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DoubleBubbleTrouble

Smallest, Pokiest Homes In Europe

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In the course of researching I've been struck by the same message I've seen in several places and was wondering why we don't spend more time talking about it;

From http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/uploads/m...erCities_2_.pdf

Our housing compares poorly by international

standards too. Britain has some of the smallest and oldest

housing in Europe, and what is being built now is even

smaller than the existing stock.

In particular this table from http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/uploads/m...0_June_2005.pdf

HouseSizesInEurope.png

We spend a lot of time talking about our prices but hardly any talking about just how rotten the stuff we have and the stuff we are building has become!

Surely it's one thing if prices tumble and we can afford to buy but it's another when we realise it's all vastly inferior to what we could get elsewhere!

post-1528-1144761109.png

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We have talked about this a lot. This is what happens when nimbies in government force the entire population of a small island like Britain onto 7% of the land.

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The UK is being turned into the Hong Kong of Europe and the Quality of Life, low though it already is by European standards, will be reduced even further for the majority (though the top few percent will do even better than before).

E.g Is there any other Norther European nation where the poor a being forced to pull their own teeth out (as shown on Yorkshire TV the other day).

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We have talked about this a lot. This is what happens when nimbies in government force the entire population of a small island like Britain onto 7% of the land.

Hi,

Don't froget the vast tracts of development land held for decades at a time by independent firms to restrict supply.

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We have talked about this a lot. This is what happens when nimbies in government force the entire population of a small island like Britain onto 7% of the land.

Ah perhaps I missed it... any must see threads on it I should review?

I have to admit to being bewildered by the power of the NIMBY. The bit that gets me is why aren't the people being adversley affected by NIMBY'ism more angry and vocal about it... look at what those French kids managed to do, yet here we are waiting and hoping for HPC which could lower prices but won't;

1. Make the quality of housing in the UK any better

2. More importantly stop the next House Price Boom from happening

Don't froget the vast tracts of development land held for decades at a time by independent firms to restrict supply.

Does anyone have any evidence that this occurs? It would be useful to know.

Seems to me though it's a difficult argument to make stand up, surely development companies have a vested interest in developing on the land?

If there were banks of land being held for speculation why don't they pop onto the market when prices rise, surely that's what you would expect anyone hoarding land to be waiting for?

Instead what we see is that the rate of development never changes despite the market pressures...

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HouseSizesInEurope.png

A very interesting table, and it indeed confirms my suspicions about new builds in the UK.

Why do the developers think we won't notice the small rooms? Do they think we are stupid?

Or, do they think 'luxury' chrome B&Q fittings makes up for the loss of sq footage?

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A very interesting table, and it indeed confirms my suspicions about new builds in the UK.

Why do the developers think we won't notice the small rooms? Do they think we are stupid?

Or, do they think 'luxury' chrome B&Q fittings makes up for the loss of sq footage?

They are taking the piss and will carry on doing so as long as they can get away with it.

In fact this is the price of a liberal economy with high employment. The standard of living for well paid workers in Europe is much higher but good jobs are hard to find and income taxes are higher.

Obviously the differences are now being pushed to their limits - a crashing housing market will seriously restrict the mobility of the workforce and stealth taxes have been eroding the benefits for all except the higher earners.

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Add in the price per square metre and then we will really see how much we are being ripped off.

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A very interesting table, and it indeed confirms my suspicions about new builds in the UK.

Why do the developers think we won't notice the small rooms? Do they think we are stupid?

Or, do they think 'luxury' chrome B&Q fittings makes up for the loss of sq footage?

It is rather a shocking table, but this is something that has been getting worse for years now.

Two major influences come from government policy. I'm not sure of the exact regulation, but I know that minimum room size regulations were significantly relaxed during the 80s and 90s, leading to a lot of preposterously small flats that wouldn't have been allowed a decade or so earlier.

And secondly this particular government is obsessed with maximising housing units on brown-field sites and elsewhere - the regulations both allow and indeed encourage builders to maximise the number of units, at the cost to the space each one is allowed to take up. Of course developers are happy to do this as it tends to maximise their profit. But the government seems entirely unconcerned by the standard of life that will therefore be experienced by the occupiers. From a Labour government I find this pretty disgraceful.

Since the war in this country we seem to just keep finding new ways to build tacky, inadequate property that makes no-one happy except the developers.

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Does anyone have any evidence that this occurs? It would be useful to know.

Check the year end financial statements from the listed house builders. They usually include a bit on the value of their "land banks".

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Since the war in this country we seem to just keep finding new ways to build tacky, inadequate property that makes no-one happy except the developers.

Indeed. Generally I find that the most attractive houses I see are those built by the Victorians or their predecessors.

Personally, I'd really like to keep whats left of our countryside, but the only way to do this and still have reasonable housing is to stem the population growth........

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Personally, I'd really like to keep whats left of our countryside, but the only way to do this and still have reasonable housing is to stem the population growth........

so you would rather deny life to a generation of children than spoil a little bit of someone elses view of the countryside ?

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so you would rather deny life to a generation of children than spoil a little bit of someone elses view of the countryside ?

RFD is right, curtailing population growth solely on the basis that we want to keep 93% of the country green, as opposed to 90%, is really extreme.

OTOH the new development should be in the form of new villages or enlargement of existing settlements, rather than once-off stuff in the countryside, that sort of development is a bit nightmarish. And if the new development could be somewhat pleasing that would be good. The real problem is that new houses are sh1te in general. Ugly as well as small. The incentives to builders are all wrong, but that is part of the vicious circle of bad restrictive planning/high prices.

