Your education

[PeanutButter]

My next question is, which system encourages greater resilience? (Resilience having been identified as more valuable than IQ in achieving success.)

Edited May 8, 2022 by PeanutButter

[Gurgle]

2 hours ago, Insane said:

Lol.

This is the weird thing all those years of working towards exams and no one ever asked to see proof. I was only asked once so glad I had not lied and had the certificates. However I have met many people who left school with no qualifications but have put  " O" and "A" levels on their CV's obtained the jobs they went after and never got asked for proof.

One guy I knew was working on a building site as a Labourer he was at the bus stop one night coming home from work it was winter and he was sick to death of his job. In the window of the employment agency next to the bus stop there was a job for a recent school leaver in Commercial Banking. For a laugh he decided to apply, they asked for 5 " O" levels he said he had 7 when in fact he had just 1. He got the job at the end of his probation they asked to see his exam results. He put his hands up and admitted the truth , they said well you are capable so we will keep you on , but if you want to do your Banking Exams you will have to go to night school and get X amount of "O" levels. Which he did. I remember being about 18 or 19 most of us were taking home a third of what he was earning. 

It really does make a mockery out of the whole thing.  Are companies more likely to check exam results today than they were in the past ?  

I distinctly remember my dad coming home and telling us he’d fired a new starter (who’d been recommended by head office) because they had lied about having a degree.  He contacted the university he claimed to have a degree from and they’d never heard of him.  The guy was totally qualified for the job regardless of the degree but it was the dishonesty he couldn’t accept.

[Gurgle]

1 hour ago, Nick Cash said:

Never been asked. Never had a job that needed my bog standard 2:2. First job out of university I was trained by a bloke from my year at grammar school who’d left after O Levels. I was on a graduate entry scheme, 2 years on he’d had 1 promotion. I’d had several. His manager reported to me.

And was he actually less capable ?  

[Insane]

10 minutes ago, Gurgle said:

I distinctly remember my dad coming home and telling us he’d fired a new starter (who’d been recommended by head office) because they had lied about having a degree.

Did they ask for a degree ? 

11 minutes ago, Gurgle said:

 The guy was totally qualified for the job regardless of the degree but it was the dishonesty he couldn’t accept.

So it was not needed.

I have seen news reports a few times of people being fired and do remember a lady who said she had " A" Levels for a job with the NHS when she was not up to scratch they checked her out finding there were no " A " levels. She was prosecuted and went to Prison. A bit harsh really , surely if they ask for X qualifications why don't they insist people bring them when they attend the interview ? It would stop a lot of hassle. 

[Nick Cash]

24 minutes ago, Gurgle said:

And was he actually less capable ?  

Perfectly capable at training me and perfectly capable at the next level up. I was being fast-tracked as the company had decided they needed more graduate level bods in the senior management positions.

[kingofmanlets]

3 hours ago, gp_ said:

When were you at school? It was not my experience at an (academically very good) independent school in the 80s. It is something that has become a real problem over about the last 20 or 30 years. I was sad to hear from a client who lives in the area that it is now a "hothouse". Results and league tables are all important. Its affected state schools too.

2005-2010. But people adapt quickly and should quickly wake up to the fact that these schools don't offer much more than a good state school does unless their child is exceptionally bright and will receive special attention and opportunities that he or she otherwise wouldn't. The kids who were brilliant at maths or music (or whatever really) actually did get their money's worth because the school would step in and help to guide them to real success. Of course, it helped that they usually found everything else relatively easy too. If you're average (for that band of intelligence), you have to question whether hundreds of thousands of pounds wouldn't be better spent on something else... 

 

[Gurgle]

3 hours ago, Insane said:

Did they ask for a degree ? 

So it was not needed.

I have seen news reports a few times of people being fired and do remember a lady who said she had " A" Levels for a job with the NHS when she was not up to scratch they checked her out finding there were no " A " levels. She was prosecuted and went to Prison. A bit harsh really , surely if they ask for X qualifications why don't they insist people bring them when they attend the interview ? It would stop a lot of hassle. 

Professional engineer so I guess you'd expect a degree but maybe not required if you have the right experience.  It was the dishonesty that lost him the job, not the lack of a degree AFAIK.  I suspect in those days they did actually ask for a degree.  If you're designing heavy machinery you probably want someone properly qualified.

[Gurgle]

2 hours ago, Nick Cash said:

Perfectly capable at training me and perfectly capable at the next level up. I was being fast-tracked as the company had decided they needed more graduate level bods in the senior management positions.

I'd be interested to know if you think the same would happen today.  I would imagine the situation might be slightly different.

