Scouting for Petrol........................

[markyh]

15 hours ago, Horseradish said:

Also North London. Friend had messaged Friday evening saying "lol, now we have no fuel" or somesuch, so I went to fill up and they closed the station by the time I had 😐. There was so little fuel left in the tanks underneath that the vapour was coming out of some of the pumps; looked like smoke.

Ahhhh, electric car family, blissful life, fill up at home, we are now enter Uber smug **** territory. 

[shlomo]

11 minutes ago, btd1981 said:

You'd like to think every Muppet that wants to panic buy has a full car by now? If so this should blow over quite soon, unless they've spent all the last few days driving around again for no reason.

I think it will be OK soon as a few friends who have filled up their car to maximum are not using it, in case they need to use the car in an emergency, I have noticed a lot less traffic so less fuel is being used compared to normal so hopefully it should get back to normal soon 

[Orb]

1 hour ago, yelims said:

Drivers in Ireland earn more than UK (in a stable currency without high inflation), pull the other one

Yeah, if you were working for Ronan Hughes you could have earned £50k for 3 days work, but would now be doing a 20 year prison sentence. 

But more seriously, I've been in the industry for over 20 years, have considered moving to Ireland myself, and have always been of the understanding they don't pay better at all. All the Irish HGV jobs I looked at around 2 years ago were paying about 10 euros an hour. It looked like a heavily suppressed industry wage-wise. I've been on a lively internet forum for truck drivers for 12 years, and the discussion has always acknowledged that wages for Irish HGV drivers lag behind the UK. 

If you can show me some good evidence that they do earn more, I'll be willing to change my mind. Perhaps Irish drivers have experienced similar recent wage rises to UK drivers recently, and it's merely escaped my attention? 

 

[wighty]

23 minutes ago, Orb said:

Yeah, if you were working for Ronan Hughes you could have earned £50k for 3 days work, but would now be doing a 20 year prison sentence. 

But more seriously, I've been in the industry for over 20 years, have considered moving to Ireland myself, and have always been of the understanding they don't pay better at all. All the Irish HGV jobs I looked at around 2 years ago were paying about 10 euros an hour. It looked like a heavily suppressed industry wage-wise. I've been on a lively internet forum for truck drivers for 12 years, and the discussion has always acknowledged that wages for Irish HGV drivers lag behind the UK. 

If you can show me some good evidence that they do earn more, I'll be willing to change my mind. Perhaps Irish drivers have experienced similar recent wage rises to UK drivers recently, and it's merely escaped my attention? 

 

Do you think IR35 has contributed to the shortage of drivers?.

Self employed drivers have had to pay more tax - making it more profitable net pay wise to change to a full time occupation outside HGV

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by wighty

[Dorkins]

2 hours ago, A.steve said:

i am unclear what the "official" story is about how these problems arose.

The official line that Shapps et al are pushing is that the shortages at the pump are due to panic buying caused by the Road Hauliers Association falsely briefing journalists that there were shortages. So basically they are trying to pin the blame on the RHA.

[Orb]

16 minutes ago, wighty said:

Do you think IR35 has contributed to the shortage of drivers?.

Massively. In fact I'd argue it's the overriding factor in the exodus of EU drivers going back. 

[wighty]

4 minutes ago, Orb said:

Massively. In fact I'd argue it's the overriding factor in the exodus of EU drivers going back. 

Thought as much. IR35 will contibute far more upheaval than let on by the gov. as the general public aren't interested in it, nor aware of its consequences.

[shlomo]

2 minutes ago, wighty said:

Thought as much. IR35 will contibute far more upheaval than let on by the gov. as the general public aren't interested in it, nor aware of its consequences.

Please explain.....

[Dorkins]

9 minutes ago, Orb said:

Massively. In fact I'd argue it's the overriding factor in the exodus of EU drivers going back. 

The UK taxes working for a living excessively and is then surprised that people don't want to do all this work. UK politicians from all parties are forever banging on about 'hard working families' being their number one priority but in reality they are happy to heap tax after tax on workers and protect the asset prices and undertaxed rents of those with assets.

