Unchartered Territory

[Dr Doom]

I've been lurking on this site for sometime now, probably about since 2003 or earlier at which time my parents were selling up in a rushed fashion various BTL properties in anticipation of an impending crash.

I know it gets mentioned quite often here that we're basically in unchartered territory as far as house prices and the world economy go. What amazes me though is how my various areas of interest have sort of converged in recent years.

"peak oil" gets mentioned fairly frequently now especially in light of the recent price surge to $75, whereas a few years ago a lot less. I first really understood the significance of peak oil last January while reading Michael Ruppert's book Crossing the Rubicon, which is also about 9 11 conspiracies.

All of these subversive things I follow:

9 11 conspiracies

house price crash

peak oil

You see exactly the same type of completely irrational reaction trying to bring it up in any kind of civilised discussion with an average person. Denial, fear, bargaining, etc. And I often find that someone that is prepared to "buy in" to one of these issues might, react irrationally to another. Usually depending on their personal circumstances.

I've also noticed there are quite a number of users that crossover from powerswitch to housepricecrash, or perhaps vice versa, and I think it's good that we now have greenenergyinvestors.com. Dr Bubb btw it might be an idea to promote your forum on powerswitch. I'm sure they wouldn't mind.

I started down this journey of discovery looking for a way to financially better position myself. On the way I've discovered things that quite frankly scare the living shit out of me. Namely the way that the masses have been indoctrinated to indebt themselves to the max, on the justification that the asset their leveraged against is going to rise massively in value indefinitely. It's slavery but with a sci-fi twist. This has been patently obvious to me ever since I started working 2 years or so ago.

It troubles me somewhat that I may be relatively well positioned for the shitstorm that is coming; but what of the people that deride me as some sort of anarchist nutter. Let em burn as some on here would say. What if the financial crisis is so bad that private property is abolished completely?

Personally I feel simultaneously terrified and excited about the new period in history that we are entering. Mainly terrified though it has to be said.

Denial Stops Here - Michael Ruppert DVD

Is a totally excellent guide to where we are currently economically - aimed at a US audience, but I think it's safe to say it applies the UK 90% as well.

Mike even predicts houseprice declines of 50% within 2 years.

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

Nothing wrong with being an anarchist! So long as you're the right type of anarchist that is...

[Michael]

how about the state confiscating all BTL property and renting it to the people priced out......at low rents?

They could begin with Wandsworth!

[MRMX9]

Perhaps Respect might try this approach if they win control of Tower Hamlets next week.

That would be a sight to behold - all those yuppie buy to let flats in Canary Wharf being forcibly converted into affordable housing for families, single parents and key workers. That I would like to see!

[Dr Doom]

how about the state confiscating all BTL property and renting it to the people priced out......at low rents?

They could begin with Wandsworth!

I thought rents were already low because of a glut of BTL property.

That would be a sight to behold - all those yuppie buy to let flats in Canary Wharf being forcibly converted into affordable housing for families, single parents and key workers. That I would like to see!

The crash that's coming is going to be like nothing we've ever seen before. In my mind this isn't really a "left/right" issue but has recently become one more of "what kind of world will we be living in?" issue.

The fact that the government is actively covering up the impending energy crisis, and simultaneously aggressively pushing through ID cards. The one ray of hope is that this system of deception they've built is collapsing around them.

The reason I brought up abolishment of private property rights is because it is intrinsicially linked to ID cards. The government gets you in a position where all your daily needs require an ID card and you are basically their slave. Don't tow the official line and your ID card becomes revoked and you become a nonperson.

[BuyingBear]

Agreed with your first post. I don't really care about ID Cards to be fair.

Possbly because I've nothing to hide and the fact that when I drive, I carry my driving licence which has my address etc etc. Without getting in to a debate about the rights and wrongs of ID Cards. In a sentence what is people's main beef?

It goes to the heart of the relationship between the government and the individual, in common law countries man is free to go about his business provided it does not contravene the law, restrictions and limits are placed upon government as it is the servant, not the master, of the people. Most European countries operate under Code Napoleon where the state is supreme and grants rights to the people as a privilege or prerogative, your freedom of speech or freedom of assembly is simply a 'gift' given by state, a favour that can be revoked at any given time, which can hardly be said to be natural, inalienable, God-given and self-evident as these rights are under common law.

ID cards exemplify everything that is wrong with this government, they're authoritarian, hugely bureaucratic and costly, tokenistic and involve another big public IT project that will over-run, be dysfunctional, cost a fortune and create more problems and security issues than it solves. When the central database is cracked, or leaked by some questionable civil servant, and your ID passed on and circulated amongst the criminal classes you may then have something to fear, when it comes to targets for counterfeiting then ID cards will become the gold standard because of some unquestioning implicit trust held in them.

If you have nothing to hide and live within the law why should you be tagged, tracked and treated like a criminal?