[scottbeard]

18 hours ago, Insane said:

Lol.

This is the weird thing all those years of working towards exams and no one ever asked to see proof. I was only asked once so glad I had not lied and had the certificates. However I have met many people who left school with no qualifications but have put  " O" and "A" levels on their CV's obtained the jobs they went after and never got asked for proof.

One guy I knew was working on a building site as a Labourer he was at the bus stop one night coming home from work it was winter and he was sick to death of his job. In the window of the employment agency next to the bus stop there was a job for a recent school leaver in Commercial Banking. For a laugh he decided to apply, they asked for 5 " O" levels he said he had 7 when in fact he had just 1. He got the job at the end of his probation they asked to see his exam results. He put his hands up and admitted the truth , they said well you are capable so we will keep you on , but if you want to do your Banking Exams you will have to go to night school and get X amount of "O" levels. Which he did. I remember being about 18 or 19 most of us were taking home a third of what he was earning. 

It really does make a mockery out of the whole thing.  Are companies more likely to check exam results today than they were in the past ?  

I recall expecting a new graduate to start with us - but when the day came he never showed up. 

I chased with HR and they said he DID show up but the first thing they do on day 1 before they issue you a security pass is show your proof of identity and exam results.  He said his a level results were BBB.  They were actually CDD.  He was asked to leave and never darken our doorstep again. 

So yes, some firms do check. 

[gp_]

 

13 hours ago, kingofmanlets said:

The kids who were brilliant at maths or music (or whatever really) actually did get their money's worth because the school would step in and help to guide them to real success. Of course, it helped that they usually found everything else relatively easy too. If you're average (for that band of intelligence), you have to question whether hundreds of thousands of pounds wouldn't be better spent on something else.

I do not think its good value even for the very talented.

The fees at many schools are so high that you could home educate, pay for one to one tuition in every subject, pay for other facilities a school provides, have more flexibility,  and still have money left over.

A few schools may be worth it for the contacts. Even the most useless Etonian rarely ends up unemployed!

[PeanutButter]

36 minutes ago, gp_ said:

I do not think its good value even for the very talented.

The fees at many schools are so high that you could home educate, pay for one to one tuition in every subject, pay for other facilities a school provides, have more flexibility,  and still have money left over.

A few schools may be worth it for the contacts. Even the most useless Etonian rarely ends up unemployed!

This sounds more time consuming. Might work if one parent doesn't work though. Driving them around to all the extracurricular activities, organising the tutoring schedule etc. And what about socialisation with others of their age? 

[Si1]

10 minutes ago, PeanutButter said:

This sounds more time consuming. Might work if one parent doesn't work though. Driving them around to all the extracurricular activities, organising the tutoring schedule etc. And what about socialisation with others of their age? 

That's absolutely central. I have some dealings with further education, and the kids who were home schooled and then sent to college for A levels are usually f#cked up beyond saving, having long term mental health and coping issues which they will take decades to recover from if ever. You do see some outstanding successes from it, but usually being tied to your mother's apron strings 24/7 until adulthood is a total f#ck up. Also said mother usually has mental issues of her own which is why she is destructively possesive of her offspring in the first place 

[PeanutButter]

Which comes back to my question of building resilience. 

[Si1]

17 hours ago, PeanutButter said:

My next question is, which system encourages greater resilience? (Resilience having been identified as more valuable than IQ in achieving success.)

The official Ofsted position - that is effectively direct govt policy for learning in schools - learning is de facto only and exclusively about recalling facts.

This is obviously ****** but that's what they say in their guidance handbook for education providers.

They even try to impose this on private schools I believe.

It is telling that the chief of Ofsted has no experience working in education. She was formerly a banker with a private education:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36723828

 

 

[Insane]

2 hours ago, scottbeard said:

So yes, some firms do check.

For me it would be common sense for all Firms to check especially if they have advertised a role asking for X Exam Result. 

[Insane]

1 hour ago, PeanutButter said:

And what about socialisation with others of their age? 

I think this is maybe the most important thing of the lot. Children need to mix with others their own age.

I have heard people taking about Toddlers born in the last 3 or 4 years being behind when it comes to mixing with other children as they were locked up for so long during Covid they have not had enough interaction with those outside their home.

For someone to go to Uni at 18 or into the work force must be very strange when you have never left home every day to go to School. 

[Insane]

1 hour ago, Si1 said:

That's absolutely central. I have some dealings with further education, and the kids who were home schooled and then sent to college for A levels are usually f#cked up beyond saving, having long term mental health and coping issues which they will take decades to recover from if ever. You do see some outstanding successes from it, but usually being tied to your mother's apron strings 24/7 until adulthood is a total f#ck up. Also said mother usually has mental issues of her own which is why she is destructively possesive of her offspring in the first place 

+ 1 . 

