors by 2008

15 May 2006 14:36

One in six doctors will leave the NHS in the next two years, the British Medical Association (BMA) has claimed.
Its predictions show that more than 7,000 doctors are planning to retire early or leave by 2008, causing huge problems for the NHS.
Many general practitioners (GPs) have delayed retirement to benefit from significant salary increases and contract changes.

Another blow to the Miracle Economy. With immigration rising we need more doctors not less :(

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According to an article on the front page of one of the papers, it's because NuLab has increased the average doctor's pension from 30k to 45k. That's about five or six average workers' entire tax load going to one doctor.

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According to an article on the front page of one of the papers, it's because NuLab has increased the average doctor's pension from 30k to 45k. That's about five or six average workers' entire tax load going to one doctor.

Imagine the uproar if a Tory government had favoured a wealthy profession at public expense :D

All part of the Economic Miracle I suppose.

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Another blow to the Miracle Economy. With immigration rising we need more doctors not less :(

Make retirement illegal for all.

Work til you drop.

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Is it too scary to contemplate a 'dumbing down' of examinations to ensure we have an adequate supply of qualified personnel to fill these vacancies. I guess TB has enough time left in office to arrange this.

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Is it too scary to contemplate a 'dumbing down' of examinations to ensure we have an adequate supply of qualified personnel to fill these vacancies. I guess TB has enough time left in office to arrange this.

WB, you're already too late. The government has already taken over the setting of professional exams from the medical profession. It's called Modernising Medical Careers.

The result. I trained for 15 years to be a consultant surgeon.

New training, 7 years. Only 3 of which are likely to be hands on operating. (I did 9).

Add in the fact that hours are about 60% of what they used to be and the level of experience is likely to be very different.

The other development is to bus in doctors from the rest of the world to come and work in the UK. South Africans, Germans, French. No decent UK surgeon or American has the time to do this, you have to ask yourself how good any surgeon that can come over must be? Would you employ a builder that can start tomorrow or might you worry about his abilities?

The results so far have been terrible and they are going to get worse.

Still waiting lists are down and that's all that matters.

Edited by uro_who

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Another blow to the Miracle Economy. With immigration rising we need more doctors not less :(

With immigration, surely we should be getting the doctors we need, No ?

After all, plenty of Polish dentists are arriving to take on the NHS work that's "unprofitable" for our home grown dentists. . . . . .

. . . . . but the BMA will be ever vigilant in their protectionist drive to keep out the competition, I fear

B)

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WB, you're already too late. The government has already taken over the setting of professional exams from the medical profession. It's called Modernising Medical Careers.

The result. I trained for 15 years to be a consultant surgeon.

New training, 7 years. Only 3 of which are likely to be hands on operating. (I did 9).

Add in the fact that hours are about 60% of what they used to be and the level of experience is likely to be very different.

The other development is to bus in doctors from the rest of the world to come and work in the UK. South Africans, Germans, French. No decent UK surgeon or American has the time to do this, you have to ask yourself how good any surgeon that can come over must be? Would you employ a builder that can start tomorrow or might you worry about his abilities?

The results so far have been terrible and they are going to get worse.

Still waiting lists are down and that's all that matters.

Ohmigosh!

I had a sort of inkling as my daughters nursing training went from a 4 year course to 3 years, but if your figures are correct, well that's just plain scary!!

I guess the waiting lists are down because of the ever increasing number of unexpected deaths.

Trust good ol' TB to have a solution in place to ease the pensions crisis.

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With immigration, surely we should be getting the doctors we need, No ?

After all, plenty of Polish dentists are arriving to take on the NHS work that's "unprofitable" for our home grown dentists. . . . . .

. . . . . but the BMA will be ever vigilant in their protectionist drive to keep out the competition, I fear

B)

No there is no block to EU doctors coming to the UK and the BMA has no opposition (and cannot by law). What is terrible is that a large number of perfectly good doctors from India and Pakistan who normally have excellent language skills and a similar training to the UK are being sent back home and denied work permits. Meanwhile we have posts in my hospital (and others all across the country) where the doctor could not start work as they are from the EU and have had to be employed (as they scored well in theory on their CV) despite the fact that they can't speak English at all. Don't worry however they are sent to language schools at the tax payers expense.

