Morocco - My Next Target

[The Soup Dragon]

Will do MMV. I'm having trouble sending it, but have E-mailed administrator with error message I get ("Sorry, you are not permitted to send an email via this board.") Hopefully you'll get it tomorrow.

[DreamWeaver]

Hi guys,

I am very bullish about Morocco and bought a 153 m2 penthouse frontline beach appartment in Sania Plage for Euro 257k last May. Its half way between Marina Smir and Maiina Kabilla on the med. I got so fired up when I visited that my girlfriend bought an appartment on the spot. And then I went and bought a 12 meter berth at Marina Smir for about Euro 37k .

The guys selling were MacAnthony Realty International (MRI). Their guys on the ground showed me their rental contracts ... rents go insane for July and August, even in appartments nowhere near the beach. Its wealthy Moroccans that rent here and its an established rental market. This might somewhat mininimize risk of terrorist attack, and also minimize the effect on rent if such a thing were to happen.

All good so far.

But MRI also sold me two appartments in Bansko in May even though I told them I will need rental income to fund them. They must have known then that there was a serious risk of over supply. They told be Bulgaria was the next best investment opertunity after Morocco. Makes me wonder about these guys.

Anyway, I'd be very keen to hear comments on my purchase(s).

And, where next? Berlin?

Hi guys,

I am very bullish about Morocco and bought a 153 m2 penthouse frontline beach appartment in Sania Plage for Euro 257k last May. Its half way between Marina Smir and Maiina Kabilla on the med. I got so fired up when I visited that my girlfriend bought an appartment on the spot. And then I went and bought a 12 meter berth at Marina Smir for about Euro 37k .

The guys selling were MacAnthony Realty International (MRI). Their guys on the ground showed me their rental contracts ... rents go insane for July and August, even in appartments nowhere near the beach. Its wealthy Moroccans that rent here and its an established rental market. This might somewhat mininimize risk of terrorist attack, and also minimize the effect on rent if such a thing were to happen.

All good so far.

But MRI also sold me two appartments in Bansko in May even though I told them I will need rental income to fund them. They must have known then that there was a serious risk of over supply. They told be Bulgaria was the next best investment opertunity after Morocco. Makes me wonder about these guys.

Anyway, I'd be very keen to hear comments on my purchase(s).

And, where next? Berlin?

[BrickingIt]

MRI. The things I could tell you about MRI.

[dogbox]

And, where next? Berlin?

Ive done Morocco and Berlin recently.

Bulgaria doesnt do it for me. In terms of central Europe Slovenia seems good. It has a large middle class, lots of physical attributes, winter and summer rentals and seemingly not too much corruption. The population density is ok too.

Im also looking at North Wales commercial property.

Estonia is also on my scope (I was buying a farm but I withdrew) but location is much more important than is usual as the population density if 5 x less than Denmark so much of the land is worthless. Am considering a beach front appartment off - plan just outside Tallin for £60000, but rental ease is a concern.

A key issue that has taken shape in my mind is RENTAL FEASIBILITY. Its all very well buying an appartment in Budapest / Krakow et al but what if the tenant doesnt pay? Language and trust considerations then come to the fore when dealing with foreign letting agents.

One thing I always do is talk to lots of agents rather than relying on 1. Amazing what you distill by talking to 10 agents on one development.

[catara]

But MRI also sold me two appartments in Bansko in May even though I told them I will need rental income to fund them. They must have known then that there was a serious risk of over supply. They told be Bulgaria was the next best investment opertunity after Morocco. Makes me wonder about these guys.

Anyway, I'd be very keen to hear comments on my purchase(s).

Bansko is already way oversupplied and there are 3 hour long lines for the gondola. I went once there and will never go skking again in Bulgaria.

Bulgaria is already way too expensive. The Black Sea resorts are overfilled with properties and the resale market is completely dead. They same will be starting next year in Bansko, Pamporovo, etc.

About Morocco, I already said what I wanted to say in the other thread.

[agtisch]

so where WOULD you buy?

[fws]

so where WOULD you buy?

Keep up Agtisch!

Catara has just told us on the Moroccan Property Hype forum that he's going to A Place in the Sun exhibition next week and is buying a property in Morocco for half the price that us suckers paid.

