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Baby shortage - UK economic decline


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55 minutes ago, Orb said:

What's depressing about conceiving the world as an essential over populated dystopia largely controlled by psychopaths, and deciding not to bring children into it? 

It would be more depressing watching them hopelessly subject to the cynical forces which would shape their lives, and for them to probably never be aware of them.

Amen.

TBH it's probably easy enough to not get too depressed about it if you're the type of person who doesn't get bothered about anything that doesn't have an immediate physical impact on you, don't get enough out of anything to lament its loss, and are satisfied with simple distractions (or are simply too busy to stop and think), but what sort of life is that?

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29 minutes ago, desiringonlychild said:

I do want a child but when childcare is £1600 per kid and I need to stay in London near my mother in law who could help with the baby sitting (limiting my housing options to 2 and 3 bedroom flats), it's a no brainer why I would stop at one. That and the mortgage. 

The only people who can afford to have lots of children are the rich and people on benefits. Even if we can afford it on paper, we don't want to because we are compromising a comfortable life + savings for more years of sleepless nights and diapers. 

Don't ever try and have kids, they ain't for you. If your not willing to make sacrifices in lifestyle to have children you dont deserve them. The answer is simple, move further out to cheaper areas, spend more time commuting, and juggle childcare costs, keep birth of kids 4 years apart so one it at school when the other is in Nursery. Of personal friends who all work in London , one moved up the ladders in the bucks / oxford borders, had 3 kids, the wife gave up work to become a full time mum and the Dad moved around form London consulting jobs to end up ina senior manager role in purchasing of IT for London Underground , on about £120k p/a. Another couple both retained full time jobs in the Aylesbury and London areas, moved up the ladder, bought a 3 story 6 bed town house in Leighton Buzzard , had 3 kids, but both always worked and with the big house they took on a series of live in au pairs every 12-18 months. 

Third couple met both doing ok in London, combined and married , bought a big 3/4 million 5 bed detached in Wendover, and both did long commutes to London. they had just 1 kid and juggled nursery full time 6.30am to 7pm, the wife cut her hours when school started but still continued to work in London. 

None, and i repeat None, live within 10-20+ miles from either set of Grandparents and had no regular help from them, they were working parents off their own backs.

I'm the only net millionaire amongst them, so none of them are rich, but they all have £100k - £150k family incomes now with 2 earners and nice houses in the Northern home counties, as they have moved up their London careers. 

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1 hour ago, Orb said:

What's depressing about conceiving the world as an essential over populated dystopia largely controlled by psychopaths, and deciding not to bring children into it? 

 

I like to indulge myself in apocalyptic HPC & Economic doomsday chat as much as the next guy but even the mundane parts of life as well as fleeting moments transcend that burrowing feeing in my mind that the world is ‘just a horrible place’. 

When I’m out running I can enjoy being outdoors away from the pressures of day to day life. I find myself enjoying those minor changes in surroundings as we progress through each season. Running in the frost, snow, rain, or sunshine. You can’t beat it.

You just need to find the things that bring you enjoyment and block out the crappy bits. It’s not easy but it’s worth living for 😝

Edited by Pmax2020
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Low birth rate is a mega trend that I have been talking about for a while.

 

Even middle Eastern countries are having less kids, I think Saudi Arabia and Iran are at about 2 kids per couple.

 

Parts of Africa like Nigeria still have high birthrates (like 5), but even that is going down.

 

It could really affect economic growth, but may make the world a safer place, for example if you only have one kid, do you really want that kid to fight on a war or be a suicide bomber?

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3 hours ago, Pmax2020 said:

I'm in my late 30s and while I’m fortunate enough to have young kids now, it wasn’t as easy because we left it that bit later. We know many people who relied on IVF to fall pregnant as they too were getting that bit older. Luckily being Scottish, the threat of paying for IVF must of focused my mind and we didn’t need to resort to it. 

 Lifestyle, diet and mental health play a huge part in it.

