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Baby shortage - UK economic decline


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57 minutes ago, doomed said:

The whole point of being here is to pass on your genes. There are going to be a lot of sad old lonely people about.

Whole point? Only point is to pass on genes to people whose only point is to pass on genes whose only point is to pass on genes... What's the point of that for the sake of it?

We're not here for any reason at all. There's no actual "point" to existence, it's just something we've got. It's up to choose what we want to make of it, it's not dictated from on high.

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43 minutes ago, definitelynotanagent said:

Tbh having kids is not for everyone. We've got two, but it's stressful as f*** most days, and my single co-workers seem to be having a much less stressful life.

If we accidentally had another one, I would have a mental breakdown 100% guaranteed. 

 

Children are basically designed to absorb as many of their parents' resources as they can without quite killing them. The problem is that parents also have an employer, a mortgage lender/landlord and the taxman who are doing the same thing at the same time.

Edited by Dorkins
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16 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Whole point? Only point is to pass on genes to people whose only point is to pass on genes whose only point is to pass on genes... What's the point of that for the sake of it?

We're not here for any reason at all. There's no actual "point" to existence, it's just something we've got. It's up to choose what we want to make of it, it's not dictated from on high.

So you believe we are not biologically driven in our pursuits and we just individually decide what we want? 

Edited by doomed
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23 minutes ago, TheCountOfNowhere said:

They take money off a middle class money hoarders and hand it to someone else, who'll spend it on rent and food/clothes/petrol/coffee/amazon tat/etc

The money then goes to the rich/bankers/tax spongers.

It's the biggest scam in history.

Rentier capitalism.

We've been indoctrinated to it by the billionaire press and the BBC over many years but the world's most successful economies have never embraced it. China, Japan, Germany, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan etc. Not one of them has ever espoused the self-lacerating ideology of free movement/free trade.

The UK's become a plaything of the international financial elite because of it. Over-run with economic migrants, non-domiciled rent extractors and absentee landlords.

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Just now, doomed said:

So you do not believe we are biologically driven in our pursuits and we just individually decide what we want? 

Oh we're biologically driven, we're animals after all and without built-in impulses, whether it's to reproduce or eat or drink or sleep - we'd just sit down and starve otherwise - but that's not the same as saying there's a point or reason, any more than saying the point of water is to flow downhill.

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5 hours ago, zugzwang said:

Rentier capitalism.

We've been indoctrinated to it by the billionaire press and the BBC over many years but the world's most successful economies have never embraced it. China, Japan, Germany, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan etc. Not one of them has ever espoused the self-lacerating ideology of free movement/free trade.

Everyone of them got similar problems to the UK to a similar extent with decreasing birthrates, work/leisure unsustainably out of whack, and porous borders, but we definitely torpedoed ourselves in the medium to long term with our Public Limited Company system accutely prone to failure or hostile take overs, even our land sold to the highest bidder (see the Saudi Royals buying up a quarter of London).

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I think it’s a generational thing. More people going to uni immediately adds 4 or 5 years to when the time is right to have a family. People also want to establish a career before starting a family which is fair enough. Some employers aren’t flexible about longer maternity leave either which is problematic. 

Im in my late 30s and while I’m fortunate enough to have young kids now, it wasn’t as easy because we left it that bit later. We know many people who relied on IVF to fall pregnant as they too were getting that bit older. Luckily being Scottish, the threat of paying for IVF must of focused my mind and we didn’t need to resort to it. 

It’s incredibly common for couples to be told ‘you’re both perfectly fit and healthy, we can’t explain why you’re not falling pregnant’. So I wouldn’t assume that for many women/couples it’s been a choice not to have kids. Lifestyle, diet and mental health play a huge part in it.

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7 hours ago, doomed said:

I'm not really talking about replacement numbers, just the massive hole that is going to be left in people's lives without having at least one child.

That's the fear though, isn't it? That there will be a hole in my life. 

That thinking is part of the problem. Whenever I tell people that I've no children (I'm 42), their reaction is almost unanimous: "but what about when you're old, who's going to look after you?". It's as if most people want children as a pension plan - an ultimately selfish motivation. The ones who planned children that is. For the accidents, don't you think it's tragic somebody has to endure 70+ years of this life because somebody, whilst pissed up, looked at an overweight bird smoking a fag in an outside area of a late-night bar and, against his better judgement, thought it'd be a good idea to stick his ***** into her whilst the lights were out?

I'm sure if I was shown the pamphlet for planet earth before I was born, I'd have said fook that! I'm staying here in the void where it's quiet.

