Killed By Credit

[Mags]

That would be just those who actually seek intervention. My observation is that the actual number of folks who "experience" clinical depression sometime in their lives would approach 4/5. Certainly in OZ anyway.

I agree - I think the numbers are actually very, very high.

[dnd]

This guy had a lot of equity, he wasn't anywhere near bankruptcy yet he was being pushed into reposession.

Why wasn't it suggested that he sell the house to try and clear the debts? I really would like to know the answer to that one.

That's a point - there are loads of BMV sharks out there that can shift it in a week...

[Anti_Claus]

Life is generally mundane and sh*t , you just have to lower your expectations to lessen the chances of severe depression.

Or get a few hobbies and friends etc and busy yourself so you don't have to think about it. Come to think of it no wonder DIY was/is so popular.

Edited February 15, 2006 by Anti_Claus

[dinsdale]

It's almost as if the crash is happening right now in slow motion. The drip, drip effect of all the current news from debt to unemployment, and now suicide is almost deja vu.

I remember the horrific story of a factory owner who could not face telling his workforce that the place was shutting down, and they would all soon be unemployed. He killed himself by putting his head under a mechanical press. That was in the early 90's and I still think of that poor man's family.

To be honest my first impulse is envisaging his head being crushed by the press. That's one hell of a way to end it. It takes a fantastic amount of despair or a fantastic amount of bravery to do that.

[dinsdale]

Life is generally mundane and sh*t , you just have to lower your expectations to lessen the chances of severe depression.

On a personal note I take a prozac in the morning, 6 dyhodrocodeine painkillers during the day, an optional 3 cocodamol at night followed by anti depressant amitriptyline (courtesy of mother).

And 70 units of alcohol a week. I earn 35K a year and hardly ever go sick. People do what they have to do to get through the day.

(Edited for incorrect maths)

Edited February 15, 2006 by dinsdale

[The Masked Tulip]

On a personal note I take a prozac in the morning, 6 dyhodrocodeine painkillers during the day, an optional 3 cocodamol at night followed by anti depressant amitriptyline (courtesy of mother).

And a 100 units of alcohol a week. I earn 35K a year and hardly ever go sick. People do what they have to do to get through the day.

You are, IMPO, making a mockery of a man who took his own life out of despair. You are, IMPO, making a mockery of people with depression.

If you were doing what you claim above you would be dead. The medication would have killed you within days as your liver, pancreas and kidneys would have shut down.

I think, IMPO, that you need help if you think that making such statements serves any useful purpose.

[dinsdale]

You are, IMPO, making a mockery of a man who took his own life out of despair. You are, IMPO, making a mockery of people with depression.

If you were doing what you claim above you would be dead. The medication would have killed you within days as your liver, pancreas and kidneys would have shut down.

I think, IMPO, that you need help if you think that making such statements serves any useful purpose.

I am not lying. The prozac, dihydrocodeine and kapake (co-cocodamol) are all prescribed by the doctor. The amitryptaline is my mother's prescription and serves as a sleeping tablet. You would be amazed at how resilient the human body is. I was merely following the tradition of the Chuz in being honest. I don't need your pity.

[thunderbird900]

Masked Tulip, well said. Whilst everyone has a right to their own opinion, (that is the whole point of a forum) some of the comments posted regarding depression and suicide are incredibly cruel and ignorant.

Unlike the "Mash" song, suicide is NOT painless

[The Masked Tulip]

That level of painkillers would kill you - simple as that. The codeine would build up over a period of time, quite rapidly in fact, in your liver and it would simply stop working. The fact that you claim to be drinking 70 units - a unit is a glass of wine, a short or half a pint of beer so you are drinking the equivalent of 35 pints a week or 5 pints a night? - of alcohol a week is also complete and utter nonsense as the cocktail of alcohol and painkillers on your liver would be endgame. Codeine and alcohol has a very detrimental affect on the liver as the liver simply cannot cope with it over any protracted period of time.

