Sue Gray Report - In Full.

[fellow]

2 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

Did any of those others MAKE the rules they broke? We were assured that Sturgeon was just fiddling around the edges in Scotland and that Westminster was driving the rules! Were their breaches systemic i.e. every Friday (Wineday!)? Have they been given fixed penalties? etc. etc.

In no way is it "exactly" the same.

Sturgeon set the rules for Scotland and Drakeford set the rules for Wales. Although Starmer didn't make the rules, he voted for them and was calling for stricter restrictions at almost every point. Who knows how often the others actually broke the rules as we only know about the times they were actually caught out on video. Everything that happed in downing street just happened to have been easily recorded / monitored.

Again, I am not a Boris supporter but, to put this into context, he received one fixed penalty notice for standing in a room (in his own place of residence) for 10 minutes with people he was already working with (and therefore in a bubble with) To think this is any of the police's business is pretty ludicrous if you think about it. I agree that lying about it was unacceptable but he barely did anything wrong anyway.

Labour on the other hand arranged an actual party at 22:00 with 20+ people at a non work venue and blatantly lied that they were working but the left bizarrely claim this isn't as bad. Again, I really don't care about the rule breaking, just the hypocrisy.

It's amazing how the left seem to think rule breaking from people they agree with politically is acceptable whereas people they happen to despise must resign. I have noticed most of the outrage comes mainly from the remainers so this must be all down to the fact Boris implemented BREXIT and getting rid of him is their only chance to reverse it.

[miguel]

Yes officer, I did break the speed limit but I only did it for a minute or so. I think we should forget about it. 

[byron78]

7 minutes ago, fellow said:

Sturgeon set the rules for Scotland and Drakeford set the rules for Wales. Although Starmer didn't make the rules, he voted for them and was calling for stricter restrictions at almost every point. Who knows how often the others actually broke the rules as we only know about the times they were actually caught out on video. Everything that happed in downing street just happened to have been easily recorded / monitored.

Again, I am not a Boris supporter but, to put this into context, he received one fixed penalty notice for standing in a room (in his own place of residence) for 10 minutes with people he was already working with (and therefore in a bubble with) To think this is any of the police's business is pretty ludicrous if you think about it. I agree that lying about it was unacceptable but he barely did anything wrong anyway.

Labour on the other hand arranged an actual party at 22:00 with 20+ people at a non work venue and blatantly lied that they were working but the left bizarrely claim this isn't as bad. Again, I really don't care about the rule breaking, just the hypocrisy.

It's amazing how the left seem to think rule breaking from people they agree with politically is acceptable whereas people they happen to despise must resign. I have noticed most of the outrage comes mainly from the remainers so this must be all down to the fact Boris implemented BREXIT and getting rid of him is their only chance to reverse it.

Oh dear.

You might need some help getting all that wool out of your eyes.

Edited May 26, 2022 by byron78

[byron78]

1 hour ago, Bruce Banner said:

Is there any level on which BJ is not totally unsuitable to lead the country?

From what I can see, hardcore Leavers still need his lies.

I can't understand why (as Boris is almost singlehandedly derailing Brexit with this incompetent government) but I honestly don't think most are very bright.

[fellow]

6 minutes ago, miguel said:

Yes officer, I did break the speed limit but I only did it for a minute or so. I think we should forget about it. 

Haha that actually happened to me and I was let off by the police. However, this is a false comparison as Boris actually did receive the full punishment of the law by receiving a fixed penalty notice for this minor offence.

[fellow]

10 minutes ago, byron78 said:

Oh dear.

You might need some help getting all that wool out of your eyes.

Yep, political debates always descend into personal insults once you have made a reasoned and logical point. I must make a note to stop commenting on these political threads and stick to the economy.

[Bruce Banner]

It's beyond me how people think they can defend the indefensible yet retain their own integrity, but they do .

[byron78]

6 minutes ago, fellow said:

Yep, political debates always descend into personal insults once you have made a reasoned and logical point. I must make a note to stop commenting on these political threads and stick to the economy.

The problem is it's all hot air now isn't it? At best idealistic. At worst, made up claptrap.

Name 3 things that have got better for you and most folks under Boris (or in fact us Tories since 2010)?

Bet you can't and won't.

