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Who will be the next Labour leader and can they unify the party to eventually beat the conservatives


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No . Labour voters have finally realised the Labour policy of importing millions of fast breeder spongers, and helping the indigenous feckless ( and then banging on about equality) , means even the proper "working " class will be fleeced

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54 minutes ago, winkie said:

It is not a radical position, it needn't be.....they are policies the majority of the population would agree with.....clearly there is nobody within the Labour party that is of leadership material......no clear plan or the ability to sell, put to the people their intentions on how they would take the country forward......too many in battles internally.

I don't even think Starmer wants to run the country, doesn't act like it, an interim position....;)

Well put and sensible  policies morph into extreme left wing dinosaur 1970's policies because of Momentum. How many times will Labour having lost say - the public just don't understand our message in a patronising way ?

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1 hour ago, GregBowman said:

I quite like the tag Red Tory. It doesn't seem incompatible to me that you can believe in the power of free markets but recognise they need some form of  regulation. That bloated national government is  a waste of tax payers money and they should focus on infrastructure and in the cases of local councils, local services. That basic employment rights need protection they have been hard won over centuries. Private healthcare and education should get minor tax breaks to encourage cheap and more effective competition.

There are infrastructure industries that should be under state control the utilities and the rail network (not sure about the train operators but the tenders have to be more aligned with public interest)

Public spending of any kind from warships to PPE should be operated on a UK first basis providing the spec is met at the right price

Yes that is what they should be doing, but the labour team just don't have the instincts, knowledge and passion for all this sensible and valuable industrial and infrastructure stuff. Instead half of them are focussed on socialist ideals and the other half are equality and identity politics/focus group hand wringers.

They need some ex engineers/scientists/local business types (or people with these instincts) in key advisor positions instead of lawyers, bankers, social workers and PR. 

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23 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

Well put and sensible  policies morph into extreme left wing dinosaur 1970's policies because of Momentum. How many times will Labour having lost say - the public just don't understand our message in a patronising way ?

 

The 1970s dinosaur policies are those of the neoliberal free market Right!

The public does get the message. Starmer offered nothing they couldn't get from the Tory globalists. Andy Burnham won a landslide victory promising to take back Greater Manchester's fragmented and costly privatised bus services into public ownership.

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3 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

 

The 1970s dinosaur policies are those of the neoliberal free market Right!

The public does get the message. Starmer offered nothing they couldn't get from the Tory globalists. Andy Burnham won a landslide victory promising to take back Greater Manchester's fragmented and costly privatised bus services into public ownership.

labour have done well in the mayoral races, because the mayors are actually focussed on delivering useful initiatives locally. Lots for them  to learn there.

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4 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

 

The 1970s dinosaur policies are those of the neoliberal free market Right!

The public does get the message. Starmer offered nothing they couldn't get from the Tory globalists. Andy Burnham won a landslide victory promising to take back Greater Manchester's fragmented and costly privatised bus services into public ownership.

The tories are not globalists now, they are nationalists. That has changed. The notting hill set were globalist, and the public did for them by voting for Brexit.

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5 minutes ago, scepticus said:

The tories are not globalists now, they are nationalists. That has changed. The notting hill set were globalist, and the public did for them by voting for Brexit.

The Tories are globalists pretending to be nationalists to easily fooled voters. Just watch the actions, not the words.

Edited by dugsbody
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34 minutes ago, scepticus said:

Yes that is what they should be doing, but the labour team just don't have the instincts, knowledge and passion for all this sensible and valuable industrial and infrastructure stuff. Instead half of them are focussed on socialist ideals and the other half are equality and identity politics/focus group hand wringers.

They need some ex engineers/scientists/local business types (or people with these instincts) in key advisor positions instead of lawyers, bankers, social workers and PR. 

Agreed and now that mindset of ideals/identity politics/handwringing has become entrenched in the shadow cabinet then Labour can’t get anywhere.  Hence the almost non existent opposition to the Tories and the apparent complete lack of policies.

A massive government owned social housing programme is thoroughly Labour and would bring votes in droves and that’s just one policy.  But they can’t bring themselves to even discuss it..

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24 minutes ago, Innkeeper said:

Agreed and now that mindset of ideals/identity politics/handwringing has become entrenched in the shadow cabinet then Labour can’t get anywhere.  Hence the almost non existent opposition to the Tories and the apparent complete lack of policies.

A massive government owned social housing programme is thoroughly Labour and would bring votes in droves and that’s just one policy.  But they can’t bring themselves to even discuss it..

The new Shadow Chancellor's previous job before politics was working for HBOS. Do you really think she'd dare to threaten the value of her share options?

