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teddyboy

Can Lr Figures Be Manipulated?

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Oh by the way, I was NO WAY implying from the sub-heading that Father Fred has done this BTW :)

Are the LR figures being manipulated? Or can they be?

EG: Is it possible that DODGY EA 'Robin B'stard' could sell a property for £128,000 and then 'chop-chop' the figures that were put into the Land Registry? The reason I ask is below, but I do recall on the Whistleblower programme that they were botching the prices of properties after they had sold and (I presume) had not gone to the the LR yet.

They were trying to justify to the surveyor that they had sold properties in the price range that they were over-valuing them at. Just look at the figures. It tells you a few things:

1) Its amazing the difference in the price for the same flats (£116,796>£185,350)

DIFFERENCE OF £68,554!!!!! I presume these are similar flats as I dont know the properties.

2) How stupid some people are

and 3) There are some STRANGE figures there? Data courtesy of www.ourproperty.co.uk

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-107...pa_n=1&tr_t=buy

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-565...pa_n=1&tr_t=buy

10/11/2005 25 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £144,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

10/11/2005 54 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £139,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* Established Property

08/11/2005 48 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £129,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

05/11/2005 15 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £126,286

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

04/11/2005 1 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £116,796

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

04/11/2005 45 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £143,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

28/10/2005 8 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £120,446

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

28/10/2005 52 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £168,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

27/10/2005 9 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £163,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

26/10/2005 4 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £118,986

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

26/10/2005 3 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £131,396

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

30/09/2005 51 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £147,595

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

16/09/2005 49 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £146,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

09/09/2005 46 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £156,312

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

02/09/2005 44 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £174,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

02/09/2005 53 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £183,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

26/08/2005 47 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £177,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

25/08/2005 50 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £170,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

28/07/2005 19 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £162,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

09/07/2005 33 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £165,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

01/07/2005 22 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £162,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

01/07/2005 42 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £143,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

01/07/2005 32 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £162,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

01/07/2005 26 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £163,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

01/07/2005 30 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £165,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

01/07/2005 23 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £149,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

01/07/2005 31 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £151,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

01/07/2005 24 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £155,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

01/07/2005 28 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £157,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

01/07/2005 27 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £160,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

30/06/2005 18 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £145,795

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

30/06/2005 20 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £157,620

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

30/06/2005 29 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £157,695

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

17/06/2005 35 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £174,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

27/05/2005 36 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £142,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

27/05/2005 41 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £185,350

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

27/05/2005 34 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £157,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

27/05/2005 37 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £159,995

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

27/05/2005 39 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £161,765

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

23/05/2005 40 Lentworth Court, Liverpool, Merseyside, L17 6GD £168,765

* Flat

* Leasehold

* New Build

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Guest 40Something failure

Forgot to ask TB...

What d'you reckon to all the take over at Anfield?

Liverpool should consider signing this guy btw...

Keep an eye on him in the forthcoming WC. Group of Death though, could be tricky...

Who actually cares who takes over at Anfield? ....what are you Whoops, the new Alan Hanson...Or Saint and Greavsie rolled into one? Stick to HPC, please mate! Well, actually, you know bugger all about HPC..only tired little pathetic meanderings....probably better, whoops, to talk about football! Only joking mate! Or am I? You tosser

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Who actually cares who takes over at Anfield? ....what are you Whoops, the new Alan Hanson...Or Saint and Greavsie rolled into one? Stick to HPC, please mate! Well, actually, you know bugger all about HPC..only tired little pathetic meanderings....probably better, whoops, to talk about football! Only joking mate! Or am I? You tosser

Handbags at dawn boys,christ we really must be getting tired of waiting for the hpc that we have to resort to such personal attacks,i always wondered how it must be to be able to trade insults with the cloak of anonimity, pretty sad i imagine..................

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I'm certain LR figures aren't "manipulated" as such, but there are plenty of ways in which LR figures are skewed and don't reflect the true state of the market:

- Lag (most obviously), but this is only natural and not really a criticism

- They only represent the A-stock houses that are still selling

- Builders throw in "freebies" like deposit, stamp duty and fittings. This is not insignificant

- The housing stock has improved, with lots of houses having extensions etc built, so it is not a like-for-like reflection on the same housing stock as, say 5 or 10 years ago

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Also when a house appears [in isolation] to have sold for half it's last recorded value of a year or two ago. This is usually one partner who wishes to retain the property, buying out the other partner after a relationship break up.

