Council tax replaced with LVT

[anteos]

Finally some sense:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9999765/Council-tax-replaced-annual-payment-think-tank-says.html

As most mps have multiple homes/BTL portfolios it will never happen, but one can hope.

[Si1]

Stupid arguments against it:

 

"It's the garden tax"

"It's penalising people for inheriting property"

"It's double taxation"

"I'm related to the Queen/Boris Johnson/Esther Rantzen"

[byron78]

Christ I hope not.

Hopefully get shouted down and called a socialist garden tax or some such nonsense by the usual useful idiots.

[wighty]

22 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Stupid arguments against it:

 

"It's the garden tax"

"It's penalising people for inheriting property"

"It's double taxation"

"I'm related to the Queen/Boris Johnson/Esther Rantzen"

How can the little old lady in a million£ mansion afford wealth tax on a pension?.

[Si1]

1 minute ago, wighty said:

How can the little old lady in a million£ mansion afford wealth tax on a pension?.

Exactly. Double taxation. She paid national insurance in 1952

[wighty]

3 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Exactly. Double taxation. She paid national insurance in 1952

She'll have to take in Afghanistan refugees.

[Smiley George]

The comments don't seem to rate the idea

I'm all for a change from council tax to something more progressive and to address the disparity's highlighted in the article. It's not perfect and I can see some challenges with house valuations and distribution of the tax across local councils.

The scrapping of SDLT is also a very good idea, its one of the worst most unfair taxes levied in this country.

[Horseradish]

Hell will freeze over before that happens. Sadly.

[Greater Fool]

I don't know what the problem is with Council Tax on high band properties, a few more above inflation % rises and throw in a few more "one off" increases for social care and 1 million+ houses will be paying 5k a year.

[Trump Invective]

"Not my fault my house has gone up in value"

i.e. I admit I did nothing. No "hard work". No avoiding smartphone purchases. Nothing to do with avocados.

[Fromage Frais]

This has a chance of happening once the crash has happened.

I also think Labour as it stands have no choice but to go for it as at the moment what are they offering?

So once the economy goes down the shitter and price crash.

Conservatives boosted debt and house prices for their donors.

So many people have lost their homes we the labour party want to make sure that this does not happen.

So we saw the problem before it happened and proposed a LVT to make sure that families are not forced to compete with speculators from all over the world happy to leave homes empty.  

and there you go.

Labour have no chance winning at the moment they dont have the centre ground so best to throw the dice and bet that events will come to their way of thinking.

We are on HPC the majority view on this forum is that houses are to expensive and have been manipulated to dangerous levels.

If we are wrong and prices keep going to to moon forever labour will be out forever if we are right and its about to blow as soon as rates go up Labour are better taking the hit now on policies that capitalise when that happens.

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Fromage Frais

[iamnumerate]

This bit is strange

Quote

The think tank said the move would lead to a fall in house prices of 3 per cent in London and other well-off places in the south. 

That is not a big amount really.

16 minutes ago, Fromage Frais said:

I also think Labour as it stands have no choice but to go for it as at the moment what are they offering?

 

 

The problem for Labour is that this could hit Labour voters in parts of London. How would work for someone living in an expensive council house? Presumably their rent would have to go up accordingly?

[FTB-house-hunter]

3 hours ago, anteos said:

Finally some sense:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9999765/Council-tax-replaced-annual-payment-think-tank-says.html

As most mps have multiple homes/BTL portfolios it will never happen, but one can hope.

I agree with it.  I would even go further and charge a higher % each year for second and third homes etc.  Every dwelling should have to pay it, no excuses or loopholes.

[iamnumerate]

22 minutes ago, FTB-house-hunter said:

I agree with it.  I would even go further and charge a higher % each year for second and third homes etc.  Every dwelling should have to pay it, no excuses or loopholes.

I would too. It would be a wonderful thing - although I am not sure how to do it for second and third homes.

[FTB-house-hunter]

2 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

I would too. It would be a wonderful thing - although I am not sure how to do it for second and third homes.

1st home = 0.5% each year

2nd home = 1% each year

3rd home = 1.5% each year and so on, and so on. 

Wouldn't matter if it was in a limited company that owned the properties either.  Everyone pays.

Edited September 17, 2021 by FTB-house-hunter

[Pop321]

10 hours ago, anteos said:

Finally some sense:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9999765/Council-tax-replaced-annual-payment-think-tank-says.html

As most mps have multiple homes/BTL portfolios it will never happen, but one can hope.

