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This will end and everyone will go back to the office and sell their newly acquired cottages in Cornwall


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22 minutes ago, btl_hater said:

Heaven forbid workers should start to reclaim some work/life balance!

Can't really get my head around thinking that bringing work into your private life is improving work-life balance. If it's just long commutes that bother you then it's the situation that lead to that being common that needs addressing.

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1 minute ago, Si1 said:

You'd think, in the long run, if part wfh is more efficient then it's good for the economy.

So what if it is? Whether or not it's good for people is the bit that matters.

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Just now, Riedquat said:

So what if it is? Whether or not it's good for people is the bit that matters.

If you measure value properly then their interests are closely aligned.

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2 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

They can decide all they want but they can't control all our actions. I'm getting ready to say goodbye to mine. I'll start looking for a new role.

Good for you.....if it works well for many, why do they try to fix it for all?....best to walk away.;)

 

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4 minutes ago, Si1 said:

If you measure value properly then their interests are closely aligned.

Quite a big assumption methinks. "It's good for the economy" has been used time after time to justify absolutely anything and everything. How strong is the correlation between the size of the economy and overall happiness?

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4 minutes ago, Si1 said:

You'd think, in the long run, if part wfh is more efficient then it's good for the economy.

Cities form because they're very efficient. That's why work concentrates in single areas, again, efficiency. They are good for the economy. However, there is no externality cost for the continued growth of the city and the now significant cost on people's lives through the commute - I'm mostly talking about London, don't know other areas. The commute is costly, extremely unpleasant through crowding, delays, extremely unhealthy if you also get on the underground, time costly, family costly, etc.

Again, that externality cost is not counted and it's only growing to the new generations as we get pushed further out.

I put in my time commuting and bum sitting in the office over the years, I won't do it anymore.

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8 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Can't really get my head around thinking that bringing work into your private life is improving work-life balance. If it's just long commutes that bother you then it's the situation that lead to that being common that needs addressing.

That's because you live somewhere your commute will be short.

You really should try harder to read and empathise with other people because this has been explained to you over and over.

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2 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Quite a big assumption methinks. "It's good for the economy" has been used time after time to justify absolutely anything and everything.

I didn't conflate the two.

2 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

 

How strong is the correlation between the size of the economy and overall happiness?

 

Basically if you actually place a value, objectively, on people's comfort, so you taxed things proportionately that screwed things up, then happiness and being better off would be measurably the same thing. For example there's a tax incentive to prevent the elderly downsizing their living arrangements which forces younger people to build new homes which aren't necessarily really needed. That's actually a poorer economic and happiness outcome.

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13 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

 How strong is the correlation between the size of the economy and overall happiness?

Boils down to an individuals expectations.......two different people require two different sums to be equally happy.......some peoples lives are very expensive to service, their happiness requires things that are expensive to obtain......everyone is different.;) 

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10 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Basically if you actually place a value, objectively, on people's comfort, so you taxed things proportionately that screwed things up, then happiness and being better off would be measurably the same thing. For example there's a tax incentive to prevent the elderly downsizing their living arrangements which forces younger people to build new homes which aren't necessarily really needed. That's actually a poorer economic and happiness outcome.

There's some link - if you're struggling to get the basics of survival you're unlikely to be happy. But you can't look at someone's disposable income and say how reliably happy they are. As a personal example, when I moved to where I live now by any supposedly "objective" criteria I should be less happy, but the opposite was the case (still a miserable bugger due to the wider world, but more wealth wouldn't make me happier - I'm quite satisfied at the personal level).

There's no such think as objective value, it's all subjective.

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5 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

There's some link - if you're struggling to get the basics of survival you're unlikely to be happy. But you can't look at someone's disposable income and say how reliably happy they are. As a personal example, when I moved to where I live now by any supposedly "objective" criteria I should be less happy, but the opposite was the case (still a miserable bugger due to the wider world, but more wealth wouldn't make me happier - I'm quite satisfied at the personal level).

There's no such think as objective value, it's all subjective.

