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Who will be the next Labour leader and can they unify the party to eventually beat the conservatives


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7 hours ago, scepticus said:

If that were true labour would have a far better record than they do. No doubt there is a significant section of the poorer part of our country that would agree with you but it appears that actually there is not enough of them. In a two party system, that means the idea is doomed.

"Here I stand. I can do no other."

I'd sooner vote Green than vote for Starmer. The further he takes the party to the right the less likely I am ever to come back.

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

In a separate thread you said the country is conservative small c - that's the very definition of red Tory so not trying to put you in a box but you seem conflicted on your points.

That isn't the same as being a red Tory. Conservative with a small c means that people like to visit National Trust properties, they are suspicious of radical political movements and generally don't like radical change. That isn't the same as being Tory.

Much of the modern Tory and Red Tory agenda is very radical. Conservative with a small c Britain isn't in favour of selling off the NHS, privatising public services or the likes of Amazon avoiding tax.

Broadly speaking the country is a bit left of centre economically but right of centre when it comes to social issues.

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14 hours ago, scepticus said:

First thing for a labour replacement party is to ban the phrase tory-scum. Big turn off for 75% of the electorate I reckon, most of whom are grown-ups.

Yep, I'd agree with that. You have to be more subtle, sly and clever.

The other thing that loses them votes are the juevenille name changes - like Tony Bliar. I stop reading as soon as I see one of those. But it must tickle them pink everytime they use one.

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8 hours ago, zugzwang said:

"Here I stand. I can do no other."

I'd sooner vote Green than vote for Starmer. The further he takes the party to the right the less likely I am ever to come back.

 

 

 

I wouldn't have a problem with labour making a decisive move to the left. It would just mean we need a new party to pick up the real work of opposing the tories.

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4 hours ago, bartelbe said:

That isn't the same as being a red Tory. Conservative with a small c means that people like to visit National Trust properties, they are suspicious of radical political movements and generally don't like radical change. That isn't the same as being Tory.

Much of the modern Tory and Red Tory agenda is very radical. Conservative with a small c Britain isn't in favour of selling off the NHS, privatising public services or the likes of Amazon avoiding tax.

Broadly speaking the country is a bit left of centre economically but right of centre when it comes to social issues.

Understanding the difference between small c and big C conservative is a step in the right direction, but until people abandon the defunct left Vs right debate and differentiate between financial and social issues, making sense of the UK population and representing it is impossible. 

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3 hours ago, micawber said:

Yep, I'd agree with that. You have to be more subtle, sly and clever.

The other thing that loses them votes are the juevenille name changes - like Tony Bliar. I stop reading as soon as I see one of those. But it must tickle them pink everytime they use one.

It's Tory scum that use terms like Bliar.

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Just now, scepticus said:

I wouldn't have a problem with labour making a decisive move to the left. It would just mean we need a new party to pick up the real work of opposing the tories.

 

Unregulated free market capitalism brought us to this point. It allows pricing errors to accumulate without limit until the point of systemic collapse is reached (see 2008). Socialism is the only corrective. Regulated markets to correct the inefficiencies that externalities, cartelism, speculation and hoarding etc cause; and public ownership wherever natural monopolies are found to exist, or physical constraints make costly market failures inevitable (see Enron).

 

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4 hours ago, bartelbe said:

That isn't the same as being a red Tory. Conservative with a small c means that people like to visit National Trust properties,

Bloody hell that's a selection criteria there. Might as well add watches Great Pottery Thrown Down too. It probably encompases you, your mates and family circle and possibly Margot Leadbetter from the Good Life.

I also think the term Red Tory is chucked at anyone not in favour of Corbyn and just the same stupidity is thrown back at anyone who doesn't think Amazon evading tax is a good plan. They are cartoonish .

Dumb terms and factionalism is going to keep labour out of power and I stand by that.

People also swing on the spectrum on different issues that affect their lives. Brexit sent a lot of left leaning folk to unite with the right wing position on a single issue.

But watching the infighting hitting Labour every 5 mins would be like watching the Greens tear themselves apart over wind power vs its impact on wildlife

I remember James O'brien being called a Red Tory and then McLeftist Loon in the same hour of a show by Labour callers.

Each time he tookapart their term asking what does thst mean - Red Tory was privatise NHS, sell out to fat cats and business - nope not for those. Leftist was giving away other people's money and handouts - nope means testing + also is tax not every gov spending other people's money. The Tories don't pay out of their own.

See how all this stupid childish tropery infighting is just doomed.

Edited by Staffsknot
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I think the question on this thread misses the point.