We left it late (too much travelling) 34/38 for the first and 35/39 for the second, but no issues producing. In fact my career oriented wife got rather cautious at getting close to me after that as she didn't want a third! 

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11 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

We left it late (too much travelling) 34/38 for the first and 35/39 for the second, but no issues producing. 

I thought in general males had less issues with reproduction relatively late when approaching or passing through early middle age (in their 30s and 40s) with females against a tighter deadline.

Edit - having kids at 18+ to 25 conforms much more to arbitrary, cruel evolutionary pressures, but has its steep downfalls as well (when the parents are still not so much older than high schoolers, etc).

Edited by Big Orange
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22 minutes ago, Big Orange said:

I thought in general males had less issues with reproduction relatively late when approaching or passing through early middle age (in their 30s and 40s) with females against a tighter deadline.

Edit - having kids at 18+ to 25 conforms much more to arbitrary, cruel evolutionary pressures, but has its steep downfalls as well (when the parents are still not so much older than high schoolers, etc).

That is largely true, but plenty of others our age had issues, but possibly they didn't eat well or took too many legal or illegal drugs etc. 

Edited by Mikhail Liebenstein
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3 hours ago, Orb said:

What's depressing about conceiving the world as an essential over populated dystopia largely controlled by psychopaths, and deciding not to bring children into it? 

It would be more depressing watching them hopelessly subject to the cynical forces which would shape their lives, and for them to probably never be aware of them. 

 

Nothing depressing about deciding not to have children.

No point regarding the world as dystopian though - this is the only world you can live in: might as well enjoy it for what it is.

 

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11 hours ago, doomed said:

Nope. Nothing would make me happier than watching my children do what makes them happy, no matter where it takes them.

This is one thing I like about English speaking cultures. In most other cultures the children are expected to stay with their parents until they get married. In some cultures they are expect to live with them even when they are married. 

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At some point in the 1980s my parents were given a secure council tenancy. The tenancy gave them stability and the confidence to start a family. Today it is unthinkable that a council house would be given to a couple in their early 20s that both worked. I now feel financially stable enough to consider starting a family, but I am a decade older than my parents were when they had me. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, markyh said:

Don't ever try and have kids, they ain't for you. If your not willing to make sacrifices in lifestyle to have children you dont deserve them. The answer is simple, move further out to cheaper areas, spend more time commuting, and juggle childcare costs, keep birth of kids 4 years apart so one it at school when the other is in Nursery. Of personal friends who all work in London , one moved up the ladders in the bucks / oxford borders, had 3 kids, the wife gave up work to become a full time mum and the Dad moved around form London consulting jobs to end up ina senior manager role in purchasing of IT for London Underground , on about £120k p/a. Another couple both retained full time jobs in the Aylesbury and London areas, moved up the ladder, bought a 3 story 6 bed town house in Leighton Buzzard , had 3 kids, but both always worked and with the big house they took on a series of live in au pairs every 12-18 months. 

Third couple met both doing ok in London, combined and married , bought a big 3/4 million 5 bed detached in Wendover, and both did long commutes to London. they had just 1 kid and juggled nursery full time 6.30am to 7pm, the wife cut her hours when school started but still continued to work in London. 

None, and i repeat None, live within 10-20+ miles from either set of Grandparents and had no regular help from them, they were working parents off their own backs.

I'm the only net millionaire amongst them, so none of them are rich, but they all have £100k - £150k family incomes now with 2 earners and nice houses in the Northern home counties, as they have moved up their London careers. 

That is 1 way of doing it. Another way is staying in London, probably still paying childcare and having grandmother as a backup. I was raised by my grandma who lived in the same house as me while my parents worked full time. My DH is a 4th generation Londoner, not sure why he has to move out when we own our place and his parents didn't even move out nor did his grandparents. based on your anecdotes, everyone in london moves out when they have children but thats not true or london primary schools wouldn't have a 0.5 miles catchment. And not all of them are on free school meals, only 0.2% of the kids at the primary school I am looking at for my kid is on FSM. 

