Keir Starmer sets out what he stands for in 11,500 word essay

[Dorkins]

27 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

This does seem a forum for life's losers sometimes  - here's the news tens of millions are doing ok, and you will be in a £60k+ job soon for peanuts as a training fee 

It's an easy jibe but I'm pretty sure the average income of posters on here is far above the UK average, that's how so many are able to buy a house despite the high prices. You don't have to be poor to arrive at the belief that the economic system is broken/wrong.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Dorkins

[iamnumerate]

1 hour ago, Huggy said:

I voted Labour once, decades ago, because the Tories at that time weren't my kind of people. Labour are now so removed from me that they could be aliens.

From recent memory, Labour can be summed up by the (IMO) superbly humorous poster below. It genuinely does feel like this rather than the 'fake news' gaslighting nonsense from that thread.

I don't think Sir Keir is one of those awful people and actually getting something down in writing is a decent enough move (I haven't read it, but will take a peep and edit this post as necessary).

But, Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, that kneeling photo etc etc etc.....means Boris can do whatever he wants right now. Think about that and think about what can be done to 'solve' that

+1

I don't like the Tories but this is very true.

[Pop321]

2 hours ago, simon2 said:

Until they come up with better people I don't think there is any appetite for the left-wing stuff among voters and a more appropriate plan might try to be out-Conservative the cons. But they won't.

Don't think any change will come in the short to medium term; in fact I actually wouldn't be surprised to see a party come from nowhere to challenge eventually. Maybe by the end of the decade a tech-savvy, woke, experts in going viral younger party would be quite appealing rather than the crusty old politicians we have now, who only seem to get there by virtue of Oxford or Cambridge.

Maybe closer in style to Labour than Conservatives but with none of the baggage surrounding it.

The whole Cambridge/Oxford thing is getting worse. Assistants, advisers, researches for MPs all coming from the education chuckle factory….Mr Average not represented. Mr Average doesn’t even understand that….he just gets to pay more NI and hopefully be happy to be earning a decent wage if he is lucky. 

[iamnumerate]

3 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

It's an easy jibe but I'm pretty sure the average income of posters on here is far above the UK average, that's how so many are able to buy a house despite the high prices. You don't have to be poor to arrive at the belief that the economic system is broken/wrong.

In my road two nurses as a couple could have bought a house straight out of nursing school in 1995 - now one would have to be a GP.

That is so obviously wrong. And parts of the country it is even worse!

[Pop321]

2 hours ago, Frugal Git said:

I gave the poor sod the benefit of the doubt and skim read it. 

Parts of it are pretty good - he does mention housing quite a bit including a lovely direct reference to buy to let landlords hoovering up half of young people's incomes. It reads suspiciously like a letter I wrote to every local candidate for election in 2014 ish, stating that the demographic problems are a sh*t show.

However, he dared to celebrate the success of the Blair/brown era. By doing that, all credibility is lost. 

The economics of it are thin on the ground, and wishy washy of course. 

Overall, sorry, but I'll still spoil my vote and stick to aggressive legal tax avoidance and bitcoin.

Agree. And I stick to hypocritically people farming but will advocate the opposite.

Only reason I can sleep at night is because people seem to think it’s ok to have a cruel business….allows me to knowingly undercharge rent and feel like some kind of liberal Joseph Rowntree benefactor of the poor. 

[Pop321]

2 hours ago, Freki said:

You want to be left in this country and still a capitalist, it is not very hard. 

Compulsory equity schemes for employees.

Putting in order fake self employment

Give a leg up to FTB/OO and not a leg down

Bring childcare costs in line with OECD average

Play on income tax / wealth tax (LVT) to make it tax neutral on bottom 80%

The Sun headline on your radical ideas. “Communism in the UK. Ideas think tank wants you to pay for benefit claimants kids and hurt hard working businesses” etc. 

•See page 4 for X Factor contestant sex scandal. 🤦🏻‍♂️

I like your suggestions though  😆

[Pop321]

2 hours ago, Dorkins said:

Why on earth do landlords still get mortgage interest relief? Why was it left to George Osborne to cut it down to basic rate and why are Labour not proposing to abolish it entirely? Where is the plan to give private tenants a crumb of security of tenure? Nobody is asking for Stalinism 2.0, these are pretty minimal things that any government could do to make England slightly less cruel to people who are not already comfortable in housing terms.

