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Who will be the next Labour leader and can they unify the party to eventually beat the conservatives


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After Sir Keir Rodney Starmer I actually think the labour party are now finished and will eventually go into a slow decline.

Unless they can elect a strong leader who is in tune with the people of this country and can stop the Tories from being the ruling party for the next 50 years.  

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Shouldn’t the aim be to help people?

it’s not a soccer game. tho I see how in two party first past the post system the purpose of government is lost and for many it becomes about which jersey they wear not about the lack of underwear 

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18 minutes ago, FANG said:

After Sir Keir Rodney Starmer I actually think the labour party are now finished and will eventually go into a slow decline.

Unless they can elect a strong leader who is in tune with the people of this country and can stop the Tories from being the ruling party for the next 50 years.  

 

The Tories have been in office for 84 out of the past 100 years!

We haven't elected a genuine left of centre govt for nearly half a century.

England is a one party state already, in essence, thanks to FPTP.

 

Looking for an explanation of where we are now then that should be your first port of call.

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18 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

We haven't elected a genuine left of centre govt for nearly half a century.

It should be clear by now that the country does not want a significantly left of centre government. I don't think ditching FPTP would really change that.

That said, there is a very wide range of policy choices that could characterise "non tory" centrist and centre-right parties. Possibly labour does need to die a death so that such an entity could take its place with a clean slate.

I think there is much room for a "fair play party" that does not subscribe to the full unfunded progressive/social justice aspects of the Labour manifesto but which does advocate a much more level playing field, sensible economic policies and practical, achievable societal and environmental goals, without being burdened by the baggage of expansion of the state sector.

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If Murdoch dies and removes much of the political cover.

If 2 factions of Labour camp realise being in gov is first step to changing people's lives not who has voting rights on the biscuits decision at member meetings, so stops hacking at each other. Especially Momentum leadership who are transfixed with getting even and being the dominant force / would willingly hand Tories the keys if it meant hammering another Blairite.

If they find someone with grandstanding ability but who is also good at pulling up gov in intervening and not say daft things or just miss open goals because they have a prepared statement. Oh and for god's sake not somebody who you can dismiss as being a mate to (insert group with dubious paramilitary past)

Corbyn - great with a megaphone, useless at cross examination. Starmer seems too reserved for rally rousing but by god he's much better than Corbyn at PMQs ( the real version not the filter appliedto Corbyn as he was crap at it but not as crap as media soundbites show).

Finally accept taking further left will make them stand out but be ignored. Each move to centre pushes Tories further right and that can't square with their friends in the North who don't have BUPA to fall back on if they close the A&E.

Lastly if the gov won't sanction a Covid inquiry do an independent one and make sure it sticks.

At the minute Momentum are going about talking like they want to become the cartoon leftist badguys of Who Dares Wins with Lewis Collins. FFS try and get elected.

 

 

Edited by Staffsknot
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55 minutes ago, scepticus said:

I think there is much room for a "fair play party" that does not subscribe to the full unfunded progressive/social justice aspects of the Labour manifesto but which does advocate a much more level playing field, sensible economic policies and practical, achievable societal and environmental goals, without being burdened by the baggage of expansion of the state sector.

Could not have put it better

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The Labour Party has been hollowed out, there are no longer any politicians with the ability to communicate and connect with the electorate. Decades of Labour central office parachuting mediocre candidates into seats, against the wishes of locals and abuse of all women shortlists, have left the party a talent free vacuum. The goal was to populate the Labour party with sheep, who would always do what the leadership said and could be relied on to repeat whatever vacuous soundbite the party had come up with this week.

The New Labour wing of the party has no power base in the country, can't connect with voters but the alternative is no better. Corbyn easily destroyed the New Labour wing of the party in the leadership vote but he represented the rump of the loony left, which never had any chance of winning an election.

That I'm afraid is the choice facing Labour, the loony left or red tories. With the only thing unifying both wings is a belief in toxic identity politics, which may well play well in student unions but is electoral poison for the Labour Party.

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1 hour ago, zugzwang said:

 

The Tories have been in office for 84 out of the past 100 years!