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Indeed. Generally I find that the most attractive houses I see are those built by the Victorians or their predecessors.

Personally, I'd really like to keep whats left of our countryside, but the only way to do this and still have reasonable housing is to stem the population growth........

It's not only about density - also about the quality of what is built and standards of building - for instance at one time all apartments were built with double floors for sound insulation, but that was given up years ago. And most of the new-builds are timber-frames which means that will be starting to fall apart within a couple of decades, which is just stupid short-termism for the sake of this year's balance sheet.

It is tricky to work out what to do about green-field planning. I believe we actually have the highest proportion of unbuilt-up land in Europe so it's hard to believe that a bit of it couldn't be freed up. But of course it would be sad to wreck too much of the countryside. Maybe if we at least started building decent-quality housing in our cities this wouldn't be such an issue.

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This is how people live and the UK public seems obsessed by property, yet nobody cares that we're building homes over 50% smaller than other European countries (including Southern Europe).

We're farmed like sheep... or battery hens. :angry:

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Personally, I'd really like to keep whats left of our countryside, but the only way to do this and still have reasonable housing is to stem the population growth........

I'd be interested to hear why you feel that not much is left of our countryside?

1. Is it from personal observation?

2. General consensus?

3. Something you've seen in the media?

The reason I ask is that it's a widely held view but a cold hard look at the facts quickly shows that it's actually a widely held misconception.

It's a very dangerous one too since it's this sort of thinking which has resulted in many of the few truly green area's in cities (football fields etc etc) being sold off for housing development as part of this insane brown field only mantra.

But seriously I'd like to hear why you feel that way... it's a view I'd like to challenge more widely but need to understand it's root causes.

Edited by DoubleBubbleTrouble

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so you would rather deny life to a generation of children than spoil a little bit of someone elses view of the countryside ?

No. But regulated immigration and not having two dozen kiddies by the time you're 13 Vicky Pollard stylie might help.

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I'd be interested to hear why you feel that not much is left of our countryside?

1. Is it from personal observation?

2. General consensus?

3. Something you've seen in the media?

The reason I ask is that it's a widely held view but a cold hard look at the facts quickly shows that it's actually a widely held misconception.

It's a very dangerous one too since it's this sort of thinking which has resulted in many of the few truly green area's in cities (football fields etc etc) being sold off for housing development as part of this insane brown field only mantra.

But seriously I'd like to hear why you feel that way... it's a view I'd like to challenge more widely but need to understand it's root causes.

I'll go for option 1.

Now bear in mind I'm discounting Scotland here - Its just that I'd like to walk up a mountain without being in a queue, you know. Be able to walk in the fields and not see a house or village every mile or bump into a fellow walker round every corner, or see and hear the next A road.... you get the picture. Actually get some SPACE!

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I'll go for option 1.

Now bear in mind I'm discounting Scotland here - Its just that I'd like to walk up a mountain without being in a queue, you know. Be able to walk in the fields and not see a house or village every mile or bump into a fellow walker round every corner, or see and hear the next A road.... you get the picture. Actually get some SPACE!

Where abouts do you live roughly, just I'd like to type it into Google Earth and see how green it is?

Don't you think it's possible all those people are in the countryside because of the massive concrete monsters high density dwelling has made the cities!

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Personally, I'd really like to keep whats left of our countryside, but the only way to do this and still have reasonable housing is to stem the population growth........

"whats left of our countryside"?!? You really have fallen for their misleading propaganda, 90% of the UK is empty, only a fraction of the UK is classified as urban and the majority of people live on a tiny proportion of the land.

There is more greenbelt than ever, more than twice the land currently allocated for housing, and it keeps growing each and every year... much faster than the rate of building. The reason we have so few playing fields, allotments and open spaces in our town and cities is precisely because they aren't protected, hence this important "brownfield" land is destroyed at the expense of useless scrubland that is protected.

People wrongly assume that building on a playing field is "building on the greenbelt", quite the opposite, the reason useful 'green' land is developed is because no new protected 'greenbelt' land is released for development.

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only a fraction of the UK is classified as urban and the majority of people live on a tiny proportion of the land.

Well, I should hope its only a fraction. More than that and there'd be some explainin' to do!

So what qualifies as "Urban" and what qualifies as "Rural"

I have driven and walked all over Somerset, Hampshire and wilshire and you can barely swing a cat without hitting a building of some description (OK, I exagerate) I dont care if all 5000 hamlets and villages in Hampshire are classified as "Rural" they are still buildings, alright?

And IIRC the reason the playing fields are being sold of is so Tony's Cronies can line thier pockets.

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I have driven and walked all over Somerset, Hampshire and wilshire and you can barely swing a cat without hitting a building of some description (OK, I exagerate)

You do :) Take a look at the government mapping site for land classifications. I believe the North West of England is much more densely developed than the South East, contrary to popular believe.

Most people do not venture far outside existing settlements or road/motorway corridors, and when they hit open country they're travelling at high speeds which compresses space, just as traveling at slow speed through towns condenses space as it takes so much time to only move a short distance, hence skewed perceptions of the true urban and rural balance.

Edited by BuyingBear

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Great table DBT.

One issue is that builders are not releasing their land and building on it. We are building less new houses now that at any time since victorian times. So, they can get away with building postage stamps as everyone keeps buying them due to supply issues.

The other problem is landmass/per capita versus countries of similar population. As someone said, this place is becoming Hong Kong.

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  • 335 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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