Edited May 26, 2022 by byron78

[fellow]

9 minutes ago, byron78 said:

The problem is it's all hot air now isn't it? At best idealistic. At worst, made up claptrap.

Name 3 things that have got better for you and most folks under Boris (or in fact us Tories since 2010)?

Bet you can't and won't.

No, I agree I can't. This was my whole point that we should be attacking the Government for the stuff that is actually affecting our lives rather than focusing so much on on this crap. So what if Boris goes because of this as he will just be replaced by someone else in the party with the same failed policies.

I would love nothing more than for this Government to be removed and replaced with an actual conservative government with conservative policies but such a thing does not exist at the moment.

Secretly, Boris must be loving this as it is distracting everyone from the real issues.

Edited May 26, 2022 by fellow

[AThirdWay]

27 minutes ago, fellow said:

Sturgeon set the rules for Scotland and Drakeford set the rules for Wales. Although Starmer didn't make the rules, he voted for them and was calling for stricter restrictions at almost every point. Who knows how often the others actually broke the rules as we only know about the times they were actually caught out on video. Everything that happed in downing street just happened to have been easily recorded / monitored.

Again, I am not a Boris supporter but, to put this into context, he received one fixed penalty notice for standing in a room (in his own place of residence) for 10 minutes with people he was already working with (and therefore in a bubble with) To think this is any of the police's business is pretty ludicrous if you think about it. I agree that lying about it was unacceptable but he barely did anything wrong anyway.

Labour on the other hand arranged an actual party at 22:00 with 20+ people at a non work venue and blatantly lied that they were working but the left bizarrely claim this isn't as bad. Again, I really don't care about the rule breaking, just the hypocrisy.

It's amazing how the left seem to think rule breaking from people they agree with politically is acceptable whereas people they happen to despise must resign. I have noticed most of the outrage comes mainly from the remainers so this must be all down to the fact Boris implemented BREXIT and getting rid of him is their only chance to reverse it.

So were these breaches by the other leaders systemic, were the persons in question issued with a fixed penalty? No, and the events are not comparable. It's rumoured that the pics in Grays report were taken by the official # 10 photographer! Btw, do you think Scots and Welsh are unable to use camera phones? Nothing goes by without someone recording it nowadays. 

Every Friday there was a party in # 10, Johnston was well aware of this. He lives in the same building ffs!

[Bruce Banner]

3 minutes ago, byron78 said:

The problem is it's all hot air now isn't it? At best idealistic. At worst, made up claptrap.

Name 3 things that have got better for you and most folks under Boris (or in fact us Tories since 2010)?

Bet you can't and won't.

The "Tories" since 2010 have been a poor caricature of the NuLabour copy of real Tories.

Cameron lost my lifetime Tory support when he reneged on his election manifesto.

May was not a liar, but that's about the only positive thing about her.

BJ is unfit for office, pure and simple.

[AThirdWay]

1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said:

The "Tories" since 2010 have been a poor caricature of the NuLabour copy of real Tories.

Cameron lost my lifetime Tory support when he reneged on his election manifesto.

May was not a liar, but that's about the only positive thing about her.

BJ is unfit for office, pure and simple.

Agreed, you can't really get a fag paper between labour and the tories, so it's down to the integrity of the individuals then. In what reality does Johnston come out on top in that comparison? 

At least in Scotland we have an alternative, but even the SNP are slipping in several areas. Their saving grace is that they are the least worst option, better than labour or the tories!

[byron78]

3 minutes ago, fellow said:

No, I agree I can't. This was my whole point that we should be attacking the Government for the stuff that is actually affecting our lives rather than focusing so much on on this crap. So what if Boris goes because of this as he will just be replaced by someone else in the party with the same failed policies.

I would love nothing more than for this Government to be removed and replaced with an actual conservative government with conservative policies but such a thing does not exist at the moment.

Secretly, Boris must be loving this as it is distracting everyone from the real issues.

I still don't think Boris sees this as a distraction. All the efforts to smear others and cover it all up simply don't tally with that view to me.

But I quite agree with you though. I would love a proper conservative government again.

 

 

This lot are just trouble though. Don't care what colour tie they wear. 

They're not Tories. It's like someone has dumped a super corrupt Italian admin on the UK. Just awful.