That combination of medication and alcohol is the type of thing you see in people who are severely depressed, often homeless and taking such levels of medication in order to end it all. I imagine that there are those who, for whatever reason, are in accute pain and would perhaps take such a drastic cocktail in order to deaden the pain... but surely then Doctors would be prescribing more appropriate and somewhat safer pain control.

If you are genuinely taking such medication then I would suggest you seek out a second or third opinion. However, I doubt you are taking what you say you are taking.

[Mr Blek]

I am not lying. The prozac, dihydrocodeine and kapake (co-cocodamol) are all prescribed by the doctor. The amitryptaline is my mother's prescription and serves as a sleeping tablet. You would be amazed at how resilient the human body is. I was merely following the tradition of the Chuz in being honest. I don't need your pity.

You'd be dead by now. Your liver would have packed up ages ago at that rate.

[Anti_Claus]

On a personal note I take a prozac in the morning, 6 dyhodrocodeine painkillers during the day, an optional 3 cocodamol at night followed by anti depressant amitriptyline (courtesy of mother).

And 70 units of alcohol a week. I earn 35K a year and hardly ever go sick. People do what they have to do to get through the day.

(Edited for incorrect maths)

Just out of interest how long have you been doing this. I tend to suffer depression. Has very little to do with what goes on around me and very odd because I can feel my mood swing in and out of it sometimes with no apparent reason. I don't bother with pills/excess alchol etc, I go the gym instead and try and do other stuff that takes my mind off it. Im sure my method will serve me better in the long run.

You are, IMPO, making a mockery of a man who took his own life out of despair. You are, IMPO, making a mockery of people with depression.

If you were doing what you claim above you would be dead. The medication would have killed you within days as your liver, pancreas and kidneys would have shut down.

I think, IMPO, that you need help if you think that making such statements serves any useful purpose.

I don't think the post makes a mockery but demonstrates possibly the second worst way of coping (assuming it's accurate). The first worst way is what this whole thread is about (would have to distinguish between depression and despair tho).

[BoredTrainBuilder]

Here you go, put a face and some humanity to the object of your sneering posthumous advice.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.a...42618&f=141&h=0

Fair enough to post the link but I think sneering is unfair, life is complex, cruel, crazy, happy and sad. We all have different ways of coping, and humour - including of the blackest type - is just one of those ways.

[dinsdale]

Just out of interest how long have you been doing this. I tend to suffer depression. Has very little to do with what goes on around me and very odd because I can feel my mood swing in and out of it sometimes with no apparent reason. I don't bother with pills/excess alchol etc, I go the gym instead and try and do other stuff that takes my mind off it. Im sure my method will serve me better in the long run.

I don't think the post makes a mockery but demonstrates possibly the second worst way of coping (assuming it's accurate). The first worst way is what this whole thread is about (would have to distinguish between depression and despair tho).

The painkillers - about 8 years. Initially prescribed for suspected pancreatitis - I would say I take 1/3 painkillers for abdominal pain, the rest is pure addiction. Anti-depressants - on and off for 8 years. Prozac, Effexor, Amitryptaline - singly and in combination. Booze - gave up for 7 years but started again in last 4 years. Peaking now at 6 nights a week, bottle of martini/wine and 2/3 cans of lager. I know what you mean about mood swings - feel like I'm continously observing 'my' mood, it has a life of it's own.

[BoredTrainBuilder]

It's almost as if the crash is happening right now in slow motion. The drip, drip effect of all the current news from debt to unemployment, and now suicide is almost deja vu.

I remember the horrific story of a factory owner who could not face telling his workforce that the place was shutting down, and they would all soon be unemployed. He killed himself by putting his head under a mechanical press. That was in the early 90's and I still think of that poor man's family.

Meanwhile the architect of our present economy undergoes a face lift and will soon wash his hands of the whole sorry mess.

Absolutely disgraceful.

