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BillyShears

Too Expensive To Have Children

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News report on GMTV now. Young people deciding not to have children or having far fewer than before. Reason: too expensive.

Anybody want to deny that high house prices are ruining the future of this country?

Edit: Did they even mention high house prices? I'm not sure. It's early.

Billy Shears

Edited by BillyShears

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The w*nk*rs have NOT read out emails and text messages concerning "the expense of raising a child". They read out lots on lasers to burn away fat.

They're repeating the news item about children being too expensive now. NO MENTION OF HOUSE PRICES OR MORTGAGES AT ALL!!! They only mention childcare and clothing costs. Clothing costs for children are high are they? At least there's an option. You can buy children's clothes for 50p each in charity shops or for a few quid each in Primark if need be. Where do families get their cut-price housing from?

Here's the link to email gmtv.

http://www.gm.tv/index.cfm?articleid=678

Billy Shears

Edited by BillyShears

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Anybody want to deny that high house prices are ruining the future of this country?

Well I would say, in that repsect, that high house prices are enhancing the country. In future, this lack of children will translate to a lack of adults... which will translate to reduced road congesion, reduced carbon emmissions, reduced unemployment and reduced demand for housing so that there'll be more buyer choice. In fact, judging by the amount of washing machine and dishwasher usage I witnessed during a few days' stay with some friends who have two children, I'd say the power-consumption reduction, and subsequent lessening in demand for energy brought about by there being less children, will be immediate.

Personally I don't want children. I want to commit my life to other personal goals. And gues what? The cost of living, and the cost of achieving these goals, makes them a non-starter too... but while it's popular to tell sob-stories of the wannachild franternity, the rest of us, as usual, go unnoticed.

Edited by Bingley Bloke

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Bingley Bloke has a point. Unpopular as it is to say anything against rugrats there's a strong argument that human civilisation must become more sustainable fast and a smaller population is a good step towards that.

Also, with the level of automation we have today we don't really need as many workers as in the past (hence high level of unemployment and government make-work). So broken growth-based economics aside, it should be feasible to get through the initial population-reduction phase involving more older people.

At the same time having kids does, inexplicably, seem to be something that a lot of people want to do so I suppose it'll be hard on them.

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Well I would say, in that repsect, that high house prices are enhancing the country. In future, this lack of children will translate to a lack of adults... which will translate to reduced road congesion, reduced carbon emmissions, reduced unemployment and reduced demand for housing so that there'll be more buyer choice. In fact, judging by the amount of washing machine and dishwasher usage I witnessed during a few days' stay with some friends who have two children, I'd say the power-consumption reduction, and subsequent lessening in demand for energy brought about by there being less children, will be immediate.

Personally I don't want children. I want to commit my life to other personal goals. And gues what? The cost of living, and the cost of achieving these goals, makes them a non-starter too... but while it's popular to tell sob-stories of the wannachild franternity, the rest of us, as usual, go unnoticed.

My main point in this thread is appalling journalism that deliberately misses the point of why young people cannot have children. Whether having children is a good thing or not should be a topic for another thread. I can say that I think that a lowered population is important, but this is something that needs to be done gradually, or there will be the potential of huge social problems in a massively imbalanced population. But I'm concerned that I feel that there is an important point in GMTV not mentioning house prices, and that this will be lost if the thread goes in another direction.

Knowing your posting history I can trust that you're not one of these people that automatically discounts any argument that is against HPI being a good and wonderous thing. Perhaps you could start another thread talking about what people want out of life and the effect of high house prices. I'd contribute to it if you did. Similarly if you start a thread on the advisability of people having children.

Billy Shears

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My main point in this thread is appalling journalism that deliberately misses the point of why young people cannot have children. Whether having children is a good thing or not should be a topic for another thread. I can say that I think that a lowered population is important, but this is something that needs to be done gradually, or there will be the potential of huge social problems in a massively imbalanced population. But I'm concerned that I feel that there is an important point in GMTV not mentioning house prices, and that this will be lost if the thread goes in another direction.

Knowing your posting history I can trust that you're not one of these people that automatically discounts any argument that is against HPI being a good and wonderous thing. Perhaps you could start another thread talking about what people want out of life and the effect of high house prices. I'd contribute to it if you did. Similarly if you start a thread on the advisability of people having children.

Billy Shears

I think BB was specifically replying to your equating reduction in numbers of children to ruining the future of the country, and pointing out potential upsides to the above.

But yes, clearly you are right, housing costs dominate most young peoples' budgets and prevent it being financially comfortable to have kids. I know several couples of a childbearing sort of age and wanting kids who are putting it off for financial reasons. And these would be better than average paid people.

OTOH I also have friends who had a kid straight out of college (it was an accident and the woman involved had thought she could never have them, so basically not having it was out of the question). They manage fine. They rent a small apartment and don't have a car or a flash lifestyle but they get by and are happy. Another couple I know had twins in their early 20s, and again managed OK, though without home-ownership or car. It can be done if you're not obsessed with having a semi-d and a people carrier and 2 weeks holiday a year.