Edited April 26, 2006 by BuyingBear

[dipstick]

I think the scary thing about ID cards is that their very existence is 'designed' to appeal to the man in the street.

The selling tactic is that if you are honest then you have no argument against them as they are meant to protect the nice people from the nasty.

In actual fact, what the government is doing, is increasing laws and regulation all the time and soon nearly everybody will be able to be prosecuted for some illegal act along the way.

I found it rather a coincidence that the government passed a law to allow the police to shoot terrorist suspects and then, lo and behold, a month or so later, a guy was shot in the head on the tube. It hardly raised an eyebrow because it was sold as being "in everybodies interest." If it was a test to check on public reaction then it worked.

If you'd have written that shooting into a novel it wouldn't have been out of place.

[Time to raise the rents.]

Agreed with your first post. I don't really care about ID Cards to be fair.

Possbly because I've nothing to hide and the fact that when I drive, I carry my driving licence which has my address etc etc. Without getting in to a debate about the rights and wrongs of ID Cards. In a sentence what is people's main beef?

How about this one:

I can already prove who I am. I have a Passport, a birth certificate, a driving license, bank account, council tax bill, national insurance number, tax file reference number, a registered motor vehicle, many more things I'm sure.

What benefit will be derived from me being able to doubly or tripply prove who I am? Is it just that the govt will consolidate all of my ID's to keep track of my affairs? What assurance do I have that this consolidation won't be used against me by this or future govts?

Here's another problem for you:

I understand that ID cards will be issued when people get their Passport renewed. What then are the rules for people like me, who carry a foreign passport? Do I not get an ID? Does that then single out all people in the UK who haven't got citizenship?

I think the scary thing about ID cards is that their very existence is 'designed' to appeal to the man in the street.

The selling tactic is that if you are honest then you have no argument against them as they are meant to protect the nice people from the nasty.

In actual fact, what the government is doing, is increasing laws and regulation all the time and soon nearly everybody will be able to be prosecuted for some illegal act along the way.

I found it rather a coincidence that the government passed a law to allow the police to shoot terrorist suspects and then, lo and behold, a month or so later, a guy was shot in the head on the tube. It hardly raised an eyebrow because it was sold as being "in everybodies interest." If it was a test to check on public reaction then it worked.

If you'd have written that shooting into a novel it wouldn't have been out of place.

Our minders will make sure that we the people never have any real power against their massive machine:

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1219847,00.html

[Ethel]

If you have nothing to hide and live within the law why should you be tagged, tracked and treated like a criminal?

Personally, I would be happy to be tagged, tracked or even filmed 24/7 wherever I go on surveillance cameras, if it meant I would be guaranteed safe from being mugged, raped, murdered etc.

[non-FTBer]

Ignoring the human wrongs angle of ID cards, the biggest argument that New Labour didn't even try very hard with is the cost benefit analysis:

COSTS:

HUGE.... MASSIVE.... and also at a cost to us all when we get an ID card, view our data, update our data.

New laws mean you can be prosecuted and thrown in jail for not updating the NIR with your latest data (at your expense).

BENEFITS:

Benefit fraud (load of b0ll0cks - if ID cards were to stop benefit fraud then only people claiming benefits need them)

Terrorism (oh come on.... )

Identity Theft (only exists due to lax checking by financial institutions... and this isn't the governments problem, its a problem for the financial industry as they (or we) bear the brunt of the costs).

George Orwell was amazingly accurate in his predicitons.... date was a little out, but still amazing.

[dipstick]

To be honest, Ethels statement;-

"Personally, I would be happy to be tagged, tracked or even filmed 24/7 wherever I go on surveillance cameras, if it meant I would be guaranteed safe from being mugged, raped, murdered etc."

frightens me the most.

Either Ethel is 6, or we are turning into a nation who is frightened of maturity and living life.

Do you really think Ethel that 24 hour survelliance is a good exchange for your freedom?

[BuyingBear]

Personally, I would be happy to be tagged, tracked or even filmed 24/7 wherever I go on surveillance cameras, if it meant I would be guaranteed safe from being mugged, raped, murdered etc.

Guarantee? You are being promised no such thing. Of course, since the introduction of CCTV the UK has been transformed into a peaceful utopia. All those nasty foreigners (like TTRTR) aren't compelled to carry any such ID so you will be perfectly protected for all those awful things.

Btw, was it you I saw smoking whilst using a hose-pipe last Sunday? Oh well, I'll report you anyway

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Edited April 26, 2006 by BuyingBear

[Justice]

All of these subversive things I follow:

9 11 conspiracies

house price crash

peak oil

GW-Bush had the towers pulled so he could go to war and control yet more oil and now he has more under his control the price is going up so don’t be so sure about peak oil being the major course just now.

Now the public in the USA are starting to turn on Bush you might just get to see a few facts leaking out like kerosene does not melt steel and aeroplanes do not fold their wings before impacting the Pentagon.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Justice

[Cinnamon]

Erm, I hate bringing the obvious up, but have you ever wondered why the Nazis in Germany were so very successful at spotting jews, who were often completely assimilated whether converted to christianity or not, often since 3-4 generations?