Ok it is ultimately all subjective but there are better and worse ways of measuring it, it's a tangible concept

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17 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Ok it is ultimately all subjective but there are better and worse ways of measuring it, it's a tangible concept

I think it's a pretty poor way of measuring it which leads to significantly warped priorities and results. It's only advantage is that it's simple (gives an unambiguously measurable number), but that doesn't give it any value itself. What was that quote about not everything of value can be measured and not everything measurable is of value? And of course there's a lot in between those.

The real problem though is that whilst it's an important factor it gets elevated well beyond that to the be all and end all.

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3 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

I think it's a pretty poor way of measuring it which leads to significantly warped priorities and results. It's only advantage is that it's simple (gives an unambiguously measurable number), but that doesn't give it any value itself. What was that quote about not everything of value can be measured and not everything measurable is of value? And of course there's a lot in between those.

The real problem though is that whilst it's an important factor it gets elevated well beyond that to the be all and end all.

I dunno, value is like the standard unit of measuring whether things are good or not. For example the Lake District has tangible financial value because it provides clean water to millions of people and also effectively huge leisure services to the population too. Just because it's hard to measure doesn't mean other measures aren't worse. If you were to urbanise it then if you accounted properly for what it was 'worth' beforehand then you'd probably destroy measured wealth in doing so.

Edited by Si1
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2 minutes ago, Si1 said:

I dunno, value is like the standard unit of measuring whether things are good or not. For example the Lake District has tangible financial value because it provides clean water to millions of people and also effectively huge leisure services to the population too. Just because it's hard to measure doesn't mean other measures aren't worse. If you were to urbanise it then if you accounted properly for what it was 'worth' beforehand then you'd probably destroy measured wealth in doing so.

That sort of assessment would say "fine, there's no problem in strip mining the Lake District" if it was inaccessible and there was no need for water. The reality is that value is very subjective, so all you can realistically do is make subjective assessments of it. A good grasp of the economic situation is one necessary component for deciding what you're going to do, what can be done, and how to do it (including balancing various different things), but which things are worth doing, that cannot be measured or determined by numbers.

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Just now, Riedquat said:

That sort of assessment would say "fine, there's no problem in strip mining the Lake District" 

Sorry but that's bullsh#t and you're just making stuff up. It's a fact that ecosystems and national parks are considered as natural and social assets with implicitly valuations in the many many billions of pounds as they exist. Although it's very difficult to do so. 

Sure you can reply 'no it isn't' but that's not a reply that's just you making stuff up. I'd suggest you look up ecosystem services, or natural resource accounting. https://www.nationalparks.org/connect/blog/beyond-visit-how-we-value-national-parks

 

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10 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Sorry but that's bullsh#t and you're just making stuff up. It's a fact that ecosystems and national parks are considered as natural and social assets with implicitly valuations in the many many billions of pounds as they exist. Although it's very difficult to do so. 

Sure you can reply 'no it isn't' but that's not a reply that's just you making stuff up. I'd suggest you look up ecosystem services, or natural resource accounting. https://www.nationalparks.org/connect/blog/beyond-visit-how-we-value-national-parks

Not agreeing with you is not making stuff up; if anything you're just highlighting the absurdity of trying to assess value in economic terms - an idea which is both making stuff up itself and implicitly highly disturbing (suggesting as it does that ultimately monetary value is the important thing).

See the earlier quote about not everything of value can be measured (can't recall the exact words). Making that monetary assessment is operating under the fallacy that it can be.

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22 hours ago, winkie said:

....It is not one or the other, home or some awful return sardine touchy squeezy journey, expensive time wasting experience to some office in a 'name the city of your choice' just to meet like minded people, share a few creative thoughts to rinse and repeat daily.......madness, the compromise is a local office hub can take your time, cycle, bus, drive or walk, relax, plenty of space a place to get the most out of people that are less stressed more focused and have more time and control of their lives....thus can see more clearly. ;)

 

Co-working places, which is what you seem to be advocating I agree are great for employees. It saves them the commute and allows them to separate work and home life, provides a suitable working environment and allows for greater in person interaction.

The problem is I just can’t see what is in it for the employer. They would have to pay for the co-working spaces but would not get much of the benefit of face to face interactions from their employees. 

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36 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

Co-working places, which is what you seem to be advocating I agree are great for employees. It saves them the commute and allows them to separate work and home life, provides a suitable working environment and allows for greater in person interaction.

