Rivers of 5hit

[FANG]

Water companies all over the UK allowing sewage to overflow causing contamination.

No reinvestment as profits plundered by shareholders

Boss of English water firm fined over sewage says he would swim in rivers | Water | The Guardian

Apparently they were still dumping waste at 60 locations along the west coast. 

[Si1]

A modern wastewater system has two components - a runoff water network and a foul-water network. The runoff network drains either directly into natural water systems or via soak pools, the latter is to reduce flash flood-potential. The foul water system goes through sewage works to treat the waste and leave solid residue that is buried, incinerated or used as fertiliser; and really pretty clean water which is OK to allow into the natural water system, but you might not want to drink it. In those systems there's no reason to randomly dump sewage into rivers, ever really.

 

However the UK doesn't have that system for the most part. We have much older 19th century combined drainage systems which take both runoff and foul water in the same pipes. They go into a sewage works but in the event of a rainstorm far too much water is flowing through the system and it has to be allowed to drain into the river as the volume flow is too much to go into the sewage works. You could fix this by investing in more sewer water storage to cope with storm events, or replace large parts of the sewerage systems.

 

Also since the financial crisis and/or the 2010 GE (and the collapse of the public sector mega economy of Brown), with economic austerity, there's way way less money going into environmental management by the govt. This is evidenced with a fraction of the jobs in environmental fields being advertised - literally hundreds a month before 2010 and a few a month after it. Basic fact is that with less public money to spend do people want (1) jobs, (2) education for their kids (3) healthcare or (4) clean rivers - delete one. 

 

Fact is that whilst a clean environment is nice it is a lower priority compared to some more fundamental human needs.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Si1

[byron78]

There's a shortage of the cleaning chemicals because of Brexit in many areas. 

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

How do shareholders plunder profits?

[FANG]

17 minutes ago, Si1 said:

A modern wastewater system has two components - a runoff water network and a foul-water network. The runoff network drains either directly into natural water systems or via soak pools, the latter is to reduce flash flood-potential. The foul water system goes through sewage works to treat the waste and leave solid residue that is buried or used as fertiliser; and really pretty clean water which is OK to allow into the natural water system, but you might not want to drink it. In those systems there's no reason to randomly dump sewage into rivers, ever really.

 

However the UK doesn't have that system for the most part. We have much older 19th century combined drainage systems which take both runoff and foul water in the same pipes. They go into a sewage works but in the event of a rainstorm far too much water is flowing through the system and it has to be allowed to drain into the river as the volume flow is too much to go into the sewage works.

 

Also since the financial crisis and/or the 2010 GE (and the collapse of the public sector mega economy of Brown), with economic austerity, there's way way less money going into environmental management by the govt. This is evidenced with a fraction of the jobs in environmental fields being advertised - literally hundreds a month before 2010 and a few a month after it. Basic fact is that with less public money to spend do people want (1) jobs, (2) education for their kids (3) healthcare or (4) clean rivers - delete one. 

 

Fact is that whilst a clean environment is nice it is a lower priority compared to some more fundamental environmental needs.

Surely they are all related as when a contaminated river overflows the effluent can flood the streets and homes. We are heading for a major environmental health risk.

These privatised companies are only interested in profit not reinvestment in infrastructure. 

 

 

 

     

[Saving For a Space Ship]

We spoke to the brilliantly articulate @Feargal_Sharkey, the most effective rivers campaigner in the UK (and a hero from my teenage years).

The story he has to tell will make your jaw hit the floor. Part of

 

https://twitter.com/i/status/1451083476699131915

[Si1]

15 minutes ago, FANG said:

Surely they are all related as when a contaminated river overflows the effluent can flood the streets and homes. We are heading for a major environmental health risk.

well, streets and homes aren't commonly the lowest drainage point in the landscape, rivers are by default.

 

and the amount of sh1t is pretty watered down; if you see a river at the top of its banks 6-12 hours after a heavy storm then you probably don't realise the high concentration of sewage in it, and it's probably hardly visible if at all; it's bad for the biology of the river and means you'll have less fish etc in it; also some of the pollution might hang around meaning you don't really want to swim in it either on a non-flood day; the vision of rivers of poo going through peoples' homes is a bit far fetched; if a river floods, even if it's got sewage in it, I don't think the sewage is as big an issue as the mechanical and water damage caused by the flood. Although of course if a built up living area is flooded then the sewer may well back up out of toilets etc into peoples' homes, which obviously can't be very nice.

But you have a point nonetheless, at some point people will begin to feel that perhaps environmental management is worth investing in. People like a clean common environment, it's part of a 1st world standard of living. Rivers with poos in them are not really part of that.

15 minutes ago, FANG said:

These privatised companies are only interested in profit not reinvestment in infrastructure. 

     

well yeah. but something like environmental infrastructure is a public good for which there is not profit in it for the private firms - the govt COULD force their hands with legislation which would have to be paid for somehow - probably with much much higher water bills or from extra taxation then paid to the water companies to achieve certain environmental aims; either way the consumer will pay.