It may well be drip drip drip to regular denizens of HPC. But to Joe Punter it's life (and death) as usual.

I doubt the suicide rate is significantly increasing (although I fully accept that debt is sharply and nastily up and this will be a sadly growing problem).

[try2hard]

As a brand new poster, I'm a bit taken aback at some of the comments I've just read!

As I have personal experience of a family member committing suicide, I am appalled at the insensitivity and snide remarks made. There's a difference between being honest and communicating your opinion and being downright arrogant, crass and smug. Please remember this is a real person you are talking about with a family and friends who loved him dearly. No matter what his reasons for taking his life or what your opinions are of this, showing respect costs nothing. Contrary to popular belief, when your life has been affected by a suicide you realise that choosing to end your life takes guts - how many times have you made a decision that you later regretted but have been able to rectify or at least go some way to change things? Making the decision to end your life is the last thing you would ever do as there is no going back, ever.

Working in the financial services industry I would suggest that his insurance company will probably pay out, depending on when he took out the policy. There are sometimes exclusions when it comes to death by suicide but that's normally only in the first couple of years of the policy's life to try to deter people from taking out a policy whilst planning a suicide.

I hope this man's family are able to pull through this horrendous time and that they are able to sort out their financial difficulties in light of what has happened. Yes, he got himself into the debt. Yes, he should have approached the lender or asked for help with his situation. Yes, the Halifax have every right to proceed with repossession if all other avenues have been explored. The truth of the matter is that only he and his family know the extent of his financial problems and I hope those he has left behind are met with some compassion and understanding.

[Mr Blek]

As a brand new poster, I'm a bit taken aback at some of the comments I've just read!

As I have personal experience of a family member committing suicide, I am appalled at the insensitivity and snide remarks made. There's a difference between being honest and communicating your opinion and being downright arrogant, crass and smug. Please remember this is a real person you are talking about with a family and friends who loved him dearly. No matter what his reasons for taking his life or what your opinions are of this, showing respect costs nothing. Contrary to popular belief, when your life has been affected by a suicide you realise that choosing to end your life takes guts - how many times have you made a decision that you later regretted but have been able to rectify or at least go some way to change things? Making the decision to end your life is the last thing you would ever do as there is no going back, ever.

Working in the financial services industry I would suggest that his insurance company will probably pay out, depending on when he took out the policy. There are sometimes exclusions when it comes to death by suicide but that's normally only in the first couple of years of the policy's life to try to deter people from taking out a policy whilst planning a suicide.

I hope this man's family are able to pull through this horrendous time and that they are able to sort out their financial difficulties in light of what has happened. Yes, he got himself into the debt. Yes, he should have approached the lender or asked for help with his situation. Yes, the Halifax have every right to proceed with repossession if all other avenues have been explored. The truth of the matter is that only he and his family know the extent of his financial problems and I hope those he has left behind are met with some compassion and understanding.

Well said.

[Alfie Moon]

Anger, sadness, grief, etc. are not unusual reactions to suicide. Some reactions unfortunately, IMO, are fuelled by the lack of understanding that much of society has about mental health problems and difficulties. There is a dreadful stigma attached to mental health problems/distress and is often interpreted as being due to personal weakness, inadequacy, and so on. However, all of us are likely to experience mental health problems at some point in our lives, although much of society seems to have difficulty in acknowledging this. Many people prefer to think that only some people experience mental health problems and certainly not them. If you said to someone that only a minority of people will experience physical health problems during their 80 odd years of life they would probably say that is absurd and wrong. All of experience numerous physical health problems during our lives from minor cuts and colds up to illnesses that require hospitalisation and operations. Some of us fare better than others which in part can be due to our efforts to look after ourselves but bad luck can strike any of us (e.g. a drunk driver going out of control, rearing up onto the pavement and knocking us down). To get through a life of 80 odd years without physical health problems would require you to be Captain Scarlett. However, many people seem to think that in regard to 'mental health problems' many people are a version of Captain Scarlet (i.e. indestructible). But that is absolute nonsense. As with physical health we can do much to look after our mental health but all of us can be hit by bad luck which is beyond our control. None of us have absolute control over our lives and destinies (you would be a God if you did).