The problem is I just can’t see what is in it for the employer. They would have to pay for the co-working spaces but would not get much of the benefit of face to face interactions from their employees. 

They need to delegate......it is the employees that make the bulk of  money for the business, not the managers that think they do...what happened to trust? ;)

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1 hour ago, Philosopher said:

Co-working places, which is what you seem to be advocating I agree are great for employees. It saves them the commute and allows them to separate work and home life, provides a suitable working environment and allows for greater in person interaction.

I like the idea of them too, the concept goes a long way to bringing together the pros of both and mitigating the cons of both (not entirely, but I can see it would be a net positive to a very large proportion of workers). And for me to see something positive in a concept that's not just looking back...

Quote

The problem is I just can’t see what is in it for the employer. They would have to pay for the co-working spaces but would not get much of the benefit of face to face interactions from their employees. 

The benefit of having staff who aren't miserably slogging through the day in a poor state of mind must be quite high.

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6 hours ago, dugsbody said:

Our "big corp" that made all the right noises about more flexibility last year while trying to keep us all motivated has changed the message. Now it's all about "dynamic collaboration in person", "we can't wait to see you all".

Oh well, time to get the CV updated and look around. I will not be returning back to an office full time, they can pick from a smaller pool of talent.

I wish everyone who wants to return to the office well, but some of us are not fortunate enough to have family money, or already own a house from years back close to the office, etc. I value my family and health more than a commute because some busy bodies need to see bums in seats.

So you WFH before Covid?

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6 hours ago, dugsbody said:

They can decide all they want but they can't control all our actions. I'm getting ready to say goodbye to mine. I'll start looking for a new role.

That is why I said "most" people, most people who are not key players will just do what they are told (Clap for carers, wear a mask, don`t go out, buy a new-build etc.) Most people will just get back when they are told to get back IMO. Next step will be stopping Furlough and a big campaign on telly etc. about the benefits of co-working/being at work etc. What might f*uck this plan is an upsurge in Covid variants, Sky "news" today seemed cagey about discussing too much the areas that are experiencing upticks, it was like they didn`t want to be too specific about areas, this after a year+ of incontinent babbling every day all day long about Covid!

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On 11/05/2021 at 08:41, spyguy said:

Slow and expensive.

Its cheaper - and quicker - for anyone North/West of London/Bham to go to Spain.

I mean, it was nice. Just not that nice. And you get very little bang for your buck.

And, yes, Cwall is warmer than the rest of he UK. But not as warm as Barca.

 

On 11/05/2021 at 09:13, Dorkins said:

The best way to remind yourself why you haven't holidayed in England for years is to have a holiday in England. Expensive, unreliable weather, surroundings and food too similar to home to get the feeling you've actually been away somewhere.

5 hours from North York’s to North Devon. Beautiful beaches, surfing and great little holiday breaks with an almost Bondi laid back feel. 

Best is when on Thursday a decision is made, Friday we fill the car and Saturday we drive down.

Oh, slight advantage when a sibling lives down there and you get to stay for free....the cost for me is a desperate desire to spoil said sibling by buying them loads of food and meals out because they save you £150 a night of accommodation costs 😆😉

We avoid the ‘same as home’ feel by eating out more in evenings, barbecues, beach picnics....and the shops are very different, a little ‘poorer and more twee’ than we are used to.  

We love Italy, cheap flights from Leeds. We love Australia with relatively cheap flights from Manchester. We love America and again relatively low cost flights. Devon was always part of the holiday mix rather than a ‘be all and end all’. 

Just defending UK holidays....because with the right mindset they can be good. 

Appreciate flights abroad may now be more, Devon accommodation will now be more (for those without siblings living there)....so things may change but we like it down there. Wouldn’t pay £2k a week for accommodation anywhere in the world though....so I take that point. 

A ‘top tip’ is self contained flats (even in London and abroad) seem much much better value than hotels at the moment. I like normal breakfast (keeps me regular😆) so self catering is ideal because a light lunch whilst out and evening meals out are our preference anyway. 

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6 minutes ago, Pop321 said:

 

5 hours from North York’s to North Devon. Beautiful beaches, surfing and great little holiday breaks with an almost Bondi laid back feel. 