The demographics we have now mean that the older house-owners with private pensions have the electoral power. In order to win an election you have to unfortunately appeal to this sector. One way (for example) could be to say "we will double the state pension in five years - why should our pensioners get far less than European countries?"  Of course that would need paying for, maybe a combination of higher national insurance, stamp duty and care home fees etc etc. But the point is to get the oldsters votes.

The Labour leader who realises this has a chance of winning in England.

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41 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

 

Unregulated free market capitalism brought us to this point. It allows pricing errors to accumulate without limit until the point of systemic collapse is reached (see 2008). Socialism is the only corrective. Regulated markets to correct the inefficiencies that externalities, cartelism, speculation and hoarding etc cause; and public ownership wherever natural monopolies are found to exist, or physical constraints make costly market failures inevitable (see Enron).

 

I pretty much agree with all that but fail to see why the answer must be socialism. Why equate strong regulation with socialism.

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53 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

 

Unregulated free market capitalism brought us to this point. It allows pricing errors to accumulate without limit until the point of systemic collapse is reached (see 2008). Socialism is the only corrective. Regulated markets to correct the inefficiencies that externalities, cartelism, speculation and hoarding etc cause; and public ownership wherever natural monopolies are found to exist, or physical constraints make costly market failures inevitable (see Enron).

 

The corrective is a move back to the middle and capitalism with a small c - which Johnson is doing under dopey Labour's nose anyway. Hartlepool has had massive government money spent and the promise of more in the last eighteen months. Its a Red Tory or Blue labour approach. The problem is the lose, lose, lose, lose, Blair, Blair, Blair, lose lose lose Labour party won't adopt national pride policies  like at least considering immigration controls so the most successful party the UK has ever known will shape shift and carry on.

This made me laugh 

'I'd sooner vote Green than vote for Starmer. The further he takes the party to the right the less likely I am ever to come back'

You don't get it do you - The UK White, BAME, Whatever class does not like extreme left politics they are anti aspiration and continually being called stupid because we aspire isn't exactly the best marketing campaign. 

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21 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

The corrective is a move back to the middle and capitalism with a small c - which Johnson is doing under dopey Labour's nose anyway. Hartlepool has had massive government money spent and the promise of more in the last eighteen months. Its a Red Tory or Blue labour approach. The problem is the lose, lose, lose, lose, Blair, Blair, Blair, lose lose lose Labour party won't adopt national pride policies  like at least considering immigration controls so the most successful party the UK has ever known will shape shift and carry on.

This made me laugh 

'I'd sooner vote Green than vote for Starmer. The further he takes the party to the right the less likely I am ever to come back'

You don't get it do you - The UK White, BAME, Whatever class does not like extreme left politics they are anti aspiration and continually being called stupid because we aspire isn't exactly the best marketing campaign. 

"lose, lose, lose, lose, Blair, Blair, Blair, lose lose lose" lose

you missed a lose at the end

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30 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

The corrective is a move back to the middle and capitalism with a small c - 

It's not just a political shift required, but a practical one. Historically Northern 'safe' Labour voting constituencies had local MPs from in or near the community. These days Labour Head Office abuses these safe seats by parachuting cosmopolitan out of touch upper middle class Londoners into these safe seats instead. Nothing against middle class Londoners. But it's not representation.

Non Labour voters would vote for the old school proper local MPs because they were good and you could literally talk to them in the pub.

Edited by Si1
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Just now, Si1 said:

It's not just a political shift required, but a practical one. Historically Northern 'safe' Labour voting constituencies had local MPs from in or near the community. These days Labour Head Office abuses these safe seats by parachuting cosmopolitan out of touch upper middle class Londoners into these safe seats instead. Nothing against middle class Londoners. But it's not representation.

Non Labour voters would vote for the old school proper local MPs because they were good.

Well your different to me :) I dislike  middle class Londoners with their sharp elbows and patronising ways having been born in Archway North London a stones throw from the socially cleansed Kentish Town where my Mums family were from. Your analysis is spot on - good local MP's of any colour rosette can engender respect and votes

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5 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

Well your different to me :) I dislike  middle class Londoners with their sharp elbows and patronising ways having been born in Archway North London a stones throw from the socially cleansed Kentish Town where my Mums family were from. Your analysis is spot on - good local MP's of any colour rosette can engender respect and votes

One anonymous old school Labour MP said the most fraudulent thing he ever did was car share with MPs from neighbouring constituencies to or from London but claim the train fair!

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52 minutes ago, Si1 said:

One anonymous old school Labour MP said the most fraudulent thing he ever did was car share with MPs from neighbouring constituencies to or from London but claim the train fair!

The issue is not that it was done, but had got away with doing it.....sets a precedent for the future, all doing it together, many wrongs make it right.;)

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20 hours ago, scepticus said:

First thing for a labour replacement party is to ban the phrase tory-scum. Big turn off for 75% of the electorate I reckon, most of whom are grown-ups.