In regard to the man uder discussion in this thread I suspect that although his family may feel some anger towards him their love for him will be far deeper and stronger than any anger they feel. Any one of us has the potential to be unlucky enough to experience a configuration of circumstances whereby we are driven to suicide. Most of us are more lucky than than that.

[Ritters]

I tend to suffer depression. Has very little to do with what goes on around me and very odd because I can feel my mood swing in and out of it sometimes with no apparent reason. I don't bother with pills/excess alchol etc, I go the gym instead and try and do other stuff that takes my mind off it. Im sure my method will serve me better in the long run.

Seconded.

Edited February 17, 2006 by Ritters

[The Masked Tulip]

Contrary to popular belief, when your life has been affected by a suicide you realise that choosing to end your life takes guts

Yes, this is very true. Obviously the general view portrayed is that of a cowardly death but the truth is that when people get to such a point when they consider taking their own life it is actually a very brave thing to do indeed.

Yes, they often leave family and loved ones behind to pick up the pieces and wonder why but the actualy act of taking your own Life is not something that anyone enters into in a cowardly manner.

[Time to raise the rents.]

thats really selfish of him.

I believe the family wont even be able to claim any insurance because its a suicide, he could of atleast made it look like an accident.

I have several life policies myself. They cover against suicide as long as the suicide is more than 1 year after the policy was started.

I would advise anyone to check this in their policy. Imagine having a stable husband or wife, then without telling you, they kill themselves. You're left by their actions, with all of their problems to deal with. It is quite logical to me that a partner should have cover against their partner commiting this act.

[undeservingrich]

If he'd gone bankrupt they wouldn't have been able to touch him surely?

...and he would STILL have kept the house as it would be under court supervision and he has dependent children?

Bankruptcy does not effect a secured creditor's rights.

[Ritters]

Anger, sadness, grief, etc. are not unusual reactions to suicide. Some reactions unfortunately, IMO, are fuelled by the lack of understanding that much of society has about mental health problems and difficulties. There is a dreadful stigma attached to mental health problems/distress and is often interpreted as being due to personal weakness, inadequacy, and so on. However, all of us are likely to experience mental health problems at some point in our lives, although much of society seems to have difficulty in acknowledging this. Many people prefer to think that only some people experience mental health problems and certainly not them. If you said to someone that only a minority of people will experience physical health problems during their 80 odd years of life they would probably say that is absurd and wrong. All of experience numerous physical health problems during our lives from minor cuts and colds up to illnesses that require hospitalisation and operations. Some of us fare better than others which in part can be due to our efforts to look after ourselves but bad luck can strike any of us (e.g. a drunk driver going out of control, rearing up onto the pavement and knocking us down). To get through a life of 80 odd years without physical health problems would require you to be Captain Scarlett. However, many people seem to think that in regard to 'mental health problems' many people are a version of Captain Scarlet (i.e. indestructible). But that is absolute nonsense. As with physical health we can do much to look after our mental health but all of us can be hit by bad luck which is beyond our control. None of us have absolute control over our lives and destinies (you would be a God if you did).

In regard to the man uder discussion in this thread I suspect that although his family may feel some anger towards him their love for him will be far deeper and stronger than any anger they feel. Any one of us has the potential to be unlucky enough to experience a configuration of circumstances whereby we are driven to suicide. Most of us are more lucky than than that.

Well said that man, I esp agree with the second paragraph

Yes, this is very true. Obviously the general view portrayed is that of a cowardly death but the truth is that when people get to such a point when they consider taking their own life it is actually a very brave thing to do indeed.

Yes, they often leave family and loved ones behind to pick up the pieces and wonder why but the actualy act of taking your own Life is not something that anyone enters into in a cowardly manner.

