Anyone else disillusioned by both the right and the left?

[lombardo]

I am a left leaning liberal but in recent year the woke lot have changed the face of left-wing politics. The likes of Tony Benn would not recognise the modern young left as being on his own. Even Corbyn may be hated by the woke lot.

However I am not right-wing so I am left with no side to support.

Is my sentiment rare, or do many people hold it too? It must be difficult for some traditionally conservative people in the USA who see Trumpism and and no longer feel like they belong to the GOP.

[Price doubt]

I expect most of us have felt politically homeless for much of the history of "democracy". I consider myself liberal, but sick to the stomach with the undebatable woke and cancel culture being thrust down my throat. I breathed a sigh of relief when Cameron came in promising to make housing affordable and balance the books again 😆 but every time HMG offers a "help to" policy it makes things worse. They REALLY missed an opportunity then to raise interest rate, have a reset and blame everything on Gordon Brown. I believe in encouraging equal opportunities for all and supporting the underdog but also that many UK social policies, tax credits and the NHS are the root cause of many of our permanent underdog class and mass immigration problems and the calibre of the average Labour MP brings tears to the eyes. In the end we just have to hold our noses and vote for the least-worst politician (thus getting the politicians we deserve) while doing what little we can to make our world a better place.

 

[Data Dave]

On 3/19/2021 at 10:48 PM, lombardo said:

I am a left leaning liberal but in recent year the woke lot have changed the face of left-wing politics. The likes of Tony Benn would not recognise the modern young left as being on his own. Even Corbyn may be hated by the woke lot.

However I am not right-wing so I am left with no side to support.

Is my sentiment rare, or do many people hold it too? It must be difficult for some traditionally conservative people in the USA who see Trumpism and and no longer feel like they belong to the GOP.

Your still left, you just a different left to the others you dont identify with surely? More than one type of left and right...

 

On 3/22/2021 at 2:35 PM, Price doubt said:

offers a "help to" policy it makes things worse

MP's and political parties need votes....

 

We need them to do the 'hard' stuff that isnt so popular. Like putting money aside each year [like we tell our kids too do] for a rainy day, not get us into a budget deficit each year. Or am I old fashioned?

[dugsbody]

36 minutes ago, Data Dave said:

We need them to do the 'hard' stuff that isnt so popular. Like putting money aside each year [like we tell our kids too do] for a rainy day, not get us into a budget deficit each year. Or am I old fashioned?

That sounds like an intuitive thing to believe. "No magic money tree".

Going to be harder and harder to convince people of this while central banks are just printing money to prop up the assets of the asset holding classes with seemingly zero downsides (for them).

[dugsbody]

Yes, I am disillusioned with them all. The only thing that will bring me back is if they change our voting system to something approaching democracy. Until then it is just another rigged game, like all the other rigged games.

[Hectors House]

I think Boris is the biggest disaster to UK politics, and everything is so nasty these days, I've always been the floating liberal, the trouble is New Labour has been replaced by extreme left wing extremists, I do wonder if the Socialist Workers Party is calling the shots in the Labour Party these days?

The thing that I have noticed is the nosiy left wing demos always seems to orchestrated by Marxists and they seem to be hooking a lot of young people with lies and subversion.

I remember 1997 when New Labour swept in and kicked out the Nasty Party, there was a good vibe going on, especially when Katrina and the Waves won eurovision.

Also I think a lot of anto UK felling in Wales and Scotland is being orchestrated by outside forces, an example is Welsh not British, it turns out this is actually funded by Sinn Fein, they want the UK to break up so as there thinking goes Northern Ireland will join the irish republic!

Oh! and has anyone seem the Northumbria Independence Party!

[zugzwang]

We haven't had a genuine left-of-centre govt for more than forty years!

If Jeremy Corbyn's to blame for our national disgrace then he must be leading a double life.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/11/tory-mps-claim-almost-3m-in-housing-rent-on-expenses

The Observer has identified 42 Conservative MPs who claim their own rent on expenses while at the same time renting out other residential properties for at least £10,000 a year in income. Among them are:

Kevin Hollinrake, who claimed £2,925 each month from April to November while owning a share of five different rental properties in York.

Paul Howell, elected in 2019 for the “red wall” seat of Sedgefield, who claimed £1,917.50 every month from April to November while renting out 16 different houses and flats across County Durham.

Paul Bristow, who claimed £10,500 of his own rent on expenses between April and November while renting out three residential properties in London.