We haven't elected a genuine left of centre govt for nearly half a century.

England is a one party state already, in essence, thanks to FPTP.

 

Looking for an explanation of where we are now then that should be your first port of call.

Forget Andy Burnham he is not leadership material. And I know leadership material when I see it. What the Labour party needs is a man with a plan. That man is the Count. Ladies and Gentlemen I give you Count Binface. The only man who can rid this country of Tory scum.

Image

 

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1 hour ago, scepticus said:

It should be clear by now that the country does not want a significantly left of centre government. I don't think ditching FPTP would really change that.

That said, there is a very wide range of policy choices that could characterise "non tory" centrist and centre-right parties. Possibly labour does need to die a death so that such an entity could take its place with a clean slate.

I think there is much room for a "fair play party" that does not subscribe to the full unfunded progressive/social justice aspects of the Labour manifesto but which does advocate a much more level playing field, sensible economic policies and practical, achievable societal and environmental goals, without being burdened by the baggage of expansion of the state sector.

 

It's not at all clear that the country doesn't want a significantly left-of-centre govt! Many of proposals in the Corbyn manifesto enjoyed considerable popular support. The working poor are all too aware of the shortcomings of unregulated free market capitalism; they have of course been on the receiving end of most of them. Moreover, we should seek to introduce progressive economic reform as a matter of principle. The alternative is an inexorable slide into bankruptcy, as evidenced by the runaway national debt.

 

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51 minutes ago, bartelbe said:

The Labour Party has been hollowed out, there are no longer any politicians with the ability to communicate and connect with the electorate. Decades of Labour central office parachuting mediocre candidates into seats, against the wishes of locals and abuse of all women shortlists, have left the party a talent free vacuum. The goal was to populate the Labour party with sheep, who would always do what the leadership said and could be relied on to repeat whatever vacuous soundbite the party had come up with this week.

The New Labour wing of the party has no power base in the country, can't connect with voters but the alternative is no better. Corbyn easily destroyed the New Labour wing of the party in the leadership vote but he represented the rump of the loony left, which never had any chance of winning an election.

That I'm afraid is the choice facing Labour, the loony left or red tories. With the only thing unifying both wings is a belief in toxic identity politics, which may well play well in student unions but is electoral poison for the Labour Party.

 

Not true. The Hartlepool result was a rejection of Starmer not an affirmation of Bozo. The Labour vote stayed at home.

The same shit sandwich but with slightly thicker bread has very limited appeal.

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53 minutes ago, bartelbe said:

That I'm afraid is the choice facing Labour, the loony left or red tories

In a separate thread you said the country is conservative small c - that's the very definition of red Tory so not trying to put you in a box but you seem conflicted on your points.

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1 minute ago, zugzwang said:

Not true. The Hartlepool result was a rejection of Starmer

Tbh it also had a chunk of Momentum score settling and that's just pathetic.

As an outside observer it needs drumming home that headbutting a wall then claiming the leader failed in their duty of care is pretty sh!t as a plan. Maybe try getting in power instead of trying to be the controlling force in a wilderness opposition

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13 minutes ago, scepticus said:

First thing for a labour replacement party is to ban the phrase tory-scum. Big turn off for 75% of the electorate I reckon, most of whom are grown-ups.

Really - I beg to differ

 

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6 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

 

It's not at all clear that the country doesn't want a significantly left-of-centre govt! Many of proposals in the Corbyn manifesto enjoyed considerable popular support. The working poor are all too aware of the shortcomings of unregulated free market capitalism; they have of course been on the receiving end of most of them. Moreover, we should seek to introduce progressive economic reform as a matter of principle. The alternative is an inexorable slide into bankruptcy, as evidenced by the runaway national debt.

 

If that were true labour would have a far better record than they do. No doubt there is a significant section of the poorer part of our country that would agree with you but it appears that actually there is not enough of them. In a two party system, that means the idea is doomed.

Much better to have a less-lefty party which commands a greater part of the UKs hearts and minds and which is clear on the shortcomings of unregulated free market capitalism (URFMC). There is no need to conflate stating the obvious about URFMC (which is a net vote winner I am sure, as you suggest) with orthogonal policy components around identity politics, state sector expansion, rejoining the EU, immigration and benefits.