The fact that the story didn't mention housing costs specifically means they're piss-poor journalists alright, or just didn't get terribly deep into the story, but it's been mentioned before by other news sources. These days the 'young couples can't afford kids' story is filler fluff, it's nothing new or exciting, and doesn't seem to particularly shock anyone.

And there are other factors in play too, childcare is shockingly expensive too, and energy costs going up massively.

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In future, this lack of children will translate to a lack of adults... which will translate to reduced road congesion, reduced carbon emmissions, reduced unemployment and reduced demand for housing so that there'll be more buyer choice.

Instead of hardworking UK couples having kids, we have immigrants instead. And they have LOTS of kids.

I would agree that high house prices are ruining the country - and its one of the reasons I'd be so cautious about taking out a 25year mortgage on a place here - whats the country going to be like when Ive finished paying it off?... dread to think.

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News report on GMTV now. Young people deciding not to have children or having far fewer than before. Reason: too expensive.

Anybody want to deny that high house prices are ruining the future of this country?

Edit: Did they even mention high house prices? I'm not sure. It's early.

Billy Shears

I don't think that the type of young people who have children probably choose to have them, or even think to much about it other than how much they can get off the state to fund their own workless lives.

The uneducated have children without considering any costs.

These people certainly wouldn't consider house prices as they'll be living rent free in some sheltered housing association scheme learning from home watching "Trisha" and breeding more anti social mini me's to terrorise your neighbourhood.

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I think the current consumerism, live for today & me me me attitude is more to blame. If people would spend less of their income on travel, eating out, fashion accessories & consumer electronics, they'd have their deposit & be able to move onto the stage of their lives where they choose to have kids.

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From the people I was at school with (now 34), I can fairly easily split them into three groups

1) Those that had kids straight out of school. Usually several of them, often by different mothers/fathers over the next 10 years or so.

2) Those that got married in their mid 20s (usually about 2/3 years after leaving uni) and had a couple of kids within 3/4 years of that.

3) Those who either haven't got married or got married late 20s/early 30s - most have absolutely no desire to have kids, those that do think they'll have one (and only one) in a few years.

To my mind, group 1 never really experienced life without kids. Group 2 had a bit of a party at uni and then 'settled down'. Everyone else did something more with their lives and now thinks 'I have a good life, travel around the world, eat out in restaurants, save for retirement, I enjoy it, what the hell do I want kids for if it means giving up all the things I like doing?'

I've been told that I'm 'selfish' for not wanting kids. Well, it's a hell of a lot less selfish than those that have kids and try to have everything else too, and end up with screwed up kids in the process.

I think people in their early 30s and younger have a chance to see now that the 'path to the middle-class' that has existed since the end of WWII is now broken, and to avoid committing themselves to lifelong debt in an attempt to grab the old ideal. Unfortunatley I think a lot of people, particularly those now 35 to 45, haven't been able or had the chance to see this, and are in for a world of financial hurt over the next few years.

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I think the current consumerism, live for today & me me me attitude is more to blame. If people would spend less of their income on travel, eating out, fashion accessories & consumer electronics, they'd have their deposit & be able to move onto the stage of their lives where they choose to have kids.

Ah the old 'can't afford a house cos you spent all your money on iPods' argument, I thought we'd debunked this long ago?

For the price of a crappy house in a crack infested sink estate where I am, I could travel the world for 15 years solidly, doing a fair amount of eating out and purchasing fashion accessories along the way. Last time I looked I definitely didn't have that amount of stamps in my passport :(

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too posh to push

too selfish to havew children

the end of the human race as we know it

history books will write "humans became extinct because they were too self indugent to breed"

And who will write the books?

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too posh to push

too selfish to havew children

the end of the human race as we know it

history books will write "humans became extinct because they were too self indugent to breed"

The world has 6 billion people, growing fast. Because a few million of them in the west decide not to have kids, the human race is doomed? Wow.

Future world historians won't even notice the blip of childless people in the early 21st century in the UK.

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ok he brits and yanks become extinct, then asians want to copy western lifestyle, extinct eventually, then the africans rule the earth for a bit

use your imagination!

Edited by notanewmember

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I think the current consumerism, live for today & me me me attitude is more to blame. If people would spend less of their income on travel, eating out, fashion accessories & consumer electronics, they'd have their deposit & be able to move onto the stage of their lives where they choose to have kids.

These selfish people - imagine not wanting to give up freedom, travel to interesting places, good food, meeting people of different cultures? Why wouldn't they want to just stay in every evening and watch other people doing them on the telly because they haven't got the money or time anymore? Why don't they want to give up the work they enjoy (you know, that pays the taxes and maybe makes the world a better place for everyone), or pay 75% of the second salary to a childminder? Why don't they want to get themselves indebted so their employer knows they have to be grateful for the job he gives them, and why don't they want to be tied to one geographical location when the modern world of employment is all short-term contracts and mobility? Imagine not wanting to spend all their money on kids instead of saving for retirement when it's clear state pensions for all will keep OAPs in caviar when they retire!