Being slightly less cruel to those in need. Are you a communist? 😉

[Pop321]

56 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

Whatever your politics its bad presentation, which perhaps to a less than incisive mind. Ken Clark would throw back any report that wasn't succinctly summarised on one page, his line was I expect you do the work not me.

Mark Twain once said, “I didn't have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one.

Agree. 

Abe Lincoln’s Gettyberg Address was 275 words long and the guy who introduced him (and no one quotes) yapped on for ages.

Abe was a bit WOKE though. The Sun newspaper would have had a field day with him daft ideas on slavery. 

Also he mentioned some nonsense about government being for the people…very old fashioned viewpoint if you ask me  😆

“– and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth.”

[Pop321]

2 hours ago, rantnrave said:

Labour in its current guise comes across as the party for the metropolitan, remain-voting woke folk. No surprise really given that the architect of Labour's last manifesto proposal to have a second referendum - which cost them so dearly in the Red Wall - was some bloke called Keir Starmer, who represents a constituency in the capital.

Unlike the Tories, Labour don't throw their leaders under the bus until they have lost an election (or resigned anyway). Overturning the current Tory majority in the next election looks like a massive task too...

I wish labour would get back to its roots - supporting workers. This would mean recognising that low skill immigration drives wages down, clamping down on benefits for the workshy and delivering policies towards ensuring that the average worker on an average salary could afford the average house price.

I live in a privileged North York’s town so those on benefits are either ill, disabled or do actually seem to be playing the game. That’s a fairly right wing viewpoint but locally it feels true but maybe not in Glasgow.

You are right some people seem themselves working class but have never actually worked.

I am WokEy happy with immigrants but not if the pendulum swings so far that employers can offer daft zero hour contracts to millions and expect people and families to build lives like that.

The ‘Left’ (or the new 2021 version) needs to be more common sense and less worried about being WOKE. I think WOKE is being used to exclude the left when really it’s not a Labour or Tory policy to be more or less WokEy than the other side.  

Some of the examples are a bit made up though. Although I think it is true that you go to jail if you say your English and not British. 😆😆

[Pop321]

1 hour ago, byron78 said:

Difference is the UK poor have - up until now - been much better looked after than their US counterparts.

The Yanks don't know any different.

I'm not actually sure why the Tories are seen as patriotic either, but I guess Northerners like flags more than an army, navy, police, a working border force, food, fuel, affordable housing, or any of the other things you'd associate with a strong country (all weakened this past decade). The numpties are probably all still booing the best England team we've had since 66 for kneeling, mind.

 

 

1 hour ago, GregBowman said:

I think there is an arc of travel which goes from the working class who are very patriotic, to the middle who think it's oh so clever to sneer at symbols and bravery onwards to the upper class who are again patriotic. Very unique  to the British that division

I think as Byron points out there are versions of patriotic (some misguided) but I think you class arc is true to some extent.

I am in the middle class I guess and a lot of the liberal lefties do snear at the forces, royal family etc and do themselves no favours. Indeed it certainly didn’t help with the Brexit vote  (another thread I know)  

Whereas my posh uncles are all very patriotic….maybe they have a lot to protect but they are still genuine enough. 

[Frugal Git]

1 hour ago, Dorkins said:

It's an easy jibe but I'm pretty sure the average income of posters on here is far above the UK average, that's how so many are able to buy a house despite the high prices. You don't have to be poor to arrive at the belief that the economic system is broken/wrong.

Indeed. Or rent and not give a f**k 😁

[spyguy]

4 hours ago, Dorkins said:

Why on earth do landlords still get mortgage interest relief? Why was it left to George Osborne to cut it down to basic rate and why are Labour not proposing to abolish it entirely? Where is the plan to give private tenants a crumb of security of tenure? Nobody is asking for Stalinism 2.0, these are pretty minimal things that any government could do to make England slightly less cruel to people who are not already comfortable in housing terms.

They dont. Tgey fet a tax credit.