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1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

The Tories are globalists pretending to be nationalists to easily fooled voters. Just watch the actions, not the words.

Some of them maybe but not all of them. In any case as per my previous post, all political parties proffer political myths which carry a message and are then explained in more detail by an ideology. Boris has tapped into an effective nationhood myth supported by an ideology of levelling up and self-determination. And look, stuff is starting to happen for the north, both in terms of money and moving government activity out of london. And Brexit is done. So I am seeing actions that thus far match the words.

If the tories were not doing these things then you could say their nationhood agenda is not genuine, however given that they are I think your argument is weak. 

Its also wrong to conflate pro-capitalist policy as being anti-nationhood or globalist per-se. Its perfectly plausible to have a "team UK" that participates in global trade and capitalism but does so as a nation first and as a subordinate component of the global order second. In that sense the labour and metropolitan parties look a good deal more globalist than the tories seem, and quite possibly, the actually are.

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40 minutes ago, scepticus said:

And look, stuff is starting to happen for the north, both in terms of money and moving government activity out of london.

The northeast and northwest of England already receive higher than average public spending per capita:

image.thumb.png.32e351d03c6734cb6203d7c3dd8ac33d.png

Makes you wonder what the vision is, is it to pump public spending levels in northern England up to Scottish/NI levels around £12k per capita while southern England stays on £9k per capita? Probably doable, based on 20m people in the targeted regions x £3k per capita = £60bn pa. Compared to Covid spending it's nothing.

Could create a lot of bad feeling in the south though e.g. if people in northern England start getting free prescriptions, free university, better old age care arrangements etc as in Scotland

Edited by Dorkins
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28 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

The northeast and northwest of England already receive higher than average public spending per capita:

image.thumb.png.32e351d03c6734cb6203d7c3dd8ac33d.png

Makes you wonder what the vision is, is it to pump public spending levels in northern England up to Scottish/NI levels around £12k per capita while southern England stays on £9k per capita? Probably doable, based on 20m people in the targeted regions x £3k per capita = £60bn pa. Compared to Covid spending it's nothing.

Could create a lot of bad feeling in the south though e.g. if people in northern England start getting free prescriptions, free university, better old age care arrangements etc as in Scotland

Doubt very much they would do something so obviously divisive.

Much more likely they will put it into apprenticeship training schemes, innovation centres and business grants for example than fund free university.

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4 hours ago, Gribble said:

No . Labour voters have finally realised the Labour policy of importing millions of fast breeder spongers, and helping the indigenous feckless ( and then banging on about equality) , means even the proper "working " class will be fleeced

“Indigenous feckless” = key Tory support group!

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2 hours ago, scepticus said:

The tories are not globalists now, they are nationalists. That has changed. The notting hill set were globalist, and the public did for them voting for Brexit.

The Tories may have wrapped themselves in the flag to get Brexit done but the ideology they espouse is still that of the free market i.e. privatisation, globalisation and deregulation.

Global Britain = China First.

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2 minutes ago, btl_hater said:

“Indigenous feckless” = key Tory support group!

I would have thought "indigenous feckless" would not bother to vote. 

Maybe the Blue Collar Manual and lower end White Collar Working Class who would have been Labours core vote are now the key Tory support group myself and many of my peer group are among them and I can understand why. 

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6 minutes ago, Insane said:

I would have thought "indigenous feckless" would not bother to vote. 

Maybe the Blue Collar Manual and lower end White Collar Working Class who would have been Labours core vote are now the key Tory support group myself and many of my peer group are among them and I can understand why. 

 

Was it the 35 year mortgages and stratospherically unaffordable rents that pulled you in?

Or the half a million migrants they let into the country each and every year?

Or perhaps it was the Magic Money Tree they discovered to keep middle-class shirkers furloughed? You know, the one they said didn't exist.

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1 minute ago, zugzwang said:

Was it the 35 year mortgages and stratospherically unaffordable rents that pulled you in?

Or the half a million migrants they let into the country each and every year?

Or perhaps it was the Magic Money Tree they discovered to keep middle-class shirkers furloughed? You know, the one they said didn't exist.

The 35 and 40 year mortgages have been around long before 2010 why are you just blaming the Tory's for unaffordable housing ? 

Mass immigration is something I am against but then again that started under Blair. 

The Magic Money Tree was that the same tree that paid people £35,000 a year if they worked 16 hours a week in a minimum wage job made up with Tax Credits. 

Let's be honest The Tory's are bad it is just that Labour are worse. 