TMT, absolutely spot on there. If only more people in society had the same view. People do it because the pain and despair outweigh the coping resources for dealing with it.

Our friend died on his own battlefield. He was killed in action fighting a civil war. He fought against adversaries that were as real to him as his casket is real to us. They were powerful adversaries. They took toll of his energies and endurance. They exhausted the last vestiges of his courage and his strength. At last these adversaries overwhelmed him. And it appeared that he had lost the war.

But did he?

I see a host of victories that he has won! For one thing, he has won our admiration, because even if he lost the war, we give him credit for his bravery on the battlefield. And we give him credit for the courage and pride and hope that he used as his weapons as long as he could.

We shall remember not his death, but his daily victories gained through his kindness and thoughtfulness, through his love for family and friends, for animals and books and music, for all things beautiful, lovely and honourable.

We shall remember not his last day of defeat, but we shall remember the many days that he was victorious over overwhelming odds. We shall remember not the years we thought he had left, but the intensity with which he lived the years that he had. Only God knows what this child of His suffered in the silent skirmishes that took place in his soul. But our consolation is that God does know, and understands"

Edited February 16, 2006 by Ritters

[since the beginning]

He only owed £5,000 - of course this was the arrears he probably owed £200,000.

What are Halifax supposed to do, in my opinion they need to evict all these people that have got in over their heads and can't pay back their huge debts. Makes me sick, you wouldn't get stories of a family renting and getting evicted because they couldn't afford the rent. I'm sure the papers wouldn't champion my cause if I started renting a property at £1,500 a month and fell behind on my rent and then topped myself.

People commit suicide for many reasons being skint is just one of them. Would it be fairer if anyone that couldn’t afford the stupid debt they have got themselves in to was ‘helped’ out by the Government to pay their mortgage.

The message being sent out by these ridiculous articles is:

a) the only reason he committed suicide was because of his debt - there was bound to be other reasons. I mean he left a wife and kids behind surely they were still worth hanging around for even if that meant go back to living in rented accommodation with them.

That people once they get a mortgage they ‘own’ their houses it is then everyones responsibility i.e. banks, government etc to let them keep their houses by helping them out.

c) That live is no longer worth living if you owned a house but lost it.

d) That people are forced into debt via the evil banks. In reality they have done no research and have taken a huge amount of debt on without thinking about it.

Anyway the story gives a whole new spin on renting is dead money!

[liquid]

...life is complex, cruel, crazy, happy and sad.

This nicely sums up the emotions felt in this thread. It also leads to the question in what context did this man place his purpose in life? Did he take his life because he failed to sustain material gains? It has been suggested that it was an act of courage to end his life. If he had no responsibility other than to himself and that he had the blessings of his family, then perhaps one can agree with this sentiment. However, I fail to see the courage where his final act is to serve gifts of pain and bewilderment to his family and creditors.

It can perhaps be considered a point of strength to remain aloof from the phenomena of debt driven suicide, or come to that, any media announcements that demonstrate the bereft nature of humanity (one only has to look to the latest abominations of abu ghrabi abuse). Perhaps however it is more a signal to care and love those that are in the proximity of your circle.

Here’s a debate, which I do not condone, that supports suicide:

http://ashbusstop.org/std.html

Here’s some perverse dark humour for those that find it helps:

http://www.evilgerald.com/Issues/Issue5/story5.htm

Perhaps, this is the start of a fashionable trend!

[Killer Bunny]

thats really selfish of him.

I believe the family wont even be able to claim any insurance because its a suicide, he could of atleast made it look like an accident.

My understanding is that suicide within 12 months of establishing the policy might invalidate the plan but normally will pay out after this period.

This is tragic. £5,000 FFS! Why that's less than TTRTR spends on subsidising his tenants. Of course TTRTR you wouldn't do that, we know - buy low, good location (I believe Kirsty agrees), etc I mean the other BTLers who bought in the last 3-4 years.