The problem us - Why arent the s24 rules being pushed harder.

They should also move io btl loans off regulated banks balance sheets by forcing tye banks to hold 100% capital against io loans.

[Dorkins]

Seems pretty clear the Tory plan is to run the economy for the benefit of the already-rich (pump asset prices, keep taxes on wealth and unearned income low, crank up taxes on wages) and hang on to enough common people via culture war stuff to retain power. It's a good strategy, I'd be surprised if they fail to hold onto power until at least 2029.

Labour's attempt to win over Tory voters seems utterly pointless to me, anybody who uses the word 'woke' in earnest is never voting Labour again even if Starmer himself goes out on a jetski to ram dinghies in the Channel all summer. It seems like it would be easier to win over Labour-curious voters with bread-and-butter policies on housing, education, healthcare etc. Plenty that could be borrowed from the Scottish Parliament like more secure private tenancies, cheaper prescriptions, free buses for children etc etc.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Dorkins

[Frugal Git]

1 hour ago, Pop321 said:

Agree. And I stick to hypocritically people farming but will advocate the opposite.

Only reason I can sleep at night is because people seem to think it’s ok to have a cruel business….allows me to knowingly undercharge rent and feel like some kind of liberal Joseph Rowntree benefactor of the poor. 

😂👍 

I feel similarly. Piling in on any speculative instrument going in the pension knowing that a huge proportion of the money in it came because I willfully chose to avoid tax. There is no way I truly need 40k going into my pension a year. I’ll be more than happy bumming around South America scratching a living for fun in my 60s, which at worst I imagine would need $25k p/a then (but probably half that is fine). But I’m not giving any more than I legally have to to a profligate state. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Frugal Git

[Pop321]

34 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

Seems pretty clear the Tory plan is to run the economy for the benefit of the already-rich (pump asset prices, keep taxes on wealth and unearned income low, crank up taxes on wages) and hang on to enough common people via culture war stuff to retain power. It's a good strategy, I'd be surprised if they fail to hold onto power until at least 2029.

Labour's attempt to win over Tory voters seems utterly pointless to me, anybody who uses the word 'woke' in earnest is never voting Labour again even if Starmer himself goes out on a jetski to ram dinghies in the Channel all summer. It seems like it would be easier to win over Labour-curious voters with bread-and-butter policies on housing, education, healthcare etc. Plenty that could be borrowed from the Scottish Parliament like more secure private tenancies, cheaper prescriptions, free buses for children etc etc.

😆😆 love the idea of the jet ski  

WOKE isn’t a Labour thing.

The MCC (hardly left) have changed batsmen to batters to be gender neutral. I for one feel so much better with this excellent policy change in sport, not a waste of time at all. 🤦🏻‍♂️

I am sure there is a higher agenda. A double bluff if you like.

“You can’t even push dog poo through you foreign neighbours letterbox anymore”. See that’s common sense unacceptable….a lot of the other stuff could be taken to such an extreme that it gets beyond a joke. 

[FANG]

6 hours ago, Si1 said:

Agreed. Yawn indeed.

That's embarrassing isn't it.

 

He may as well as put this in the public domain as it is far more representative of him as a man and politician.

Good god why can't we have any creditable opposition to the Tories or is the system rigged and they are all in the game milking it together.

 

[Pop321]

7 minutes ago, FANG said:

He may as well as put this in the public domain as it is far more representative of him as a man and politician.

Good god why can't we have any creditable opposition to the Tories or is the system rigged and they are all in the game milking it together.

 

I’m sorry. Is the question…

“is the knighted Sir Kier Starmer, Oxford Graduate and multi millionaire in the same game as the rest?”  Tricky.😆😆.

I genuinely think some of these guys (Sir Kier maybe?) are trying their best and believe in something good but aren’t equipped (often due to their outlier backgrounds) to truly know what it’s all about….some are “just in jobs”….and some are evil.

[Si1]

1 hour ago, Pop321 said:

I’m sorry. Is the question…

“is the knighted Sir Kier Starmer, Oxford Graduate and multi millionaire in the same game as the rest?”  Tricky.😆😆.