I say again 'The traditional post-WWII path of the middle-class is broken'. If you're not well on that path already, you'll kill yourself trying to follow it. Don't try to force other people to follow your path when you don't wear their shoes - that's truly selfish.

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News report on GMTV now. Young people deciding not to have children or having far fewer than before. Reason: too expensive.

Anybody want to deny that high house prices are ruining the future of this country?

Edit: Did they even mention high house prices? I'm not sure. It's early.

Billy Shears

So. in an overpopulated world, and a very overpopulated country, HPI is helping things? Pity houses aren't too expensive in Africa and Asia.

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You can hardly draw a comparison between third world and here. Lack of access to contraception and education (meaning less choice regarding fertility and life options generally) and radically different economics (kids as means of support in old age and kids as breadwinners from early age) mean it's comparing chalk with cheese.

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These selfish people - imagine not wanting to give up freedom, travel to interesting places, good food, meeting people of different cultures? Why wouldn't they want to just stay in every evening and watch other people doing them on the telly because they haven't got the money or time anymore? Why don't they want to give up the work they enjoy (you know, that pays the taxes and maybe makes the world a better place for everyone), or pay 75% of the second salary to a childminder? Why don't they want to get themselves indebted so their employer knows they have to be grateful for the job he gives them, and why don't they want to be tied to one geographical location when the modern world of employment is all short-term contracts and mobility? Imagine not wanting to spend all their money on kids instead of saving for retirement when it's clear state pensions for all will keep OAPs in caviar when they retire!

I say again 'The traditional post-WWII path of the middle-class is broken'. If you're not well on that path already, you'll kill yourself trying to follow it. Don't try to force other people to follow your path when you don't wear their shoes - that's truly selfish.

From a father to what I guess is a non-father:

You would never understand the joy of parenthood until you had your own little monsters running around, taking up your time, breaking your things (yesterday I had to remove the front of my TV & wash off some green dye that had been splashed on it) and generally ruining your day.

The reward of course is when their little hearts pour out in honest comments that show you how much they appreciate you.

You need your own kids before you realise how unimportant the consumerist things you mentioned are.

Edited by Time to raise the rents.

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The "Miracle Economy" has fostered a culture of greed and materialism that is for sure. I hope the extra 500 debt counselors that Gordon has hired to help the CAB cope with the debt crisis has to turn into 5000 so that the point is driven home to him: HPI/MEW is destroying this country.

Our hope is that the coming IR rises worldwide will destroy Gordon's "Miracle Economy" and after the crash perhaps we can return to some better values.

:angry:

Edited by Realistbear

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Not everyone does like kids though.

What if you have them and find out you're one of those? Not like you can bring them back. Plenty of people don't have kids given the choice. Plenty of our parents wouldn't have had if given choice. Plenty of them probably regretted it on some level.

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From a father to what I guess is a non-father:

You would never understand the joy of parenthood until you had your own little monsters running around, taking up your time, breaking your things (yesterday I had to remove the front of my TV & wash off some green dye that had been splashed on it) and generally ruining your day.

The reward of course is when their little hearts pour out in honest comments that show you how much they appreciate you.

You need your own kids before you realise how unimportant the consumerist things you mentioned are.

I recently had a GodSquad member tell me in a pitying and patronising voice how sad it was that I didn't understand the joy of accepting Jesus into my heart, and that they would pray for me that I may see the light.

That was about as insulting as when someone says 'Oh you just don't understand the joy of kids, how selfish you are!'

Why do parents insist on telling others how incomplete their lives are because they are child-free? Is this a misery-loves-company thing and it's all a big con?

What about the parent-friends I know that tell me, when they've had a few pints, that they're not cut out for being a parent and if they could go back they'd not have them?

What if I'm infertile because of illness? Does that mean I am allowed to be consume? Or should I just slit my wrists now knowing my life is meaningless without procreating?

Why can't those with kids cut the holier-than-thou attitude and let others make their own decisions in life?

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I recently had a GodSquad member tell me in a pitying and patronising voice how sad it was that I didn't understand the joy of accepting Jesus into my heart, and that they would pray for me that I may see the light.

That was about as insulting as when someone says 'Oh you just don't understand the joy of kids, how selfish you are!'

Why do parents insist on telling others how incomplete their lives are because they are child-free? Is this a misery-loves-company thing and it's all a big con?

What about the parent-friends I know that tell me, when they've had a few pints, that they're not cut out for being a parent and if they could go back they'd not have them?

What if I'm infertile because of illness? Does that mean I am allowed to be consume? Or should I just slit my wrists now knowing my life is meaningless without procreating?

Why can't those with kids cut the holier-than-thou attitude and let others make their own decisions in life?

Yes, I wonder if the Muslims do a better job: Obey Alla or die!

Seriously though, anything we do not believe in can be very insulting. Tell a true blue Tory that he ought to embrace Socialism and see what reaction you get.

Point is that free choice is something we own and no one should try to take it away from us. For the Christian expressing a belief that you ought to believe in Jesus is simply their view of freedom of choice to express that view. Good thing you have the free will to just say no-Well done! At least you were not sent to the local Mullah to have your head separated from your body. I think God only wants volunteers anyway.

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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