Just looked at my area and the top council tax paid isn’t far off these amounts. I think whilst it’s a shake up it’s really no more than a revaluation of house prices v the council tax bands which is long overdue. 

I pay about £2200 on my home and that would be about 0.5%, and if combined with SDLT removal it’s a significant reduction.

This hits a £14m Chelsea home massively, a £1m a home a tad and those property would see a significant reduction in SDLT.

They keep mentioning little old ladies in £2m homes who are living on state pensions…..it would be interesting to know how many of those who really do exist

If it replaces council tax I assume tenants pay this…. so not sure it hits landlords as much as some suggest but I guess it makes higher priced houses more expensive for tenants so therefore less attractive to rent in terms of costs.?

Edited September 17, 2021 by Pop321

[spacedin]

Speaking of taxation, following the election result in Norway I was looking at some of the taxation over there. 

How do you think the following would sit with the British public if we had it here bearing in mind there is a significant reduction of the below called a 'valuation discount'? Like 75% on primary dwelling... What surprised me is that a motorhome or even a car are regarded as wealth.

I mean imagine calling LVT a 'wealth tax' officially, it would send the tabloid media into a frenzy.

1,500,000 NOK is about £125k

Wealth tax to the municipality

Tax class	Wealth	Rate
Tax class 0	0 and above	0,7 %
Tax class 1	NOK 0 - 1,500,000	0,0 %
Tax class 1	NOK 1,500,000 and above	0,7 %

The  activation thresholds are for single taxpayers. For spouses who are assessed jointly on their joint wealth, the activation thresholds are twice the amounts shown in the table.

Wealth tax to the state

Tax class	Wealth	Rate
Tax class 0 and 1	NOK 0 - 1,500,000	0,0 %
	NOK 1,500,000 and above	0,15 %

The activation thresholds are for single taxpayers. For spouses who are assessed jointly on their joint wealth, the activation thresholds are twice the amounts shown in the table.

 

https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/rates/wealth-tax/

What is a validation discount?

A valuation discount is a discount which is granted for the value of certain assets such as housing and commercial property, shares, etc. and fixed assets. The valuation discount reduces the basis for wealth tax and results in lower wealth tax if you have net wealth which exceeds the minimum amounts; see the rates for wealth tax.

If you have any debts, the deduction for debt will be reduced proportionately between the value of certain assets with a valuation discount and the value of your total wealth. If you have a spouse or registered partner, the deduction for debt will be reduced based on both your total assets and debt and those of your spouse/partner.

https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/person/taxes/get-the-taxes-right/valuation-discount-in-connection-with-assessment-of-wealth/

Edited September 17, 2021 by spacedin

[pig]

7 minutes ago, Pop321 said:

Just looked at my area and the top council tax paid isn’t far off these amounts. I think whilst it’s a shake up it’s really no more than a revaluation of house prices v the council tax bands which is long overdue. 

I pay about £2200 on my home and that would be about 0.5%, and if combined with SDLT removal it’s a significant reduction.

This hits a £14m Chelsea home massively, a £1m a home a tad and those property would see a significant reduction in SDLT.

They keep mentioning little old ladies in £2m homes who are living on state pensions…..it would be interesting to know how many of those who really do exist

If it replaces council tax I assume tenants pay this…. so not sure it hits landlords as much as some suggest but I guess it makes higher priced houses more expensive for tenants so therefore less attractive to rent in terms of costs.?

I'd say a lot but obviously not just little old ladies - I guess it would pan out as a kind of social/wage cleansing of the south.

[Pop321]

Being positioned as a Labour idea and says ‘so called mansion tax’ etc. 

Interesting but mirrored by independent liberal conservative think tanks too.

https://www.brightblue.org.uk/home-truths-press-release/

This one suggests a 25% surcharge on second homes. 

The public comments and general tone in the original article (about the Labour think tank) mean this won’t happen, it just won’t. Despite many in these threads calling for property tax too many will think its communism.

I will keep backing BJ hikes in NI and looking after his mates and i will play the game….the rest can get left behind. Serves them right.  

Edited September 18, 2021 by Pop321

[nothernsoul]

It seems as if 1990 when the council tax was introduced has become year zero(especially as both Labour and Tory governments have both bottled out of revaluation and rebranding since). Britain had the domestic rates before, which I believe was linked to estimated rental income? Not quite the same as a LVT, but the country didn't collapse or anything. I am not old enough personally to have paid them, do other posters have personal experience?