I genuinely think some of these guys (Sir Kier maybe?) are trying their best and believe in something good but aren’t equipped (often due to their outlier backgrounds) to truly know what it’s all about….some are “just in jobs”….and some are evil.

I have a soft spot for Ed Millband since he lost the 2015 GE (or whatever).

 

 

[FANG]

4 minutes ago, Si1 said:

I have a soft spot for Ed Millband since he lost the 2015 GE (or whatever).

 

 

Sorry but Labour are such a Joke. How the hell has it got to this with a clown in charge.

So Fuc you its every man for himself now

[andrewwk]

On 24/09/2021 at 12:39, Pop321 said:

I live in a privileged North York’s town so those on benefits are either ill, disabled or do actually seem to be playing the game. That’s a fairly right wing viewpoint but locally it feels true but maybe not in Glasgow.

You are right some people seem themselves working class but have never actually worked.

I am WokEy happy with immigrants but not if the pendulum swings so far that employers can offer daft zero hour contracts to millions and expect people and families to build lives like that.

The ‘Left’ (or the new 2021 version) needs to be more common sense and less worried about being WOKE. I think WOKE is being used to exclude the left when really it’s not a Labour or Tory policy to be more or less WokEy than the other side.  

Some of the examples are a bit made up though. Although I think it is true that you go to jail if you say your English and not British. 😆😆

You are Stewart Lee and I claim my 5 pounds

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

On 24/09/2021 at 09:18, Dorkins said:

Why on earth do landlords still get mortgage interest relief? Why was it left to George Osborne to cut it down to basic rate and why are Labour not proposing to abolish it entirely? Where is the plan to give private tenants a crumb of security of tenure? Nobody is asking for Stalinism 2.0, these are pretty minimal things that any government could do to make England slightly less cruel to people who are not already comfortable in housing terms.

Kind of interesting how New Labour squeezed out the Tories by moving more to the centre and by owning the middle ground.

Tories have done exactly the same to Corbyn/Starmer. They implemented the minimum wage and they appear to have the most diverse make up. They've pushed out Labour by owning their territory. The question is, are the things they do really changing peoples lives, or just sops to the working class man/woman ?

Seems to me today a lot of politicians are paralysed by the opinion polls, Tories included. Labour before Corbyn and maybe under Starmer are very much fence sitting too scared to try to come up with new policy in case it pisses of one or more of the large voting blocs.

Corbyn did come up with some interesting ideas but ultimately a lot of his policy was too batshit to implement for the middle ground.

If the Tories really are as bad as people claim they are, surely it should be simple to come up with a political vision to counter them and implement it. I just feel that Starmer is the wrong guy at the wrong time. They need someone who can sell a vision like Tony Blair and stick with that vision. Does anyone really feel Starmer is that man ?

 

[byron78]

I regret not voting for Ed Milliband in 2015 (in hindsight).

Ran rings round Cameron, but beyond that it's nailed on we wouldn't be in this mess (hard to imagine anyone running the country as badly as it has been this past 10+ years tbh).

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

1 minute ago, byron78 said:

I regret not voting for Ed Milliband in 2015 (in hindsight).

Ran rings round Cameron, but beyond that it's nailed on we wouldn't be in this mess (hard to imagine anyone running the country as badly as it has been this past 10+ years tbh).

Can't even remember what his key policies were.

[byron78]

35 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

Can't even remember what his key policies were.

Not funding ISIS (which Cameron genuinely tried to do briefly!) and generally not just running the economy for him and his mates.

Hell, I'm not saying Ed Milliband was good. I think I've just woken up to how bad we've had it of late is all.

[zugzwang]

2 hours ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

Corbyn did come up with some interesting ideas but ultimately a lot of his policy was too batshit to implement for the middle ground.

 

The 2019 manifesto was entirely consistent in its aims and ambitions with the mainstream of European democratic socialism. Everything was costed. The suggestion that Corbs would bankrupt the country by borrowing £400bn to renationalise the utlity companies and the railways etc. over five years was plainly absurd - the Tories have borrowed as much in eighteen months and intend to borrow hundreds of billions more over the lifetime of this parliament propping up inefficient and insolvent private enterprises.