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LR Figures aren't explicitly manipulated as someone else has pointed out because they are based on Stamp Duty submissions, and this is generally made by the buyer or the buyers solicitor.

When you look in isolation on a postcode and type of property however, the sample size isn't big enough to be meaningful and this can produce bizzare results. The type of flat can vary from Studio to Penthouse, and in a quarter where there is a predominance of one type of property it will obviously skew the average price. In my postcode (SW17 7 if you want to check) the average price of a flat went from £212,571 (51 Properties) in Jul - Sep 2005 to £258,148 (36 Properties) in Oct to Dec 2005. There's absolutely no way this represents the average rise in property prices in that postcode, it's more of an indicator of the size and quality of flats that sold in each respective quarter.

Specifically looking at the properties you've listed, they are all from the same development, but they will be by no means identical flats.

For example, the two links you posted, one is a 2 bed and the other is a 3 bed.

In developments like this there will be generally a range from 1 bed up as they make best use of the space available. They are also sometimes forced to make some flats "affordable" by their planning consent.

Additionally, where something like a view is a consideration, exactly the same flats on different floors can vary in price massively. I.e. A 2 bed on the ground floor will be much cheaper than an identical flat on the top floor which will also benefit from not having noise from above.

Factors such as whether one side of the development overlooks a busy road or railway will obviously also have an effect.

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LR Figures aren't explicitly manipulated as someone else has pointed out because they are based on Stamp Duty submissions, and this is generally made by the buyer or the buyers solicitor.

When you look in isolation on a postcode and type of property however, the sample size isn't big enough to be meaningful and this can produce bizzare results. The type of flat can vary from Studio to Penthouse, and in a quarter where there is a predominance of one type of property it will obviously skew the average price. In my postcode (SW17 7 if you want to check) the average price of a flat went from £212,571 (51 Properties) in Jul - Sep 2005 to £258,148 (36 Properties) in Oct to Dec 2005. There's absolutely no way this represents the average rise in property prices in that postcode, it's more of an indicator of the size and quality of flats that sold in each respective quarter.

Specifically looking at the properties you've listed, they are all from the same development, but they will be by no means identical flats.

For example, the two links you posted, one is a 2 bed and the other is a 3 bed.

In developments like this there will be generally a range from 1 bed up as they make best use of the space available. They are also sometimes forced to make some flats "affordable" by their planning consent.

Additionally, where something like a view is a consideration, exactly the same flats on different floors can vary in price massively. I.e. A 2 bed on the ground floor will be much cheaper than an identical flat on the top floor which will also benefit from not having noise from above.

Factors such as whether one side of the development overlooks a busy road or railway will obviously also have an effect.

spot on.

also some might appear very cheap (or cheaper than most of the rest). this could be entirely legit if it is a small private company and the two directors buy a couple each at well below market value.

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Guest The_Oldie

Some sales seem take a very long time to appear in the LR figures. Could it be that some EAs/Solicitors are taking their time to submit details of a sale to the authorities? This could distort the figures if properties sold for a low price were deliberately held back so that the low figure will not reach the system for another few months.

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With new builds they can be and are manipulated via the use of cashbacks and freebies given bye the seller e.g. buy this house for 180K, we will give you 20K back.

LR figure goes down as 180K. Real price of house to the buyer = 160K.

It's happening all the time now.

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With new builds they can be and are manipulated via the use of cashbacks and freebies given bye the seller e.g. buy this house for 180K, we will give you 20K back.

LR figure goes down as 180K. Real price of house to the buyer = 160K.

It's happening all the time now.

It can work the other way:

"Buy my house for £255k, but we'll call it £249k for the house and £6k Fixtures and Fittings". This keeps the LR number below £250k and hence in the 1% SD bracket.

Don't know whether the two would cancel each other out, but that goes on a lot as well.

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My, my, if it isn't The Dudee himself...

How's thing's Dudee!? Not too good by the sounds of it. :lol:

NOTE: For those that are unaware, there used to be a weirdo that posted here, called 'The Dude'. I say weirdo, more like the sort that goes home especially to beat up the wife and kids, after a bad day at the office.

I'm glad that I still play such a major roll in your life Dudee, hope you haven't missed me too much?