There are many reasons I won't vote Labour right now but to name a few David Lammy , Dawn Butler, Diana Abbott I listen to these people and it is as if I am meant to apologise for being white.

Before the race card comes out bare in mind black people have said to me " how could any white person vote Labour with those 3 in the party constantly race baiting the white population ? "  

When Labour say they have lost touch with the working class they miss out one word the word WHITE with 85% of the population being white do you think it is a good idea to ignore the 3 above when they let rip with their constant anti white rhetoric ? 

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47 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

The Tories may have wrapped themselves in the flag to get Brexit done but the ideology they espouse is still that of the free market i.e. privatisation, globalisation and deregulation.

Global Britain = China First.

As I mentioned above, it is incorrect to conflate support for capitalist ideology with globalist ideology. Trump very much supported the free market, but only within the USA. He was all in favour of mercantilist policy around currency, trade embargoes etc to keep team USA competitive and to level a playing field he perceived to be tilted in favour of china et al.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dorkins said:

The northeast and northwest of England already receive higher than average public spending per capita:

image.thumb.png.32e351d03c6734cb6203d7c3dd8ac33d.png

Makes you wonder what the vision is, is it to pump public spending levels in northern England up to Scottish/NI levels around £12k per capita while southern England stays on £9k per capita? Probably doable, based on 20m people in the targeted regions x £3k per capita = £60bn pa. Compared to Covid spending it's nothing.

Could create a lot of bad feeling in the south though e.g. if people in northern England start getting free prescriptions, free university, better old age care arrangements etc as in Scotland

What has been going on is that all the transfer union spending in the north is sucked back down south via the structural geographical inequality we have. Imagine if you stand at the bottom of a slide and throw water up to the top of it - it all comes slooshing back down.

maybe that is why despite the high spending in the north, London remains so much higher, so as to maintain the gravitational force of the black hole sucking the life out of the rest of the country.

 

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1 minute ago, Insane said:

The 35 and 40 year mortgages have been around long before 2010 why are you just blaming the Tory's for unaffordable housing ? 

Mass immigration is something I am against but then again that started under Blair. 

The Magic Money Tree was that the same tree that paid people £35,000 a year if they worked 16 hours a week in a minimum wage job made up with Tax Credits. 

Let's be honest The Tory's are bad it is just that Labour are worse. 

There are many reasons I won't vote Labour right now but to name a few David Lammy , Dawn Butler, Diana Abbott I listen to these people and it is as if I am meant to apologise for being white.

Before the race card comes out bare in mind black people have said to me " how could any white person vote Labour with those 3 in the party constantly race baiting the white population ? "  

When Labour say they have lost touch with the working class they miss out one word the word WHITE with 85% of the population being white do you think it is a good idea to ignore the 3 above when they let rip with their constant anti white rhetoric ? 

 

Okay, Nigel. You don't like darkies.

Got it.

 

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11 minutes ago, scepticus said:

As I mentioned above, it is incorrect to conflate support for capitalist ideology with globalist ideology. Trump very much supported the free market, but only within the USA. He was all in favour of mercantilist policy around currency, trade embargoes etc to keep team USA competitive and to level a playing field he perceived to be tilted in favour of china et al.

 

 

 

Well, that was the rhetoric.

In reality Trump was a Big Oil's placeman. Job No. 1 was to keep the spigots open and the petrodollars flowing internationally. Which he did by putting the US national debt up by a third in just four years while barking at the Fed to hold down rates and formally withdrawing from the Paris Accord on climate change.

For all the talk of mercantilism the US trade deficit hit a record high with China under his custodianship (below), his favoured Silicon Valley tech stocks (globalists all) the chief beneficiaries.

 

blog_china_trade_surplus_2019-1.jpg

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27 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

Okay, Nigel. You don't like darkies.

Got it.

You have just proved my point. 

Any hint of Racism and the Labour Party with their cohorts jump on it and want people destroyed. 

Yet when it is Racism towards if a white person just points it out people like try and turn the race card on them just for mentioning it. Double Standards. 

You called me Nigel I will call you David Diana Dawn. 

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58 minutes ago, scepticus said:

What has been going on is that all the transfer union spending in the north is sucked back down south via the structural geographical inequality we have. Imagine if you stand at the bottom of a slide and throw water up to the top of it - it all comes slooshing back down.

maybe that is why despite the high spending in the north, London remains so much higher, so as to maintain the gravitational force of the black hole sucking the life out of the rest of the country.

 

Okay, but using a bigger bucket to throw more water up the slide doesn't fix that. What's the structural fix to stop the extra public spending sloshing back into London/SE and is the government actually doing it?

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