[Orb]

Just now, Dorkins said:

The UK taxes working for a living excessively and is then surprised that people don't want to do all this work. UK politicians from all parties are forever banging on about 'hard working families' being their number one priority but in reality they are happy to heap tax after tax on workers and protect the asset prices and undertaxed rents of those with assets.

Absolutely. I once had a conversation with a Romanian colleague, an HGV driver, and it was the one and only time anybody ever told me directly to my face that I'm stupid, and made me feel it. The reason he said this is because I was PAYE employed, and paidg taxes ordinarily. If I recall correctly, he was paying £9 per week income tax, fiddled that way through his umbrella company. He earned in 3 nights what I earned in 4. They were all at it, it was endemic amongst EEs. They laughed at us for paying so much tax. 

[kzb]

2 hours ago, PeanutButter said:

Watch out tinfoil storage next! All orchestrated by umm Kazakhstan?

You’re assuming I have mates  

But seriously, it’s Shell isn’t it. Is it? Or perhaps it’s just petroleum adjacent. Plastics? Gazprom? Personal assistant to a Saudi Royal? 

Go on, you can tell us. It’s OK to have vested interests on here. I’m an evil landlord, after all.

 

No honestly I don't.

So who do we listen to?  Energy industry experts or a 16 y.o girl with autism?  Clearly it's the 16 y.o girl with autism.  She has the special power to actually see CO2 with her own eyes.

People have had enough of experts, after all.

[Dorkins]

15 minutes ago, Orb said:

Absolutely. I once had a conversation with a Romanian colleague, an HGV driver, and it was the one and only time anybody ever told me directly to my face that I'm stupid, and made me feel it. The reason he said this is because I was PAYE employed, and paidg taxes ordinarily. If I recall correctly, he was paying £9 per week income tax, fiddled that way through his umbrella company. He earned in 3 nights what I earned in 4. They were all at it, it was endemic amongst EEs. They laughed at us for paying so much tax. 

Workers finding ways to avoid some of the UK's excessive tax on work was exactly why the government brought in IR35. It's important for the Treasury to extract as much from workers' wage packets as possible so they can afford generous policies for rentiers like the recent stamp duty holiday for landlords and mortgage interest relief for BTL.

Instead of people having to work around the system the UK government could choose tomorrow to cut tax on working and increase tax on unearned income until they met somewhere in the middle but it doesn't because it is not scared of workers.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Dorkins

[kzb]

2 hours ago, btd1981 said:

You'd like to think every Muppet that wants to panic buy has a full car by now? If so this should blow over quite soon, unless they've spent all the last few days driving around again for no reason.

No, every time they go a couple of miles they need to brim it again.  Never know when you'll find any next.

[Pmax2020]

I took the wee boy out for a cycle yesterday and deliberately went passed a few petrol stations in town. (We live just outside Edinburgh).  I could see the ‘pump empty’ tags on a few. Some garages had big queues on Friday but all looked ok yesterday. There was fuel there if you needed it.

Going to head out on the bike this evening and I bet it’s a different picture. 

You can actually readily check the annual mileage of cars online, so people I know were posting photos of these scummy hoarders online alongside their mileage. As you can imagine you had folk filling 6 or 7 containers in their boot which was literally a years worth of fuel for them… 

[slawek]

15 minutes ago, Orb said:

Absolutely. I once had a conversation with a Romanian colleague, an HGV driver, and it was the one and only time anybody ever told me directly to my face that I'm stupid, and made me feel it. The reason he said this is because I was PAYE employed, and paidg taxes ordinarily. If I recall correctly, he was paying £9 per week income tax, fiddled that way through his umbrella company. He earned in 3 nights what I earned in 4. They were all at it, it was endemic amongst EEs. They laughed at us for paying so much tax. 

This proves you have no idea what IR35 is about. An umbrella company is used only when you are "inside IR35", you are a deemed employee.

That IR35 reform was about shifting liability for taxes from contractors to companies buying services from them if they classify contractors wrongly as "outside IR35", not employees. The companies can still treat contractors as before but many just don't want to take the risk as the rules are not clear what outside/inside IR35 means. Those companies mostly compensated contracts by increasing their rates. 

[captainb]

10 minutes ago, slawek said:

This proves you have no idea what IR35 is about. An umbrella company is used only when you are "inside IR35", you are a deemed employee.