[byron78]

12 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

The "Tories" since 2010 have been a poor caricature of the NuLabour copy of real Tories.

Cameron lost my lifetime Tory support when he reneged on his election manifesto.

May was not a liar, but that's about the only positive thing about her.

BJ is unfit for office, pure and simple.

I think May was honest but a bit lost.

Especially given the fact I honestly don't she was alive to the Tory Party being captured by Russian oligarchs on one side and weird libertarian American types who simply wanted to get in on the NHS gravy train and lobby away our rights etc.

It's all still "greed is good". Which is just stupid. Because a lot of money now isn't controlled by particularly nice people or states. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by byron78

[Will!]

Peston doesn't pull his punches.

Quote

Which points to the huge unspoken question in every line of Gray's opus: why didn't those with the authority to break up or ban the illegal parties, namely the cabinet secretary Case and the prime minister, even once break up a single one?

And given the revealed rottenness of the culture at the apex of the government, why is this failure not a resigning issue for either the cabinet secretary or the prime minister?

Gray is explicit that although everyone who attended the parties was at fault, "senior leadership at the centre, both political and official, must bear responsibility", because "some of the more junior civil servants believed that their involvement in some of these events was permitted given the attendance of senior leaders".

The prime minister's principal private secretary Martin Reynolds said in a WhatsApp after the bring-your-own-booze garden party: "We seem to have got away with it".

 

[scottbeard]

3 hours ago, Bruce Banner said:

The "Tories" since 2010 have been a poor caricature of the NuLabour copy of real Tories.

Cameron lost my lifetime Tory support when he reneged on his election manifesto.

May was not a liar, but that's about the only positive thing about her.

BJ is unfit for office, pure and simple.

Which bit was that , just out of interest?

[byron78]

4 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

Which bit was that , just out of interest?

Pretty much all of it as I remember!

The 2006/07 manifestos and internal Tory policy documents are still the ones if anyone wants a laugh.

Page after page of "we must free the banks and the market more - further deregulations, harder and faster!"

I'm guessing most are now actively supressed they're so embarrassing!

 

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by byron78

[msi]

4 hours ago, fellow said:

Sturgeon set the rules for Scotland and Drakeford set the rules for Wales. Although Starmer didn't make the rules, he voted for them and was calling for stricter restrictions at almost every point.

Strugeon and Drakeford are irrelevant for Sue Gray. 

You admit Starmer 'didn't make the rules'....can you guess who did...?   Clue:  Same person who broke them.

Whether he wanted them stricter or not is irrelevant - do you follow the rule that was made or not.

Quote

Who knows how often the others actually broke the rules as we only know about the times they were actually caught out on video. Everything that happed in downing street just happened to have been easily recorded / monitored.

Whataboutism and deflection.  What is known is Boris was investigated and found guilty and refused to resign. Starmer is currently being investigated, and has stated he will resign if found guilty.

Quote

Again, I am not a Boris supporter but, to put this into context, he received one fixed penalty notice for standing in a room (in his own place of residence) for 10 minutes with people he was already working with (and therefore in a bubble with) To think this is any of the police's business is pretty ludicrous if you think about it.

Ludicrous to you but I think you are showing your own bias. That's ok but lets not pretend you are putting any sort of neutral objectivity here, eh?

Quote

I agree that lying about it was unacceptable but he barely did anything wrong anyway.

Whether '...he barely did anything wrong..' is your opinion and you've shown that you aren't going to be objective (which is ok so long as you accept that is what you are).

The accepted tradition for lying to Parliament is to Resign.  Even coming close to it should result in a formal correction and apology.  Starmer has repeatedly come back to Parliament and corrected himself when he misunderstood even minor facts. 

Quote

Labour on the other hand arranged an actual party at 22:00 with 20+ people at a non work venue and blatantly lied that they were working but the left bizarrely claim this isn't as bad.

Can I use the Tory excuse of  "We must wait for the Police to finish their investigation....".  Since you've shown your lack of objectivity,  what facts you choose and how you want to interpret them are your choice and only important to you.   

What is known and is publicly agreed is Starmer said he will resign if found guilty.

Quote

Again, I really don't care about the rule breaking, just the hypocrisy.