Living life, and experiencing the stresses, strains, pains, fears, and anxieties is virtual purgatory for most folk in one way or another, and to what end? Three score years and ten and you're six foot under. We all are. And what's life like during those years? I look around and most people either appear to be, or actually are very unhappy. The alcohol. The narcotics. The Anti-depressants. Domestic abuse. Suicidal thoughts. Divorce rates. Everyone has a demon or three. Perhaps it's modern life. Perhaps it's the imperative to acquire material wealth and shun spiritual health. Perhaps it's property prices, worrying about the mortgage, or the constant barking dog. Who knows? Either way, nobody can deny that life is very cruel. Why force another to experience that? 

With 8 billion people in the world, this world, I think there's a lot to be said for taking an anti-natalist position. After all, I'd hate to burden another by forcing them to live life in these unnatural and unjust human systems, built by humans, but not for humans. Not having children feels like the most considered and ethical choice. I get a strange satisfaction from being a genetic dead end, and comfort from knowing I shall one day die. I think a lot of people do, if they're honest.

I'll own my fate. Nobody, not even my potential children owe me anything when I'm poo'ing myself whilst being cleaned up from poo'ing myself just 5 minutes prior. That's for me to overcome alone, just as I've overcome other obstacles at certain life stages. Being old is no different. I've accepted that my fate is (or probably will be) a solitary one, although I won't be lonely as I've made a best friend of myself. I suppose one could say I've found inner peace at last. Who needs children when you have inner peace? They'll only disturb you. 

Edited by Orb
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16 minutes ago, Orb said:

Living life, and experiencing the stresses, strains, pains, fears, and anxieties is virtual purgatory for most folk in one way or another, and to what end? Three score years and ten and you're six foot under. We all are. And what's life like during those years? I look around and most people either appear to be, or actually are very unhappy.. 

How depressing! I don’t know what the opposite of rose tinted specs is but you seem to be viewing the world through a pair.

Plenty of people are happily content - everyone has their problems of course, but most have their joys and pleasures as well. 

The fact that we will indeed all end up six feet under seems all the more reason to enjoy those pleasures now whilst we can.

”Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself - it’s later than you think “ as the old song goes 

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Couples have fewer children if any at all these days.......years gone by left school at 14, married 18 to 20 and had three, four to six children by 30........now we do things much later having none, one to three children not begining or thinking about it until almost 30 that is if left enough time, or time has not run out....making money coming before making children.;)

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9 hours ago, doomed said:

The whole point of being here is to pass on your genes. There are going to be a lot of sad old lonely people about.

There are lots of sad lonely people who have kids, having them doesn't mean they are going to look after you in old age or bother seeing you much or at all, from what I've seen. True not having kids guarantees a lonely old age, assuming you make it to old age in some respects but not everyone can have or want kids for various reasons. 

Edited by petetong
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25 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

How depressing! I don’t know what the opposite of rose tinted specs is but you seem to be viewing the world through a pair.

Plenty of people are happily content - everyone has their problems of course, but most have their joys and pleasures as well. 

The fact that we will indeed all end up six feet under seems all the more reason to enjoy those pleasures now whilst we can.

”Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself - it’s later than you think “ as the old song goes 

What's depressing about conceiving the world as an essential over populated dystopia largely controlled by psychopaths, and deciding not to bring children into it? 

It would be more depressing watching them hopelessly subject to the cynical forces which would shape their lives, and for them to probably never be aware of them. 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Orb said:

Why does it guarantee it? 

 

Well it doesn't generally but in the context used in the original comment it does make it more likely to some degree I suppose, if you've got no family left and no kids. Obviously you can have a busy social life/interests outside of immediate family. 

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7 hours ago, PeanutButter said:

I'd just like to thank @Mikhail Liebenstein for starting this thread. Pure gold, some of these replies 😂

 

I am now merging Mumsnet with this thread!

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Putting aside the absurd chaos in the English Channel (which could be solved easily if politicians grew some balls), governments are going to be highly reluctant to increase immigration in response to this falling birth rate (the old trick). And seeing as the birth rate of immigrants massively outweighs natives, can we expect peak UK population quite soon and a long term decline thereafter?

And what will house price bulls do without the population growth argument?

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I do want a child but when childcare is £1600 per kid and I need to stay in London near my mother in law who could help with the baby sitting (limiting my housing options to 2 and 3 bedroom flats), it's a no brainer why I would stop at one. That and the mortgage. 

The only people who can afford to have lots of children are the rich and people on benefits. Even if we can afford it on paper, we don't want to because we are compromising a comfortable life + savings for more years of sleepless nights and diapers. 

Edited by desiringonlychild
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