Then we can all go and do the same. Simple!!

[catara]

so where WOULD you buy?

That's a good question.

I would say that Cape Verde might be a good investment. They have beach front 1 bedroom apts. for £30000 and flights start to go there soon.

Also land in newly entered countries in EU (plus BUlgaria and Romania).

BUt the best bet would be in USA in about 3 years from now, if Pound remains strong.

For the moment I see no really good real estate investments as prices went up a lot everywhere around the world.

Besides, a 1bedroom apt. for rent in Spain can be found for £100/week. Same in Turkey, BUlgaria, France, etc. And the occupancy is the best at 40%-50%Why would one want to pay 100000 Euros which implies at least £300 mortgage per month plus the maintanance cost which goes in Spain at £80/month?

Keep up Agtisch!

Catara has just told us on the Moroccan Property Hype forum that he's going to A Place in the Sun exhibition next week and is buying a property in Morocco for half the price that us suckers paid.

Then we can all go and do the same. Simple!!

Why would I buy in Morocco? To be forced to go there because rentals won't be good and I need to use my house?

Of course they will not sell 1/2 price as long as people are still willing to pay full-price for rotten goods.

[fws]

I would say that Cape Verde might be a good investment. They have beach front 1 bedroom apts. for £30000 and flights start to go there soon.

Cape Verde was definitely third world, with dirt track roads and a non-existent health system three years ago. Prices have gone up over 300% since then due to plans to increase tourism (and rampant speculation).

Please tell me why it's such a good buy if Morocco isn't.

[catara]

Sal Island has become very expensive.

Santo Antao or Maio or BOa VIsta are still acceptably priced.

You can find first line properties for 25000 Euros on those islands.

BUt of course one needs to go there before buying.

I said - it might be a good investment in Cape Verde. It might be just a waste of money...

I guess the development of infrastructure will be faster than in Morocoo because the distance are tiny on Cape Verde islands.

[dogbox]

Cape Verde was one of the poorest nations on Earth and totaly aid dependant although this is changing.

I expect 3 years ago you would have critiscised early investors for thier madness just as you now do so for those entering the new Moroccan market.

I looked carefuly at CV but declined. The state is tiny and therefore easily overthrown. Corruption really is part of the fabric.

The land is almost all at sea level so rising levels due to global warming or just a freak surge were a worry for me.

I also could not find a large development with a CHOICE of letting agents, unlike Saidia so letting would be difficult.

CV is also twice the flight time of Morocco.

Budapest might be worth a look. £70000 will get you a bohemian city apartment with parking. No reason they wont be at London price levels in 15 years so a huge return possible (despite current political difficulties, life goes on).

Seems better value than Tallin or Lubjana.

[catara]

I expect 3 years ago you would have critiscised early investors for thier madness just as you now do so for those entering the new Moroccan market.

3 years ago a 1 bedroom apt. in CV would have been 10000 Euros. This is about 1/2 of thye price of an acceptable new car. So no, who pays 10000 Euros for a front line apart. in a country which seems to be stable is not crazy.

What I criticize about Morocco is that, being an extremely poor, undeveloped and very risky country, it could still afford to ask 75000 Euros for a 1 bedroom apt. And this befiore making any effort to improve the infrastructure and to offer any assurance for the safety of the tourists.

Edited September 25, 2006 by catara

[gavinm42]

[And this befiore making any effort to improve the infrastructure and to offer any assurance for the safety of the tourists.

Do you have some kind of agenda Catara?

Which country can offer assurances for the safety of tourists?

Bali?

New York?

London?

[DreamWeaver]

MRI. The things I could tell you about MRI.

Go on then Tell me! Before I buy more stuff from them.

[DreamWeaver]

Ive done Morocco and Berlin recently.

Bulgaria doesnt do it for me. In terms of central Europe Slovenia seems good. It has a large middle class, lots of physical attributes, winter and summer rentals and seemingly not too much corruption. The population density is ok too.

Im also looking at North Wales commercial property.

Estonia is also on my scope (I was buying a farm but I withdrew) but location is much more important than is usual as the population density if 5 x less than Denmark so much of the land is worthless. Am considering a beach front appartment off - plan just outside Tallin for £60000, but rental ease is a concern.