I gave you the definition of hypocrisy in an earlier reply.  Again, please show me Labours hypocrisy and how that is manifestly in excess of the Tories?  If you feel like it's hyprocrisy, that's fine but lets separate what you want to feel in your world view and what is objective, eh?

Quote

It's amazing how the left seem to think rule breaking from people they agree with politically is acceptable whereas people they happen to despise must resign. I have noticed most of the outrage comes mainly from the remainers so this must be all down to the fact Boris implemented BREXIT and getting rid of him is their only chance to reverse it.

You admitted to Boris lying, above and I told you what the precedent demands of that.

I also told you Starmer said he will resign if found guilty of a 'minor' (as you called it) FPN - That's holding both to account.

 

On the other hand, you said  Labour  'blatantly lied' and of '..hypocrisy..' whilst Boris is guilty but you think he '...barely did anything wrong ...' 

 

That's shows more your preferred bias than any objective reading of the situation.

 

You haven't dropped to name calling or insults, so I  respond in kind and I don't lump you in with the moronic ToryFanBoyz.  We simply agree to disagree on points of objectivity.  Nothing in my response above had any relation to Br*xit, so I find that disappointing you come out with it.

 

 

 

 

[winkie]

 

[Bruce Banner]

1 hour ago, scottbeard said:

Which bit was that , just out of interest?

Conservative-Party-Manifesto-2010.pdf (general-election-2010.co.uk)

One thing is clear. We can’t go on with the old model of an economy built on debt. Irresponsible public spending, an overblown banking sector, and unsustainable consumer borrowing on the back of a housing bubble were the features of an age of irresponsibility that left Britain badly exposed to the economic crisis. Now, with the national debt already doubled and in danger of doubling again, it is this debt – together with the jobs tax that Labour will introduce to help pay for it – that threatens to kill the recover

[msi]

Just now, Bruce Banner said:

Conservative-Party-Manifesto-2010.pdf (general-election-2010.co.uk)

One thing is clear. We can’t go on with the old model of an economy built on debt. Irresponsible public spending, an overblown banking sector, and unsustainable consumer borrowing on the back of a housing bubble were the features of an age of irresponsibility that left Britain badly exposed to the economic crisis. Now, with the national debt already doubled and in danger of doubling again, it is this debt – together with the jobs tax that Labour will introduce to help pay for it – that threatens to kill the recover

hahahaha comedy gold

 

Interestingly Labours 'Job Tax' that the Tories derided was an NI hike.  Lucky Boris didn't do that

Oh wait...

 

hahahahaha more comedy gold

 

[Bruce Banner]

And another one...

London politics latest LIVE: Stephen Hammond joins Tory MPs calling for Boris Johnson to quit | Evening Standard

[Staffsknot]

For those fans of Conservative low tax / small state / Not Labour spend please see the £15bn saving private Johnson just cost you.

Good things can happen for the wrong reasons, but to save his skin he abandoned you to do it.

[Will!]

6 hours ago, Bruce Banner said:

It's beyond me how people think they can defend the indefensible yet retain their own integrity, but they do .

I remember reading a piece by former Conservative MP Matthew Parris in the 1990s in the Independent.  John Major was having trouble with his Maastricht rebels and various pundits were lamenting why-oh-why Major didn't get tough / be conciliatory / explain his position / arbitrarily put a few heads on pikes etc.

Parris explained that to understand the Conservative Party in Parliament it was necessary to understand the four 'Ps':  No Person, no Policy, no Principle is more important than Power.

Boris Johnson will remain leader until someone else looks like a better prospect for retaining (or regaining) power.

[Timm]

1 minute ago, Will! said:

I remember reading a piece by former Conservative MP Matthew Parris in the 1990s in the Independent.  John Major was having trouble with his Maastricht rebels and various pundits were lamenting why-oh-why Major didn't get tough / be conciliatory / explain his position / arbitrarily put a few heads on pikes etc.

Parris explained that to understand the Conservative Party in Parliament it was necessary to understand the four 'Ps':  No Person, no Policy, no Principle is more important than Power.

Boris Johnson will remain leader until someone else looks like a better prospect for retaining (or regaining) power.

Is it just me that suspects that Boris has some Ps of his own?

Np Party, no Parliament..