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3 hours ago, markyh said:

Don't ever try and have kids, they ain't for you. If your not willing to make sacrifices in lifestyle to have children you dont deserve them. The answer is simple, move further out to cheaper areas, spend more time commuting, and juggle childcare costs, keep birth of kids 4 years apart so one it at school when the other is in Nursery. Of personal friends who all work in London , one moved up the ladders in the bucks / oxford borders, had 3 kids, the wife gave up work to become a full time mum and the Dad moved around form London consulting jobs to end up ina senior manager role in purchasing of IT for London Underground , on about £120k p/a. Another couple both retained full time jobs in the Aylesbury and London areas, moved up the ladder, bought a 3 story 6 bed town house in Leighton Buzzard , had 3 kids, but both always worked and with the big house they took on a series of live in au pairs every 12-18 months. 

Third couple met both doing ok in London, combined and married , bought a big 3/4 million 5 bed detached in Wendover, and both did long commutes to London. they had just 1 kid and juggled nursery full time 6.30am to 7pm, the wife cut her hours when school started but still continued to work in London. 

None, and i repeat None, live within 10-20+ miles from either set of Grandparents and had no regular help from them, they were working parents off their own backs.

I'm the only net millionaire amongst them, so none of them are rich, but they all have £100k - £150k family incomes now with 2 earners and nice houses in the Northern home counties, as they have moved up their London careers. 

And also I was sent to daycare from 7 am to 7 pm daily in the 1990s as the child of 2 working parents. Grandma could only cope with my sister once she was born. Based on my childhood experience, I preferred it when my grandma cared for me as opposed to the daycare...It takes a village to raise a child but its always preferable when its family members. If you are lucky enough to have grandparents who live in the same city as your place of work (and sacrificed in the 1990s to do so including living in a 1 bed flat with 3 kids until the property market crashed), why would you give that up? Those people who moved from london probably didn't have parents who lived in London so obviously moving from london was no big sacrifice given that their parents wouldn't have been able to look after the grandkids anyway.

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32 minutes ago, DonJop12 said:

At some point in the 1980s my parents were given a secure council tenancy. The tenancy gave them stability and the confidence to start a family. Today it is unthinkable that a council house would be given to a couple in their early 20s that both worked. I now feel financially stable enough to consider starting a family, but I am a decade older than my parents were when they had me. 

Yes speaking to someone the other day who said they were given a council flat from Tower Hamlets Council in the 80's. I asked how long they were on the list for ? The reply there was no list we did not have to wait. They were also in the early 20s. 

I have relatives who got the same back in the 60's and 70's both working no children. 

Today even people with children who work would not be put on the list there  is so little council housing left unless you have certain difficulties they tell you to go and rent privately if you cannot afford to buy. 

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9 hours ago, DonJop12 said:

I am a decade older than my parents were when they had me. 

I think that is the case for most now, it must certainly have some knock ons as well health wise for the kids. Congenital defects do rise across the population as the average age of parenthood rises. 

 

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1 hour ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

I think that is the case for most now, it must certainly have some knock ons as well health wise for the kids. Congenital defects do rise across the population as the average age of parenthood rises. 

 

Autism being one, particularly for male parent age. https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/link-parental-age-autism-explained/

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20 minutes ago, doomed said:

Men over 40 have 6x the chance of child with autism. I did not expect to see such a large increase.

IMO our modern lifestyle and prolonged exposure to chemicals plays a part in the damage, but that’s just my thought based on our air/water/soil/food/foetuses being riddled with micro plastics and PFAs, among myriad other nasties. 

Autism rates have gone up a lot, the counter argument being diagnosis is getting better. 

https://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/latest/2021/03/autismratesincrease/

Around one in 57 (1.76%) children in the UK is on the autistic spectrum, significantly higher than previously reported, according to a study of more than 7 million children

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13 minutes ago, Timbuk3 said:

Was going to say that BoJo had this issue covered already.  He has 8 he admits to but he's a notorious spaffer so probably has a few others out there.

..and what do the Tory faithful say about fecund fathers with many kids living off the state?

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