A key issue that has taken shape in my mind is RENTAL FEASIBILITY. Its all very well buying an appartment in Budapest / Krakow et al but what if the tenant doesnt pay? Language and trust considerations then come to the fore when dealing with foreign letting agents.

One thing I always do is talk to lots of agents rather than relying on 1. Amazing what you distill by talking to 10 agents on one development.

Thanks Dogbox. I'm looking at Cape Verde but feel its too late. Way too late. Germany looks better I think. Do you guys know of another Cape Verde which is 3 years behind so that we can get in at the bottom?

Hey, what do you guys thing of Shanghai? Guaranteed 7% rents for 5 years on UKP 100K apartments in Pudong. Need 44k cash to make it work. Hmm?

Jeez guys, if we could get high rents, we could leverage big time and make a fortune. Unless, of course, the rents dont materialize in which case we are seriously screwed.

Another one I thoroughly investigated was high rental yielding multi family housing in New York state. Yields of 50% and higher. There was mention of them in another thread somewhere but no comments in nearly a year. I followed these up and finally selected a property yielding 47% gross in Rockford, low crime area of city, looks in good nick etc. So I rang the estate agent and guess what he told me? DONT DO IT! He says it may be possible to make it work but I'd need to be there on the ground, and be prepared to spend much of my time in courts trying to evict tenants for failing to pay rent. real shame. Because if you feed 47% yield into da spreadsheet, it kinda goes WOW and you fall off your chair.

[The Soup Dragon]

DreamWeaver. 47% sounds terrific, but when something sounds too good to be true it usualy is.

On Pudong, and China in general, I think a new law has been passed to stop foreign people buying over there. Think I read that in one of the property magazines last month. It mentioned that you could still buy by setting up your own Chinese company to acquire it.

The Chinese Government has created this law following concerns that the local population were being priced out of the market. Given this there is a good chance that they will be looking at ways to stop foreigners setting up companies for sole purpose of acquiring property. If you are going down this route it might be better to go for a property that is either complete or almost complete (limit time Govt has to stop your purchase.) I think there are still some apartments at G-bridge in Podong for sale. Comes with very long rental guarantee from Accord Hotels. (Percentage starts off good, but will be very small further down the lne when you consider your property has appreciated and your rental hasn't.)

Only other warning with China (I do like China as a long term investment) is that you are buying leasehold not freehold. Agents will tell you there is an expectation for the Govt to make leaseholds freehold. That has to a be a risk.

[dogbox]

COMPARISON TO MY SAIDIA VILLA:

SAIDIA

£170000

Detached

3 championship courses

beach 7 km (total 29 km)

Olympic standard sports complex

Own pool

AC

Marina - Latest with 850 berths and port facilities

Decor - contemporary Moroccan

Lakeside Village in Quinta Do Lago Golf resort Portugal;

£720000

Terraced

1 championship course

No on site beach

Small gym

Own pool

AC

No marina

Decor - 1980s hotel chintz stylie with tie - back cutains and BRASS bits everywhere

Mwha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Edited October 13, 2006 by dogbox

[BigLog]

COMPARISON TO MY SAIDIA VILLA:

SAIDIA

£170000

Detached

3 championship courses

beach 7 km (total 29 km)

Olympic standard sports complex

Own pool

AC

Marina - Latest with 850 berths and port facilities

Decor - contemporary Moroccan

Lakeside Village in Quinta Do Lago Golf resort Portugal;

£720000

Terraced

1 championship course

No on site beach

Small gym

Own pool

AC

No marina

Decor - 1980s hotel chintz stylie with tie - back cutains and BRASS bits everywhere

Mwha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Thanks Dogbox for the comparison.

I take it you've been to the olympic complex. What's it like ??

And that marina, sounds lovely, any pictures ??

Finally, I never knew Morocco was reknowned for championship golf courses, please tell me more about the facilities........

Oh silly me, you're talking about something that is about 4+ years away.............

Can't wait to see the quality

[catara]

If you go to www.weatheronline.co.uk and look at Oujda weather (i.e. more or less Saidia weather), you will see that the weather is very cold (almost 0 Celsius) during the winter and

is under 14C at night for 6 month/year.

So Saidia has at most a 6-7 month/season.

Canary Island and Egypt are much better as 12 month/season.