[Freki]

Implementing LTV must come at a fairly even tax burden onto the working class. 

Implementing LTV must mean bringing down income tax hand in hand. There is no other way. The goal is to realign the tax burden onto who can and should bear it. 

Income was the only game in town part WW2 and its massive destruction of wealth. Now in a world where wealth is increasingly concentrated into fewer hands, the burden of tax needs to be bear by the wealthy. 

[MARTINX9]

To be fair Lloyd George and the Liberal Government of 1906 were keen on a land value tax - its nothing new.

What I of course love about the UK - is how people are so outraged about taxes on accumulated wealth they (or more accurately their 65 year old kids) will never pay especially given the £1m exemption now for a family home. But putting up taxes on actual hard work which they do is just fine.

The current council tax system is disgraceful and regressive - even more so when you consider that an oligarch living in a £100 million mansion in Belgravia actually pays less council tax than an elderly couple in a semi detached in Croydon. Because Westminster's council tax is less than half what most authorities charge due to their parking income etc subsidising it (not directly but because it pays for things which elsewhere have to be picked up by local taxpayers).

And if the oligarch in Belgravia lives alone and its his main home - he even gets 25% single person discount so barely pays £1,100 a year (or only £1,500 if his maid lives in). In California or Manhattan he would pay closer to £1m in property tax on a similar house. No wonder the global elite like to park their money in London real estate. Its comical - but no one dare reform it.

More bands and doubling the tax on high value prime London homes just won't cut it. In equivalent bolt holts they would pay 100 times what they pay in the UK!

If this government wants to truly level up and help the red wall they would reform the system - but their snouts are too heavily invested in London real estate so they won't! Make the minimum waged pay more NI instead - instead of reforming council tax to fund social care (a local service).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2019/12/12/lachlan-murdoch-reportedly-buys-150-million-bel-air-mansion/?sh=2db857293d1f

Edited September 18, 2021 by MARTINX9

[Pop321]

1 hour ago, MARTINX9 said:

To be fair Lloyd George and the Liberal Government of 1906 were keen on a land value tax - its nothing new.

What I of course love about the UK - is how people are so outraged about taxes on accumulated wealth they (or more accurately their 65 year old kids) will never pay especially given the £1m exemption now for a family home. But putting up taxes on actual hard work which they do is just fine.

The current council tax system is disgraceful and regressive - even more so when you consider that an oligarch living in a £100 million mansion in Belgravia actually pays less council tax than an elderly couple in a semi detached in Croydon. Because Westminster's council tax is less than half what most authorities charge due to their parking income etc subsidising it (not directly but because it pays for things which elsewhere have to be picked up by local taxpayers).

And if the oligarch in Belgravia lives alone and its his main home - he even gets 25% single person discount so barely pays £1,100 a year (or only £1,500 if his maid lives in). In California or Manhattan he would pay closer to £1m in property tax on a similar house. No wonder the global elite like to park their money in London real estate. Its comical - but no one dare reform it.

More bands and doubling the tax on high value prime London homes just won't cut it. In equivalent bolt holts they would pay 100 times what they pay in the UK!

If this government wants to truly level up and help the red wall they would reform the system - but their snouts are too heavily invested in London real estate so they won't! Make the minimum waged pay more NI instead - instead of reforming council tax to fund social care (a local service).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2019/12/12/lachlan-murdoch-reportedly-buys-150-million-bel-air-mansion/?sh=2db857293d1f

Concur completely. Good illustration.

The inequity that might be perceived in a new system is nothing to the actual inequity of the current system.

It would be a house tax rather than a local tax because some councils will be collecting less, some more….but sorting that out nationally wouldn’t be rocket science. 👍🏻👍🏻

[Fromage Frais]

On 17/09/2021 at 16:22, iamnumerate said:

This bit is strange

That is not a big amount really.

The problem for Labour is that this could hit Labour voters in parts of London. How would work for someone living in an expensive council house? Presumably their rent would have to go up accordingly?

True but then at the end of the day whats the difference between......when it comes to property.

greedy selfish tory capitalists who want government to subsidise and not tax their assets

and

Wonderful kind hearted labour civil servants and celebs who live in London and have their property as their pension and the primary way they are going to price out Locals when they move to the shires?

None really so that is why LVT does not stand a chance until we have already had a crash.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Fromage Frais