Best is when on Thursday a decision is made, Friday we fill the car and Saturday we drive down.

Oh, slight advantage when a sibling lives down there and you get to stay for free....the cost for me is a desperate desire to spoil said sibling by buying them loads of food and meals out because they save you £150 a night of accommodation costs 😆😉

We avoid the ‘same as home’ feel by eating out more in evenings, barbecues, beach picnics....and the shops are very different, a little ‘poorer and more twee’ than we are used to.  

We love Italy, cheap flights from Leeds. We love Australia with relatively cheap flights from Manchester. We love America and again relatively low cost flights. Devon was always part of the holiday mix rather than a ‘be all and end all’. 

Just defending UK holidays....because with the right mindset they can be good. 

Appreciate flights abroad may now be more, Devon accommodation will now be more (for those without siblings living there)....so things may change but we like it down there. Wouldn’t pay £2k a week for accommodation anywhere in the world though....so I take that point. 

A ‘top tip’ is self contained flats (even in London and abroad) seem much much better value than hotels at the moment. I like normal breakfast (keeps me regular😆) so self catering is ideal because a light lunch whilst out and evening meals out are our preference anyway. 

Depends on traffic.

A ~90min spin out the Scabby from Leeds can sometimes take over 2h.

 

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21 hours ago, dugsbody said:

Our "big corp" that made all the right noises about more flexibility last year while trying to keep us all motivated has changed the message. Now it's all about "dynamic collaboration in person", "we can't wait to see you all".

Oh well, time to get the CV updated and look around. I will not be returning back to an office full time, they can pick from a smaller pool of talent.

I wish everyone who wants to return to the office well, but some of us are not fortunate enough to have family money, or already own a house from years back close to the office, etc. I value my family and health more than a commute because some busy bodies need to see bums in seats.

I am with you on this one.

I worked in roles that involved enormous amounts of travel (visiting offices across the North of England, Scotland and Ireland) for 10 years then took a central role for the last 5 years of my career. What a blessing. 

First 6 months I went everyday to the central office, developed relationships and learnt the new job. Then once that time was served I knew 8/9 hours a day I was on a headset and screen. (Yes, since 2012 we were working like this).

My commute was 90 minutes each way so I began to work from home and a little old local office a mile from home. It was life changing. My calls might finish at 5:30 and I was already home. Some days things went wrong and I wouldn’t finish until 7 but I was already home....it was brilliant.

I was lucky, I wasn’t a number cruncher doing admin but led a team of specialists risk advisors and we were all on calls developing, maintaining and pricing products....just 4 of us when previously there had been 12. So we were flat out however no one could ask us to attend meetings face to face...because we might be in 4/5 proper meetings a day that were scattered across the UK, so we dialled in and used pc face screens. So office visits happened but maybe once a fortnight  

The point is, one day we had a ‘usual disaster’ where things weren’t working...IT sorted, press engaged etc and the day ended at 8:30pm all sorted. Director thanks everyone in London and specifically me for supporting and attending the calls including the final one, I realised he assumed I was in Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds central office and now had a long commute home. I said thanks, put the phone down and was still able to enjoy an evening film because I was already home and already had my tea.

I guess it depends on the job, your home environment and it depends on the commute. I never missed the coffee machine social interaction because I was on the phone and busy and having left work 2 years ago I regularly keep in contact with the guys....

I always said I keep my biggest challenges and development opportunities outside the work environment. Family and Health always first. 

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19 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Depends on traffic.

A ~90min spin out the Scabby from Leeds can sometimes take over 2h.

 

So I have heard. Who goes to scabby though 😆

Joking apart 5 hours is the fastest and bizarrely was done on an autumn bank holiday Saturday setting off at noon...with warnings it could be the ‘busiest day ever in the roads’. We planned a contingency overnight in Bristol but drove straight past and ‘surprised’ my sister with an early arrival 😆😆

To be fair, we sometimes just stop to stretch legs and grab a take away coffee....and our kids are adults now so just us two is a very very different journey listening to 80’s music and chatting. I wouldn’t fancy the drive with young kids, it could take 10 hours. 

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