That IR35 reform was about shifting liability for taxes from contractors to companies buying services from them if they classify contractors wrongly as "outside IR35", not employees. The companies can still treat contractors as before but many just don't want to take the risk as the rules are not clear what outside/inside IR35 means. Those companies mostly compensated contracts by increasing their rates. 

Not sure that's the case.. well certainly hasn't been in financial services anyway. Some IT contractors who work on legacy systems have managed to get the upflift, as would be a nightmare to replace,  but most haven't.

Standard to say all contracts inside IR35 as finance slash risk slash compliance department doesn't want the hassle of taking a view.

 

[PeanutButter]

19 minutes ago, kzb said:

No honestly I don't.

So who do we listen to?  Energy industry experts or a 16 y.o girl with autism?  Clearly it's the 16 y.o girl with autism.  She has the special power to actually see CO2 with her own eyes.

People have had enough of experts, after all.

🧐

 

[slawek]

2 minutes ago, captainb said:

Not sure that's the case.. well certainly hasn't been in financial services anyway. Some IT contractors who work on legacy systems have managed to get the upflift, as would be a nightmare to replace,  but most haven't.

Standard to say all contracts inside IR35 as finance slash risk slash compliance department doesn't want the hassle of taking a view.

 

I was talking about drivers. Their rates has recently increased more than the contractor cost of moving inside of IR35 (around 15-20%). 

[Nationalist]

Last night at 10pm, queued for 25 mins at a Surrey Sainsburys and then filled my 60 litre tank. Real problem was there was a line to pay - only 1 of 4 tills was manned. Queues at the till means queues outside.

[winkie]

Selling all this extra fuel at recent high prices must be great for duty and vat collection.

[rollover]

Stanlow oil refinery ‘on brink of collapse’

The UK’s second biggest oil refinery is locked in talks with tax officials over a deferred tax bill amid reports that it could be on the brink of collapse.

Essar Energy, which owns the Stanlow oil refinery in Ellesmere Port, Cheshire, is negotiating with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) over a £223m VAT payment, delayed because of the pandemic.

Guardian

[FallingAwake]

How does something (an oil refinery) reach "the brink of collapse" when it is part of Essar Energy, which in turn is part of the Essar Group?

This would be like a Cadbury factory on the brink of collapse, after being owned by a US "cheese" manufacturing conglomerate. (I put "cheese" in quotes, naturally.)

[reddog]

18 minutes ago, FallingAwake said:

How does something (an oil refinery) reach "the brink of collapse" when it is part of Essar Energy, which in turn is part of the Essar Group?

This would be like a Cadbury factory on the brink of collapse, after being owned by a US "cheese" manufacturing conglomerate. (I put "cheese" in quotes, naturally.)

Exactly, the media just love the drama.

[onlooker]

34 minutes ago, FallingAwake said:

How does something (an oil refinery) reach "the brink of collapse" when it is part of Essar Energy, which in turn is part of the Essar Group?

This would be like a Cadbury factory on the brink of collapse, after being owned by a US "cheese" manufacturing conglomerate. (I put "cheese" in quotes, naturally.)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10029847/Stanlow-Oil-Refinery-chiefs-hold-crisis-talks-HMRC-223m-VAT-bill-amid-fears-collapse.html

They were allowed to defer a VAT bill, which has now fallen due to be repaid. But they say they haven't got the money. The present fuel chaos is an excellent time to out pressure on the Govt to try to pursuade them to defer further or even waive the tax bill. Indian businessmen are very clever.

[FallingAwake]

1 minute ago, onlooker said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10029847/Stanlow-Oil-Refinery-chiefs-hold-crisis-talks-HMRC-223m-VAT-bill-amid-fears-collapse.html

They were allowed to defer a VAT bill, which has now fallen due to be repaid. But they say they haven't got the money. The present fuel chaos is an excellent time to out pressure on the Govt to try to pursuade them to defer further or even waive the tax bill. Indian businessmen are very clever.

I'd call their bluff. "You're right, you can't afford it." Nationalise the refinery and barr Essar Energy from holding assets like this in the future.

Or at least, I'd write up the draft order proposing this during the meeting with them...