40Somethingfailure hey? The name suits you btw and is a darn sight better than that long, girly hair and goatie you used to sport.

Don't be a stranger and watch out for that debt. It can ruin your life you know? Not to mention your sanity...

And The Dud was also a midget she-male if I remember correctly? :D

Edited by Scooter

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Forgot to ask TB...

What d'you reckon to all the take over at Anfield?

Liverpool should consider signing this guy btw...

Keep an eye on him in the forthcoming WC. Group of Death though, could be tricky...

I will answer this and then continue on the main topic.

I would love to see investment at Anfield. Spanish contingent is good for wider European recognition, although I do believe that being European Champions did a lot for our profile. However, I would not like the Moores family to be bought out.

The Moores family have Liverpool in their blood. I dont just mean football.

John Moores University which is now 10-15% of the city centre.

Littlewoods Pools (no longer going I think).

Littlewoods shops (Now closed in Liverpool)

Index catalgue shop (Believe its been sold on)

The city owes the Moores family a lot and I strongly believe that they have a RIGHT to be part of the football club.

The player you point to I can't comment as I know nothing of him, but I will certainly look into it. Mark Gonzales btw is supposed to be a bit special ;)

Quoted by Oldie:

Some sales seem take a very long time to appear in the LR figures. Could it be that some EAs/Solicitors are taking their time to submit details of a sale to the authorities? This could distort the figures if properties sold for a low price were deliberately held back so that the low figure will not reach the system for another few months.

Nice one oldie! This was another view I had. I have spoke to people at www.ourproperty.co.uk and they tell me that it can take up to 6 months to publish the figures. I was told that there was no LEGAL obligation to pass on the data, thats why some are missing. Surely this cant be right????

Lastly, I was not suggesting they were being manipulated I just found some of the registered figures a bit strange :blink: the theory of cashback deals rings true but surely this is 'botching' the figures??

thanks for all your replies

TB

Edited by teddyboy

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Guest Charlie The Tramp

I enquired of the LR why when checking registers I often find Price Not Stated and received this reply. I am aware of three properties where this was the case and know they were straight forward sales. That reason does not appear in their reply. I am suspicious that a degree of privacy may be requested by solicitors on the price paid but that is just a guess on my part.

There are a number of reasons why we may not have entered the price paid for a property on the register, the main reason being if the information would be misleading.

E.g. if a leaseholder purchases the freehold of his property for £500, this is clearly not the value of the property.

Also, if there is a transfer of a part share of a property e.g. breakdown of marriage and one partner buys out the others share, this would not be a true reflection of the value of the property.

We do not hold any statistics of the number of properties on which the price paid information is not stated.

Regards,

Another interesting point are leasehold sales shown as I have just checked on my FTB home and the new freeholder is shown as the owner from 1997 and new 99 year leases were issued after the owner had purchased the leases on the two properties which were leasehold but no record of the new lease holder or price paid.

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Yes indeed. Well remembered...

I have heard much the same. Was disappointed to find that he hadn't received his work permit in time as I was hoping to add him to a couple of my fantasy football teams.

Still, there is always next season, assuming his permit has finally come through.

It will come through as he has spent enough time in Spain to be a spanish national. He will get granted immediately as part of the EU :)

Oh yeah houses..... cant be arsed discussing them ;)

TB

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With new builds they can be and are manipulated via the use of cashbacks and freebies given bye the seller e.g. buy this house for 180K, we will give you 20K back.

LR figure goes down as 180K. Real price of house to the buyer = 160K.

It's happening all the time now.

Long thread on this here, Barratts giving 15% off, but stamp duty and LR use the original asking price.

http://www.singingpig.co.uk/forums/thread/108599.aspx

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Long thread on this here, Barratts giving 15% off, but stamp duty and LR use the original asking price.

http://www.singingpig.co.uk/forums/thread/108599.aspx

That's wrong surely? :unsure:

I thought stamp duty was calculated on the actual price paid at completion, so any reduction in selling price will be reflected in the amount of stamp duty paid and the price reflected to the LR...

If there is a cash back deal and the bung is paid AFTER completion - then the LR will log the original price...

Edit: Now I've read the thread. Great input Dr Bubb. This is a real tale of woe. Sounds as though the woman as been totally stitched up by Barratts. Tw@ts.

Edited by Badlad1967

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      • down 5% +
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