Sixteen Tory MPs rent out residential property in London, according to the parliamentary register of interests, while claiming their own rent on expenses. They include Liam Fox, Geoffrey Cox, James Cleverly and Philip Davies.

[pig]

On 11/04/2021 at 19:05, Hectors House said:

I think Boris is the biggest disaster to UK politics, and everything is so nasty these days, I've always been the floating liberal, the trouble is New Labour has been replaced by extreme left wing extremists, I do wonder if the Socialist Workers Party is calling the shots in the Labour Party these days?

The thing that I have noticed is the nosiy left wing demos always seems to orchestrated by Marxists and they seem to be hooking a lot of young people with lies and subversion.

I remember 1997 when New Labour swept in and kicked out the Nasty Party, there was a good vibe going on, especially when Katrina and the Waves won eurovision.

Also I think a lot of anto UK felling in Wales and Scotland is being orchestrated by outside forces, an example is Welsh not British, it turns out this is actually funded by Sinn Fein, they want the UK to break up so as there thinking goes Northern Ireland will join the irish republic!

Oh! and has anyone seem the Northumbria Independence Party!

Both Labour and the Conservatives have always had their 'Far' element. Its just a question of what kind of influence the 'Far' element has within the party.

We do have a peculiar situation where these elements for various reasons have had the opportunity to wag the dog. If that looks like its permanent problem that in itself might be a strong argument for PR.

[msi]

There is no 'Left'.   You have punch-you-in-the-face Right and Tell-you-i'm-sorry-but-punch-you-in-the-face slightly less Right.

 

The question to ask is why is this the case.  Who has changed the political landscape to suit themselves.

[Sackboii]

2 hours ago, msi said:

There is no 'Left'.   You have punch-you-in-the-face Right and Tell-you-i'm-sorry-but-punch-you-in-the-face slightly less Right.

Really..? More like 'shit-on-you-workers-by-clobbering-you-with-more-taxes' Left (current Government) and 'we'll-tax-you-even-more-if-we-win-the-next-election-to-pay-for-even-more-lazy-assed-beer-swilling-benefits-grabbing-Ibiza-holidaying-tobacco-addicts-who-pi55ed-their-life's-earnings-away-in-the-Bookies' Loony Left (prospective Labour Government).

I'm with the OP. There's a political party void that simply affords the silent majority no choice.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Sackboii

[msi]

11 minutes ago, Sackboii said:

Really..? More like 'shit-on-you-workers-by-clobbering-you-with-more-taxes' Left (current Government) and 'we'll-tax-you-even-more-if-we-win-the-next-election-to-pay-for-even-more-lazy-assed-beer-swilling-benefits-grabbing-Ibiza-holidaying-tobacco-addicts-who-pi55ed-their-life's-earnings-away-in-the-Bookies' Loony Left (prospective Labour Government).

I'm with the OP. There's a political party void that simply affords the silent majority no choice.

You think the current crop of Tories are left wing? 

Put down the crack pipe and stop reading the Daily Fail

[Sackboii]

3 minutes ago, msi said:

You think the current crop of Tories are left wing?

Well they certainly ain't Right wing!

[msi]

8 minutes ago, Sackboii said:

Well they certainly ain't Right wing!

They're not small c conservative.  We need a full discussion on what being Right or Left really is without the drooling loons, entrenched elites, and extreme media.  Once you do that I'm pretty sure the differences would be small enough to work out.

[Sackboii]

Exactly.

Well put it another way, if we have a scale of -10 to +10 representing extreme Left wing (communist) and extreme Right wing (Nazi) the current Governmen is in my view somewhere around the +1 mark at best/worse (depending on your left/right viewpoint).

What I think we need as a solid +3-4.

It's all academic anyway, the choices are the choices for whatever reasons, and we're stuck with them.

We cast our vote depending on where in that scale we feel we are. It's only the centre-point that changes from one person to the next which defines whether something is 'Left' or 'Right'.

[msi]

2 minutes ago, Sackboii said:

It's all academic anyway, the choices are the choices for whatever reasons, and we're stuck with them.

 

Who wants this status quo and who wants you to think you're stuck with them

[Sackboii]

We're all stuck with the choices of political party until another one more suited to one's outlook comes along.

[Mandalorian]

1 hour ago, Sackboii said:

Exactly.

Well put it another way, if we have a scale of -10 to +10 representing extreme Left wing (communist) and extreme Right wing (Nazi) the current Governmen is in my view somewhere around the +1 mark at best/worse (depending on your left/right viewpoint).