Yeah they are only after private profit but they are private firms so they're no going to be after much else.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Si1

[Timm]

2 hours ago, Si1 said:

A modern wastewater system has two components - a runoff water network and a foul-water network. The runoff network drains either directly into natural water systems or via soak pools, the latter is to reduce flash flood-potential. The foul water system goes through sewage works to treat the waste and leave solid residue that is buried or used as fertiliser; and really pretty clean water which is OK to allow into the natural water system, but you might not want to drink it. In those systems there's no reason to randomly dump sewage into rivers, ever really.

 

However the UK doesn't have that system for the most part. We have much older 19th century combined drainage systems which take both runoff and foul water in the same pipes. They go into a sewage works but in the event of a rainstorm far too much water is flowing through the system and it has to be allowed to drain into the river as the volume flow is too much to go into the sewage works.

 

Also since the financial crisis and/or the 2010 GE (and the collapse of the public sector mega economy of Brown), with economic austerity, there's way way less money going into environmental management by the govt. This is evidenced with a fraction of the jobs in environmental fields being advertised - literally hundreds a month before 2010 and a few a month after it. Basic fact is that with less public money to spend do people want (1) jobs, (2) education for their kids (3) healthcare or (4) clean rivers - delete one. 

 

Fact is that whilst a clean environment is nice it is a lower priority compared to some more fundamental environmental needs.

Nailed it.

There's not much point in continuing this thread, when the go-to reference work crops up in the second post.

[Si1]

7 minutes ago, Timm said:

Nailed it.

There's not much point in continuing this thread, when the go-to reference work crops up in the second post.

why thankyou, dude

[Timm]

44 minutes ago, Si1 said:

why thankyou, dude

No problem!

It might be worth mentioning that I have no expert knowledge in this field, but I work alongside people who do, and they say the same as you.

[onlooker]

9 hours ago, Si1 said:

why thankyou, dude

Is this problem due just to the fact that most of our sewers are Victorian?

I am currently involved in refurbishing a large building erected by volunteers 20 years ago. We have discovered the surface water directed into the waste sewer because that was the easiest thing to do. We will be  correcting it, but I wondered whether newbuilds often have the same feature if the drainage works were never properly inspected.

[bodgittandscarper]

32 minutes ago, onlooker said:

Is this problem due just to the fact that most of our sewers are Victorian?

I am currently involved in refurbishing a large building erected by volunteers 20 years ago. We have discovered the surface water directed into the waste sewer because that was the easiest thing to do. We will be  correcting it, but I wondered whether newbuilds often have the same feature if the drainage works were never properly inspected.

I can't speak for newbuilds as I don't get involved in that kind of shite work (site work, geddit?) But on bespoke new builds it's a mega no-no, only allowable in exceptional circumstances and with hefty extra rates paid to the water board. I don't know any building inspector who would sign off on it. I don't think it would happen on shit new builds simply because they are built en mass and as part of the planning process these days provision has to be made for surface water. That's an extra cost on an individual basis (dig soakaway etc), but really easy on a shitbox estate. All you do is dig a bund in the middle somewhere and landscape it it with those shitty knee height sawn rails. You've all driven past those, surely? They are the 'attenuation ponds'- and the developers sell them as green space!

 

In repair works, I'd say it's fairly rare for me to find storm outlets connected to the sewer network. However, I only get calls about storm drains that no longer work, and it's almost invariably a bodge of an 80's 'soakaway' consisting of a load of bricks dumped in the ground and buried, which provide f all of a void compared to a proper built chamber or milk crate system. They also silt up easily as terram wasn't really available back then as far as I can work out.

 

So it's very plausible that a lot of older storm drainage does indeed go straight into the sewers- and until something goes wrong (which is rare on Victorian engineering) you wouldn't know about it.

 

Hell, I know of a property where the sewage drains just fine, but no sceptic tank is known of and nobody has ever been able to trace it!

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

16 hours ago, byron78 said:

There's a shortage of the cleaning chemicals because of Brexit in many areas. 

I always knew Brexit stank of sh1t.

Now Brexiters will have to eat their own sandwich.

[kzb]

I'd certainly say the carbon zero budget should be partially diverted into this area.  There's nothing we can do about climate change, so the best option for spending money is storm /flood resilience and security of water supply.

 

[Si1]

4 hours ago, kzb said:

I'd certainly say the carbon zero budget should be partially diverted into this area.  There's nothing we can do about climate change, so the best option for spending money is storm /flood resilience and security of water supply.

 

Yeah I can't see developing countries not using all the fossil fuels. Not least because the West hasn't exactly set a good example over the last century or so. So if you have to spend money on something then sadly you need to spend it on physical resilience.

 

[kzb]

21 hours ago, Si1 said:

Yeah I can't see developing countries not using all the fossil fuels. Not least because the West hasn't exactly set a good example over the last century or so. So if you have to spend money on something then sadly you need to spend it on physical resilience.