[Si1]

3 minutes ago, Insane said:

I think this is maybe the most important thing of the lot. Children need to mix with others their own age.

I have heard people taking about Toddlers born in the last 3 or 4 years being behind when it comes to mixing with other children as they were locked up for so long during Covid they have not had enough interaction with those outside their home.

For someone to go to Uni at 18 or into the work force must be very strange when you have never left home every day to go to School. 

I saw a 17 year old girl in formal education for the first time, after home schooling, who used to scream every time more than one person spoke to her at the same time or out of line of sight. She was generally incapable of dealing with everyday human interactions. Severe social anxiety.  Her brain just never developed the circuits for it. 

[Insane]

3 minutes ago, Si1 said:

I saw a 17 year old girl in formal education for the first time, after home schooling, who used to scream every time more than one person spoke to her at the same time or out of line of sight. She was generally incapable of dealing with everyday human interactions. Severe social anxiety.  Her brain just never developed the circuits for it. 

TBH 

I am really surprised that they allow home schooling. I am sure it was illegal when I went to school. There was a kid in the year below me who apparently got some phobia about school and went to a special unit , but he had to go somewhere every day he could not stay at home. When did home schooling become legal or has it always been allowed ?  

[Si1]

8 minutes ago, Insane said:

TBH 

I am really surprised that they allow home schooling. I am sure it was illegal when I went to school. There was a kid in the year below me who apparently got some phobia about school and went to a special unit , but he had to go somewhere every day he could not stay at home. When did home schooling become legal or has it always been allowed ?  

I don't know

It seems to be accepted when the middle classes do it but referred to the social services when working classes do it

[Insane]

5 minutes ago, Si1 said:

I don't know

It seems to be accepted when the middle classes do it but referred to the social services when working classes do it

 

Just looked it up this is what I found. 

In the UK home education as a mass movement began in the late 1970s and began to rise in numbers from the mid 1980s. By this time the growth of home education in the USA began to exert an influence.

For more information about the legalities of home education, visit the Department for Education, Education Otherwise or Home Education UK. The full law is set out in Section 7 of the Education Act 1996.

[Si1]

16 minutes ago, Insane said:

 

Just looked it up this is what I found. 

In the UK home education as a mass movement began in the late 1970s and began to rise in numbers from the mid 1980s. By this time the growth of home education in the USA began to exert an influence.

For more information about the legalities of home education, visit the Department for Education, Education Otherwise or Home Education UK. The full law is set out in Section 7 of the Education Act 1996.

I guess a middle class kid who is emotionally ruined and unemployable but gets ok GCSEs is ok, but a working class kid for whom 'home schooling' means dossing about and doing things on the side ending up as either a successful small business owner, drug dealer or both, is not ok.

[EnglishinWales]

School is indoctrination not education. The populace are effectively indoctrinated and controlled by the mass media already so the govt. is lenient about home education.

[scottbeard]

1 hour ago, Insane said:

I think this is maybe the most important thing of the lot. Children need to mix with others their own age.

I have heard people taking about Toddlers born in the last 3 or 4 years being behind when it comes to mixing with other children as they were locked up for so long during Covid they have not had enough interaction with those outside their home.

For someone to go to Uni at 18 or into the work force must be very strange when you have never left home every day to go to School. 

I had a son born in 2020 lockdown who did take a little while longer than usual to react well to other people, but he seemed ok after a few months

I worry more for teenagers - imagine being locked at home through ages 14-16.  It must have lifelong damage.  

Babies and Toddlers spend 90% of time with their parents anyway, lockdown or none 

[MancTom]

On 05/05/2022 at 10:31, PeanutButter said:

I'm asking this question as an outsider to it all. The British class lines are fascinating. 

I suppose the argument that the kids would be better off having a pot of money doesn't take into account that school fees become a mandatory payment, whereas saving the equivalent would be 'oops we've having a big holiday, no money in the pot this month' - not likely to save the same amount. 

Those privately educated here: are you happy with what happened or prefer to have gone to state school?

not sure what it bought me - the teachers were often awful. e.g a spanish teacher who just carried on his lectures with the kids throwing paper at him all lesson. So you could not learn anything. Quite a number of teachers could not control the kids - you'd think for all that money you would get top notch...

Lots of disruptive kids because the family had money because the father was never at home, too busy earning the cash.

There was the networking, but they made clear it wasn't for the likes of my family who scrimped and saved to get in...

The facilities were very good, thats probably the only advantage over state?