What I think we need as a solid +3-4.

It's all academic anyway, the choices are the choices for whatever reasons, and we're stuck with them.

We cast our vote depending on where in that scale we feel we are. It's only the centre-point that changes from one person to the next which defines whether something is 'Left' or 'Right'.

The Nazis (NSDAP - National Socialist German Workers' Party) were not right wing.  They were very much left wing.  The big clue is in their economic policies and the second in their name.

The left's greatest (and probably only) achievement is getting Hitler associated with being right wing.

[Sackboii]

1 hour ago, Mandalorian said:

The left's greatest (and probably only) achievement is getting Hitler associated with being right wing.

Well, everyday is a school day as they say.. I didn’t know that, thanks for the insight.

My point stands however.

[Lucky Larry]

On 1/25/2023 at 5:38 PM, Mandalorian said:

The Nazis (NSDAP - National Socialist German Workers' Party) were not right wing.  They were very much left wing.  The big clue is in their economic policies and the second in their name.

The left's greatest (and probably only) achievement is getting Hitler associated with being right wing.

In the same way the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea proves that North Korea is really a democracy? Extreme left and extreme right both end up with a small elite group at the top dictating policy , they are dictatorships. Mussolini defined fascism as the merger of corporation and state . The current UK Govt do not act in the best interests of the electorate they act in the interests of the corporations that fund them. , the move to banning protests and outlawing strikes and the removal of the human rights act isn't to ensure people have more or better rights it's to ensure the corporations have more power and control over the employees. The current left wing option for UK voters is a Torylite version of Cameron with Starmer at the helm who promotes them as the party of business. His future funding will come from the Corporate machine not the Unions 

[Up the spout]

The current Tory Party is... insert your own passionate adjectives here.

In 2019, Labour won 202 seats - its lowest number since 1935. Thatcher lasted 11 years and even John Major 6, but we just had a prime minister who lasted 44 days before resigning. Then Sunak was chosen without having to reveal a single policy or position, or enter into any debate, and he's the fourth PM in 42 months.

It was only July when over 50 of Johnson’s ministers and aides resigned within 50 hours, arguing he wasn't fit for office, and even the Tory media agreed. Yet now, only a few months later, some of that number argue that Johnson can 'save' the party. And all of this is in the vast shadow of Brexit, when we should be convincing allies that we still are a credible partner. 

The current Tory Party is imploding, and taking the UK with it.

[Staffsknot]

On 1/25/2023 at 4:38 PM, Mandalorian said:

The Nazis (NSDAP - National Socialist German Workers' Party) were not right wing.  They were very much left wing.  The big clue is in their economic policies and the second in their name.

The left's greatest (and probably only) achievement is getting Hitler associated with being right wing.

This is made up ****** - you say they are left wing because of the name, historians, people who actually know things say they were right wing.

You are in a tiny minority of people who think the Nazis were left wing.

The Nazis had a lot of ex members of Dr Kapp's supporters and they actively fought the left.

The Nazis were thought to be the answer to left wing parties getting strength by businesses - hence Von Papen and others getting them on board to take on the Communist Party.

[Staffsknot]

On 1/25/2023 at 6:04 PM, Sackboii said:

Well, everyday is a school day as they say.. I didn’t know that, thanks for the insight.

My point stands however.

Nope its ****** that he was talking. The Nazis are left wing only in right wing forum fever dreams

[zugzwang]

There Is No Alternative to the neo-liberal, free market Washington consensus.

This man is a swivel-eyed loon.  👇

[Staffsknot]

53 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

This man is a swivel-eyed loon. 

Bit harsh Zug he was just an useless indecisive leader who delivered sermons and missed open goals, not a swivel eyed loon.

[Mandalorian]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:58 AM, Staffsknot said:

This is made up ****** - you say they are left wing because of the name, historians, people who actually know things say they were right wing.

You are in a tiny minority of people who think the Nazis were left wing.

The Nazis had a lot of ex members of Dr Kapp's supporters and they actively fought the left.

The Nazis were thought to be the answer to left wing parties getting strength by businesses - hence Von Papen and others getting them on board to take on the Communist Party.

Wrong.  I say the NSDAP were left wing because of the policies.  Not just because it is in their name.  Actions first, words second.

I note your tactic of 'appeal to authority' by citing "historians" (vague - so whoever they may be).  Doesn't wash with me.