[BigLog]

If you go to www.weatheronline.co.uk and look at Oujda weather (i.e. more or less Saidia weather), you will see that the weather is very cold (almost 0 Celsius) during the winter and

is under 14C at night for 6 month/year.

So Saidia has at most a 6-7 month/season.

Canary Island and Egypt are much better as 12 month/season.

Well spotted Catara (wondered how long it'd take till someone spotted yet more of Dogbox's ignorance/ramping of the place).

Dogbox failed to pick that tiny detail out on his friend's DVD (still DB know's best, after all 60 Gucci shops can't be wrong, 10hotels, Olympic yada yada yada.......)

Edited October 13, 2006 by BigLog

[catara]

Well spotted Catara (wondered how long it'd take till someone spotted yet more of Dogbox's ignorance/ramping of the place).

Dogbox failed to pick that tiny detail out on his friend's DVD (still DB know's best, after all 60 Gucci shops can't be wrong, 10hotels, Olympic yada yada yada.......)

And looking again I realized that in July and August the temperature is 38-40 Celsius almost everyday.

Which really makes Saidia a 5 month season (April-June) and September-October.

Casablanca and Agadir have a much better climate, why didn't the KIng decide to build over there?

[BigLog]

And looking again I realized that in July and August the temperature is 38-40 Celsius almost everyday.

Which really makes Saidia a 5 month season (April-June) and September-October.

Casablanca and Agadir have a much better climate, why didn't the KIng decide to build over there?

Catara, you're getting warmer and warmer every time !!

That's why Dogbox was very foolish to be 'saving' a few hundred pounds on an airline flight to just check out what he'd be getting before laying out his money.

Yet, I guess the Trump/Buffet modelling got the better of him !

Still he knows best.......

:

[The Soup Dragon]

If you go to www.weatheronline.co.uk and look at Oujda weather (i.e. more or less Saidia weather), you will see that the weather is very cold (almost 0 Celsius) during the winter and

is under 14C at night for 6 month/year.

So Saidia has at most a 6-7 month/season.

Canary Island and Egypt are much better as 12 month/season.

Thanks for website Catara.

Looking at daily max temperatures so far this year for Oujda (Oujda being in land without the sea breeze):

All temperatures are Centigrade.

Jan 10 to 19 degrees.

Feb 10 to 20 degrees

Mar 17 to 34 degrees.

Apr 13 to 29 degrees.

May 18 to 41 degrees.

Jun 23 to 37 degrees.

Jul 32 to 41 degrees.

Aug 28 to 41 degrees.

Sep 24 to 34 degrees.

Oct to date 24 to 40 degrees.

I'm shivvering just thinking about those ice cold temperatures. What a nightmare!

[BigLog]

Thanks for website Catara.

Looking at daily max temperatures so far this year for Oujda (Oujda being in land without the sea breeze):

All temperatures are Centigrade.

Jan 10 to 19 degrees.

Feb 10 to 20 degrees

Mar 17 to 34 degrees.

Apr 13 to 29 degrees.

May 18 to 41 degrees.

Jun 23 to 37 degrees.

Jul 32 to 41 degrees.

Aug 28 to 41 degrees.

Sep 24 to 34 degrees.

Oct to date 24 to 40 degrees.

I'm shivvering just thinking about those ice cold temperatures. What a nightmare!

The weather in Saidia is NOT nice all year - that is FACT.

You also fail to mention the wind factor.

Basically, ask anyone round here and they'll tell you SAIDIA is only nice around August.......

[dogbox]

Microclimate guys. A common feature of coastal locations

Yes Biglog its not built yet, thats why Im paying a lot less than the folk will once they can touch it, see it.

Investing is all about unknowns, it isnt a scientific formula you know otherwise every fund manager out there would always get good results

You sit it out on the sidelines while the adventurours amongst us suck and it and see.

Mankind has never progressed by sitting it out. People once laughed at others who claimed another continent existed in the West Atlantic.

Good job early UK pioneers didnt sit around WAITING FOR THINGS TO HAPPEN otherwise we would still be living in caves.

Basically, ask anyone round here and they'll tell you SAIDIA is only nice around August.......

Jeeze, and there was I thinking Barcello and Hilton Hotels knew a bit about tourism.