 

It's quite obvious COP 26 will be all about extortion.  They all want paying to limit emissions using the excuse above.  The world's biggest emitter will not even be present.  Their recent statements make it clear they have no intention of cutting emissions; security of supply comes first.

Even if by some miracle emissions are cut, climate change is still baked in for the next several decades.   Even if you don't believe the models which say this, sea level is still increasing without any help from us, as we come out of the little ice age.

It all points to diverting budgets from carbon zero to flood defences, dredging, clearing the ditches, upgrading surface drainage etc etc.

[FANG]

Here's a list of every MP who just voted to ALLOW water companies to continue dumping RAW SEWAGE in our rivers - Evolve Politics

[sexton]

On 21/10/2021 at 20:44, FANG said:

Surely they are all related as when a contaminated river overflows the effluent can flood the streets and homes. We are heading for a major environmental health risk.

These privatised companies are only interested in profit not reinvestment in infrastructure. 

 

 

 

     

Educate yourself.

https://www.southernwater.co.uk/Media/Default/images/3060_PortsmouthHavant_WWT_v4.pdf

[Will!]

Duplicate.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Will!

[Will!]

On 21/10/2021 at 19:17, Si1 said:

A modern wastewater system has two components - a runoff water network and a foul-water network. The runoff network drains either directly into natural water systems or via soak pools, the latter is to reduce flash flood-potential. The foul water system goes through sewage works to treat the waste and leave solid residue that is buried, incinerated or used as fertiliser; and really pretty clean water which is OK to allow into the natural water system, but you might not want to drink it. In those systems there's no reason to randomly dump sewage into rivers, ever really.

 

However the UK doesn't have that system for the most part. We have much older 19th century combined drainage systems which take both runoff and foul water in the same pipes. They go into a sewage works but in the event of a rainstorm far too much water is flowing through the system and it has to be allowed to drain into the river as the volume flow is too much to go into the sewage works. You could fix this by investing in more sewer water storage to cope with storm events, or replace large parts of the sewerage systems.

 

Also since the financial crisis and/or the 2010 GE (and the collapse of the public sector mega economy of Brown), with economic austerity, there's way way less money going into environmental management by the govt. This is evidenced with a fraction of the jobs in environmental fields being advertised - literally hundreds a month before 2010 and a few a month after it. Basic fact is that with less public money to spend do people want (1) jobs, (2) education for their kids (3) healthcare or (4) clean rivers - delete one. 

 

Fact is that whilst a clean environment is nice it is a lower priority compared to some more fundamental human needs.

Great post, thanks.

I've recently become a bit more interested in this because it's happening in my localilty.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/16/southern-water-sewage-destroying-protected-chichester-harbour

[onlooker]

OTOH we are encouraged to use and waste less water. Toilets are now low flush and white goods are designed to use far less water. In ‘high’ Summer is there a risk of the sewage network clogging up? I only ask because the inspection pit outside my house frequently stinks when there has been no rain for weeks, and three times in the last year has been blocked and overflowed.

[FANG]

2 hours ago, sexton said:

Educate yourself.

https://www.southernwater.co.uk/Media/Default/images/3060_PortsmouthHavant_WWT_v4.pdf

And what are the other area's doing. I really look forward to your updates as you seem to be the authority on this.

Why do this if Southern water have upgraded their system

Outrage as Southern Water dump sewage in 57 south coast places including Worthing and Hastings - SussexLive

Edited October 24, 2021 by FANG

[coypondboy]

yep saw a fella swimming at sandbanks on friday the water looked disgustingly cloudy.  I was there 2 days earlier on a calm day and the water was crystal clear.  The heavy rain on wednesday night allowed the sewage to be drained into the sea.  Same thing happened in July with lifeguards closing off the beaches for 3 days.  Heatwave hit after that many people swam in the sea and lots reported vomiting and rashes.

https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19487169.swimmer-calls-investigation-avon-beach-sea-water/

[kzb]

3 hours ago, onlooker said:

OTOH we are encouraged to use and waste less water. Toilets are now low flush and white goods are designed to use far less water. In ‘high’ Summer is there a risk of the sewage network clogging up? I only ask because the inspection pit outside my house frequently stinks when there has been no rain for weeks, and three times in the last year has been blocked and overflowed.

No expert, but it seems reasonable to think the lower the flow in the sewerage pipes the more likely are blockages.  One place I worked intentionally had the roof drainage going into the sewer to keep the flow up.

There can hardly be a water shortage when water companies close reservoirs and build on them, surely.

[sexton]

5 hours ago, FANG said:

And what are the other area's doing. I really look forward to your updates as you seem to be the authority on this.

Why do this if Southern water have upgraded their system

Outrage as Southern Water dump sewage in 57 south coast places including Worthing and Hastings - SussexLive

South west water. "Maintaining these assets involves a lot of work and a lot of expertise and we spend in excess of £100m every year doing just that."

I suppose they could spend more but then everyone would be complaining about their "unnafordable" bills.

My water bill is nearly twice the average UK bill. New pipes and only 7000 people to pay for them.