An interesting answer to Nimbies

[iamnumerate]

I wouldn't post it all as it would break the paywall.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/nimbys-vs-millionaires-english-village-war1/

However in this village some people want to build new homes - and provide facilities at the same time

This bit made me smile

Quote

A lady who spoke without identifying herself told the meeting, ‘As parents, how will you explain to your children that you have taken these green spaces away from them so you can build houses?’

Martin Bellamy calmly replied: ‘You could also ask, how will you explain to children that there are no houses that they can afford to buy in the future?’

Although I suppose some would say that the problem is only caused by interest rates and we don't need to build new houses.

(I do think low interest rates are part of the problem but we do need more homes).

 

This bit is very depressing

Quote

‘I’ve got four kids all grown-up, wanting to get on to the property ladder and start families. I know how hard it is to find affordable homes for young people. They would all love to buy here, but our village infrastructure can’t support any more properties.’

They don't have any infrastructure it is just a row of houses on a road and a village hall!

[Riedquat]

Just the usual bleating to justify further ongoing destruction and create a worse future thanks to more building. If you're going for the "how do you explain there are no houses you can afford?" line you need to point at all the stupidity that's pushed prices up - low interest rates, buy to let snapping up a lot of the low end of the market, utterly irresponsible attitudes to population growth, that sort of thing. What you don't do is try to justify ongoing vandalism.

[iamnumerate]

2 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Just the usual bleating to justify further ongoing destruction and create a worse future thanks to more building. If you're going for the "how do you explain there are no houses you can afford?" line you need to point at all the stupidity that's pushed prices up - low interest rates, buy to let snapping up a lot of the low end of the market, utterly irresponsible attitudes to population growth, that sort of thing. What you don't do is try to justify ongoing vandalism.

True but the people who wanted to build the housing can't stop any of those.

Even if all these policies stopped tomorrow we would still need some new housing.

[Riedquat]

23 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

True but the people who wanted to build the housing can't stop any of those.

Even if all these policies stopped tomorrow we would still need some new housing.

Which is why I've said often enough that a one-off level of building is acceptable as a necessary evil, but it has to go hand in hand with not engaging in a process of not requiring an everlasting increase (and in the long term reversing this).

[Si1]

1 minute ago, Riedquat said:

Which is why I've said often enough that a one-off level of building is acceptable as a necessary evil, but it has to go hand in hand with not engaging in a process of not requiring an everlasting increase (and in the long term reversing this).

that could have been a temporary situation as population has peaked before falling in the long term...

[iamnumerate]

8 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Which is why I've said often enough that a one-off level of building is acceptable as a necessary evil, but it has to go hand in hand with not engaging in a process of not requiring an everlasting increase (and in the long term reversing this).

I wouldn't disagree with this.  

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, Si1 said:

that could have been a temporary situation as population has peaked before falling in the long term...

If efforts aren't made to prevent that from happening, and don't under-estimate the chances of that happening. How often are population declines anywhere, or the possibility of them, described as anything other than a negative? Short-termist economic outlooks demand constant population growth and to hell with any other consequences, they don't matter to those pushing for it.

In any case you can bet that if we were undergoing population decline right now interest rates would quickly drop strongly negative to help keep those house prices up there.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Riedquat

[iamnumerate]

16 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

If efforts aren't made to prevent that from happening, and don't under-estimate the chances of that happening. How often are population declines anywhere, or the possibility of them, described as anything other than a negative? Short-termist economic outlooks demand constant population growth and to hell with any other consequences, they don't matter to those pushing for it.

In any case you can bet that if we were undergoing population decline right now interest rates would quickly drop strongly negative to help keep those house prices up there.

I think it is more that it is very difficult to reduce immigration which causes population growth because a) people want to come here b) trying to stop it results in being called racist.

 

[Si1]

4 hours ago, Riedquat said:

If efforts aren't made to prevent that from happening, and don't under-estimate the chances of that happening. How often are population declines anywhere, or the possibility of them, described as anything other than a negative? Short-termist economic outlooks demand constant population growth and to hell with any other consequences, they don't matter to those pushing for it.

In any case you can bet that if we were undergoing population decline right now interest rates would quickly drop strongly negative to help keep those house prices up there.

no interest rates might go up because there'd be less future productive capacity which would boost future inflation expectations

do you actually think low interest rates are a wholly artificial phenomenon?

[Riedquat]

22 minutes ago, Si1 said:

no interest rates might go up because there'd be less future productive capacity which would boost future inflation expectations

do you actually think low interest rates are a wholly artificial phenomenon?

Well they only change when human beings deliberately change them rather than being a natural law of the universe, so they're artificial from that perspective, but if you put that aside no, but you can't deny there's a large chunk of policy and intent involved in their levels. If the desire to keep house prices high outweighs that inflationary concern they'll go down; it's not as if the decision is made based on a single variable.

[btd1981]

Anybody with more kids than required for population sustainment should quietly accept whatever housing development levels are required to satisfy their selfishness, and forfeit their rights to complain.

[iamnumerate]

39 minutes ago, btd1981 said:

Anybody with more kids than required for population sustainment should quietly accept whatever housing development levels are required to satisfy their selfishness, and forfeit their rights to complain.

+1000 

[Wayward]

2 hours ago, btd1981 said:

Anybody with more kids than required for population sustainment should quietly accept whatever housing development levels are required to satisfy their selfishness, and forfeit their rights to complain.

Likewise for anyone that hasn't actively campaigned against high immigration. They have No right to complain against new housing development. 

[Si1]

4 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Well they only change when human beings deliberately change them rather than being a natural law of the universe

Err. No.

4 hours ago, Riedquat said:

 

 

 

 

so they're artificial from that perspective, but if you put that aside no, but you can't deny there's a large chunk of policy and intent involved in their levels. If the desire to keep house prices high outweighs that inflationary concern they'll go down; it's not as if the decision is made based on a single variable.

 

[robson1111]

and when the new houses get built people here will say - badly built - too small - too expensive - will never sell etc

[Riedquat]

12 hours ago, Si1 said:

Err. No.

Er, yes, otherwise you're trying to claim that interest rates are something like the time of high tide. They are set by human beings. In response to what the current situation is, and you can predict likely outcomes from different rates in different situations to a degree, but that's no different from any other decision any person makes.

[Riedquat]

15 hours ago, btd1981 said:

Anybody with more kids than required for population sustainment should quietly accept whatever housing development levels are required to satisfy their selfishness, and forfeit their rights to complain.

That sounds fair enough but other people still end up with the results of that selfishness.

[Si1]

1 hour ago, Riedquat said:

Er, yes, otherwise you're trying to claim that interest rates are something like the time of high tide.

No

1 hour ago, Riedquat said:

They are set by human beings. In response to what the current situation is, and you can predict likely outcomes from different rates in different situations to a degree, but that's no different from any other decision any person makes.

Sort of. But the natural interest rate is still a thing.

[Riedquat]

55 minutes ago, Si1 said:

No

Well yes, because that's the sort of effect I'd describe as natural.

Quote

Sort of. But the natural interest rate is still a thing.

Only in a"because people behave like this then if you want to achieve that you need to do this" way; you could make a similar argument about building roads being natural.

[markyh]

20 hours ago, btd1981 said:

Anybody with more kids than required for population sustainment should quietly accept whatever housing development levels are required to satisfy their selfishness, and forfeit their rights to complain.

Agree, we only had 2 kids for a reason.