The worst aspects of URFMC can be dealt with fairly straight forwardly without needing to invoke any of that stuff.

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2 hours ago, scepticus said:

It should be clear by now that the country does not want a significantly left of centre government. I don't think ditching FPTP would really change that.

That said, there is a very wide range of policy choices that could characterise "non tory" centrist and centre-right parties. Possibly labour does need to die a death so that such an entity could take its place with a clean slate.

I think there is much room for a "fair play party" that does not subscribe to the full unfunded progressive/social justice aspects of the Labour manifesto but which does advocate a much more level playing field, sensible economic policies and practical, achievable societal and environmental goals, without being burdened by the baggage of expansion of the state sector.

You can subscribe to them, many non dinosaur Conservatives do, but any party seeking a majority needs to recognise that banging on about them over more day to day issues is a vote loser.  

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Not that I particularly thought he was a good leader, but the press and Tories had a blooming cheek to describe Corbin as a scruff......look at who is running the joint at the moment.....this country desperately needs a strong, honest leader with integrity.......just got to put up with it until we do.;)

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4 hours ago, zugzwang said:

 

The Tories have been in office for 84 out of the past 100 years!

We haven't elected a genuine left of centre govt for nearly half a century.

 

So what that means is in just 16 years in power Labour managed to spunk the wealth created by 84 years of good fiscal policy and saving done by the Conservatives. 

Well done, hope you stay out of power you idiots. 

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UKIP and the Tories already disproved the "most voters are in the centre" theory. UKIP started peeling away large numbers of core Tory voters from the right, the Tories moved right to stem the losses, now the Tories are picking up more votes than they were when they were closer to the centre. If the "most voters are in the centre" theory was true the Tories should have lost a lot of votes to the Lib Dems or Starmer's Labour. They didn't.

Maybe the same thing will happen to Labour. A series of uninspiring and electorally unsuccessful centrist leaders, leftwing voters bleed away to voting for small parties or not voting at all, eventually Labour itself moves left to recapture them or is replaced wholesale by a new left wing party.

40+ years of rising inequality means the UK is a deeply divided country now. There are not many people left in the centre.

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25 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

UKIP and the Tories already disproved the "most voters are in the centre" theory. UKIP started peeling away large numbers of core Tory voters from the right, the Tories moved right to stem the losses, now the Tories are picking up more votes than they were when they were closer to the centre. If the "most voters are in the centre" theory was true the Tories should have lost a lot of votes to the Lib Dems or Starmer's Labour. They didn't.

Maybe the same thing will happen to Labour. A series of uninspiring and electorally unsuccessful centrist leaders, leftwing voters bleed away to voting for small parties or not voting at all, eventually Labour itself moves left to recapture them or is replaced wholesale by a new left wing party.

40+ years of rising inequality means the UK is a deeply divided country now. There are not many people left in the centre.

Probably half the voters don't give a rats ass about left, centre or right, they simply vote for whom they perceive as least worst at the time. So leader personality comes into play, as do core issues that transcend left and right like the north south divide, brexit, immigration, racism, housing, economy (i.e. how rich or economically threatened people feel, not ideals like free markets or socialism).

A nation of many 10s of millions of people with highly diverse life experiences, racial background and such a long national history suddenly all densely connected by fibre optics and social media and just through a crazy pandemic simply cannot any longer, IMO, be calibrated on 1 dimensional line. People are much less one dimensional than they used to be, in terms of politics.

The "centre" is at the very least now a centre on a surface, i.e. 2-dimensional, and in reality more likely the "centre" is the centre of a sphere.

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5 hours ago, markyh said:

So what that means is in just 16 years in power Labour managed to spunk the wealth created by 84 years of good fiscal policy and saving done by the Conservatives. 

Well done, hope you stay out of power you idiots. 

 

Says the Bitcoin guy who thinks sterling is worthless!

Nothing you say makes the first bit of sense.

Edited by zugzwang
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