As a paid up member of the very expensive BMA I am endlessly wound up by their lack of protectionism or much in the way of any useful trade union function whatsoever. They seem much keener on telling the world their thoughts regarding boxing (who gives a monkeys if two decerebrate fools what to kill each other in a boxing ring) than to look after the people who pay their very expensive subs.

Old training

House officer 1 year

Anatomy demonstrator 1 year

SHO 3 years

Registrar 2 years

Research Fellow 2 years

Registrar 6 years

Total 15 years (plus 5 as a medical student)

New training

House officer 2 years

ST1 and ST2 2 years

ST 3,4,5 3 years

Total 7 years

!!!!!!

Good luck!

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No there is no block to EU doctors coming to the UK and the BMA has no opposition (and cannot by law). What is terrible is that a large number of perfectly good doctors from India and Pakistan who normally have excellent language skills and a similar training to the UK are being sent back home and denied work permits.

I stand corrected - and indeed I remember now that the new rule was the subject of protest gatherings in London last month - so thanks for that.

As a paid up member of the very expensive BMA I am endlessly wound up by their lack of protectionism or much in the way of any useful trade union function whatsoever. They seem much keener on telling the world their thoughts regarding boxing (who gives a monkeys if two decerebrate fools what to kill each other in a boxing ring) than to look after the people who pay their very expensive subs.

So does the BMA support an increase in the number of medical school places to make up the shortfall ?

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No there is no block to EU doctors coming to the UK and the BMA has no opposition (and cannot by law). What is terrible is that a large number of perfectly good doctors from India and Pakistan who normally have excellent language skills and a similar training to the UK are being sent back home and denied work permits. Meanwhile we have posts in my hospital (and others all across the country) where the doctor could not start work as they are from the EU and have had to be employed (as they scored well in theory on their CV) despite the fact that they can't speak English at all. Don't worry however they are sent to language schools at the tax payers expense.

As a paid up member of the very expensive BMA I am endlessly wound up by their lack of protectionism or much in the way of any useful trade union function whatsoever. They seem much keener on telling the world their thoughts regarding boxing (who gives a monkeys if two decerebrate fools what to kill each other in a boxing ring) than to look after the people who pay their very expensive subs.

Old training

House officer 1 year

Anatomy demonstrator 1 year

SHO 3 years

Registrar 2 years

Research Fellow 2 years

Registrar 6 years

Total 15 years (plus 5 as a medical student)

New training

House officer 2 years

ST1 and ST2 2 years

ST 3,4,5 3 years

Total 7 years

!!!!!!

Good luck!

That is a pretty extreme interpretation of the previous training, stretched out to the max. It was widely acknowledged in the profession that much of this time was unnecessary and was effectively just killing time waiting for a registrar post to come up (i.e. anatomy demonstrator, and for most people the research post).

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That is a pretty extreme interpretation of the previous training, stretched out to the max. It was widely acknowledged in the profession that much of this time was unnecessary and was effectively just killing time waiting for a registrar post to come up (i.e. anatomy demonstrator, and for most people the research post).

I agree in some regards. Clearly one can train to be a consultant physician in a couple of months :P . The trouble with surgery is its still a craft profession. Your only as good a cabinet maker as the number of cabinets you've made.

If you tighten up on the definition it's the hands on operative surgery that's the key bit and there is a huge difference in that. What's more during the anatomy demonstrating I did get to learn some anatomy and physiology which I subsequently found quite useful. Both this and the research registrar job had clinical sessions as well. It's the 9 years hands on operating at 60 hours a week (24,840 hours) versus 3 at 48 (6624 hours) which is important and about a quarter of the time I spent in a hands on training post.

No matter what many say in the government and even the BMA, I've yet to meet any newly appointed surgical consultants that felt over trained.

I stand corrected - and indeed I remember now that the new rule was the subject of protest gatherings in London last month - so thanks for that.

So does the BMA support an increase in the number of medical school places to make up the shortfall ?

Yes it does.

It also decries the current spectacle of medical unemployment. The are a percentage of UK doctors who cannot find work and it's increasing. This is of course a tool to decrease the power of the medical profession (what little there is left!). Again the tax payer is picking up the bill.

Edited by uro_who

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      • down 5% +
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