-> ID cards and a lot of other data that had been squirreled away since many years in the famous German bureaucracy.

In theory, 24 hour surveillance, ID cards and so on is a good idea, until a regime that is nasty gets to run the country.

[Kam]

nothing wrong with a bit of anarchy,

Not that I'm and anarchist, but at every time in history that I know of, extreme crisis and anarchy within the social and political structures of the UK have lead to New beginings and points in history that have been remembered for the acheivements after the event.

Plague, fire, riot, famine, war. civil unrest

Now I know people are going to get hurt but I have come to live with that - I know that people I care very much about are likely to get their fingers burnt. However I think we need a Shock to wake us up.

The only thing, is that theses shocks are never remembered for very long

The Generation that live through the event carry it with them for their entire lives,

their children are aware of it,

and their grand children regard at as a thing of the past.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Kam

[Time to raise the rents.]

IN FACT, I believe that the creation of the ID card system is an admission by govt of the failure of previous ID systems, that passports and NI numbers & drivers licenses can't be relied on.

So it is fair to say that the new system has a very high probability of failing to delivered the promised benefits (if any).

Don't worry though, it'll employ a whole new bunch of paper-pushers who'll need a whole new database & naturally they'll get full govt pension rights etc etc etc.

[RichB]

Personally, I would be happy to be tagged, tracked or even filmed 24/7 wherever I go on surveillance cameras, if it meant I would be guaranteed safe from being mugged, raped, murdered etc.

Trouble is that it won't STOP you being raped, mugged or murdered, only improve the chances of nicking whoever did it. If the powers that be could be bothered to review the footage ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../09/ixhome.html )

Indeed what gets worse is when all your 'unique' biometric details are all in the system, and the system id's you for someone elses crime. ( http://talkleft.com/new_archives/006787.html )

And really, who wants to be subjected to identity theft a la Never Say Never Again, or worse... imagine proving it wasn't you.

All this before the start of government intervention in your life, how to replace the card if it gets washed, lost or stolen, what to do if you go out without it etc etc.

[Spring In The Air]

To be honest, Ethels statement;-

"Personally, I would be happy to be tagged, tracked or even filmed 24/7 wherever I go on surveillance cameras, if it meant I would be guaranteed safe from being mugged, raped, murdered etc."

frightens me the most.

Either Ethel is 6, or we are turning into a nation who is frightened of maturity and living life.

Do you really think Ethel that 24 hour survelliance is a good exchange for your freedom?

Too bloody right. Every time I look up and see one of those sinister hemi-spherical black cameras that now watch our every movement (in towns and cities, no doubt they have us on satellite when in the country) I think 'when did we give our freedom up?' Did anyone ask us?

[watchinandwaiting]

Who fancies government CCTV in theire living room? If you've nothing to hide why should you be bothered? I can see it now, "huge increase in domestic violence, in the interest of public safety all households will be monitered".

Frogs and warm water spring to mind!

[Spring In The Air]

Who fancies government CCTV in theire living room? If you've nothing to hide why should you be bothered? I can see it now, "huge increase in domestic violence, in the interest of public safety all households will be monitered".

Frogs and warm water spring to mind!

Don't worry, the telescreen will be here soon. You'll be able to get up and do your exercises in front of it (got to keep the NHS budget under control) and then go off to your job rewriting history at the Office of the Deputy Big Brother.

[watchinandwaiting]

Just wait for cash to be abolished! Every purchase on plastic!!!!!

Edited April 26, 2006 by watchinandwaiting

[Time to raise the rents.]

Just wait for cash to be abbolished! Every purchase on plastic!!!!!

Yes the fancy ideas of public servants, banks and institutions of thought. What they can't fathom though is that we don't want them in every part of our lives!

[DabHand]

IDcards will serve no worthy use and will cost billions.

At best it will lay the foundations for Brazil-esque bureacratic nightmares of false accusation and IDtheft.

At worst it will lay the foundations for a future government to go to war against its own people.

Succinct enough?

[watchinandwaiting]

IDcards will serve no worthy use and will cost billions.

At best it will lay the foundations for Brazil-esque bureacratic nightmares of false accusation and IDtheft.

At worst it will lay the foundations for a future government to go to war against its own people.

Succinct enough?

This is the problem nowadays!

The government work for us, not the other way round.

[AFineMess]

Personally, I would be happy to be tagged, tracked or even filmed 24/7 wherever I go on surveillance cameras, if it meant I would be guaranteed safe from being mugged, raped, murdered etc.

The problem with this attitude is that you have to trust the people administering the system. And the criminals who hack it, or bribe officials. Let's see... yes. Not at home right now - on to the burglary lads!

Throughout history, those in power have hurt and killed far more people than criminals. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and all that. Best to make sure they don't get too much of it.