This and slagging off the people they need to get their hands on power.

When I go oop noorth Labour is viewed as anti British or at least anti the British folk living there.

The conservatives are more ideologically fluid and want power over purity.  They also will face a reckoning as just as Labour are a city area posh party deluded its working class, the tories may well find that their new MPs and voters are not posh and their needs run in contradiction with the old guard and party donors.  

Labour are a bit ******ed at the moment two target groups which are pole apart.   

Edited by Fromage Frais
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23 hours ago, FANG said:

After Sir Keir Rodney Starmer I actually think the labour party are now finished and will eventually go into a slow decline.

Unless they can elect a strong leader who is in tune with the people of this country and can stop the Tories from being the ruling party for the next 50 years.  

In many ways he is a good choice for leader (just look at the rest of them).

He's stuck though, because the Labour Party has been taken over by Identity Politics.  This is what is the big turn-off for traditional Labour voters.  It's certainly turned me off, and many people that I know.

His only hope is to rout out the woke members and restore the party to its roots.  Has he got the will to do so?

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4 hours ago, kzb said:

In many ways he is a good choice for leader (just look at the rest of them).

He's stuck though, because the Labour Party has been taken over by Identity Politics.  This is what is the big turn-off for traditional Labour voters.  It's certainly turned me off, and many people that I know.

His only hope is to rout out the woke members and restore the party to its roots.  Has he got the will to do so?

He is not a scrapper that's the problem. Everyone talks about Blair but it was Kinnock who took on the left and had shite pushed through his letterbox - its like being a whistle blower tough gig

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4 hours ago, GregBowman said:

The corrective is a move back to the middle and capitalism with a small c - which Johnson is doing under dopey Labour's nose anyway. Hartlepool has had massive government money spent and the promise of more in the last eighteen months. Its a Red Tory or Blue labour approach. The problem is the lose, lose, lose, lose, Blair, Blair, Blair, lose lose lose Labour party won't adopt national pride policies  like at least considering immigration controls so the most successful party the UK has ever known will shape shift and carry on.

This made me laugh 

'I'd sooner vote Green than vote for Starmer. The further he takes the party to the right the less likely I am ever to come back'

You don't get it do you - The UK White, BAME, Whatever class does not like extreme left politics they are anti aspiration and continually being called stupid because we aspire isn't exactly the best marketing campaign. 

 

No. The problem is that free market capitalism fell over and died in 2008 and rather than reform the economy to reflect that reality its corpse has been propped up with public money ever since. Even more incredibly that feat has been accomplished via a seemingly endless succession of subsidies and handouts to the international banking criminals directly responsible for the collapse. And while your Tory [email protected] pals rhapsodise endlessly about the market pricing mechanism, the striking absence of same from the housing market - the biggest and most significant purchase most of us will ever make - is propelling the UK headlong towards a sovereign debt default and national bankruptcy.

National pride? In China, perhaps.

Quislings, turncoats and traitors the lot of them. 👇

UK-Headline-News-David-Cameron-Treats-Ch

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4 hours ago, kzb said:

In many ways he is a good choice for leader (just look at the rest of them).

He's stuck though, because the Labour Party has been taken over by Identity Politics.  This is what is the big turn-off for traditional Labour voters.  It's certainly turned me off, and many people that I know.

His only hope is to rout out the woke members and restore the party to its roots.  Has he got the will to do so?

 

Rout out the 'woke' members? How do you propose to do that?

WTF do you have to do to earn the moniker 'woke'? I've been singing JC's praises for the last four years, does that make me woke too?

:lol:

 

 

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6 hours ago, scepticus said:

I pretty much agree with all that but fail to see why the answer must be socialism. Why equate strong regulation with socialism.

The private sector is much too indebted to reform itself. Public sector investment is the only way we'll avoid bankruptcy, by holding up the economy as the private sector de-leverages.

A mixed market economy is the only way of ensuring the same thing doesn't happen again.

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4 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

The private sector is much too indebted to reform itself. Public sector investment is the only way we'll avoid bankruptcy, by holding up the economy as the private sector de-leverages.

A mixed market economy is the only way of ensuring the same thing doesn't happen again.

Public sector spending isn't the only way and probably not sustainable long term anyway although useful in the short term.

The indebted private sector dinosaurs should be left to die or dissolve or whatever and newer sme companies take their place would be the other way...small is beautiful I say. Neither political party is interested and certianly not Labour.

Most of the public spending your thinking of will end up in big existing companies like serco and not reinvigorate anything in isolation as it's a variation of printing money for the finance sector.

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