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Public Sector Pay Freeze To Pay For Furlough Overspend


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https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55011477

"Millions of public sector workers face pay freeze

By Faisal Islam
Economics editor

Millions of public sector workers in England face a pay freeze next year, the BBC has learned.

The 5.5 million affected include key workers lauded for their service during the pandemic, from the armed forces and police, to teachers and civil servants.

But it is expected that NHS workers would be exempt from a freeze, to reflect efforts during the pandemic.

The Treasury is trying to bolster public finances after a huge rise in spending to fight coronavirus.

Government borrowing hit its highest October level ever last month as the UK continued heavy spending to support the economy during the coronavirus pandemic."

 

 

Looks like the public sector is going to take a big part of the hit for the government wasting billions keeping people in non jobs for 12 months, with the never ending furlough scheme.

I can see plenty of strikes and public services being cut in 2021.  It's all a bit of a shambles

 

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Looks like the public sector is going to take a big part of the hit for the government wasting billions keeping people in non jobs for 12 months, with the never ending furlough scheme.

I can see plenty of strikes and public services being cut in 2021.  It's all a bit of a shambles

This is one case where if we did live in the UBI world that you want the same thing would have occurred - expenditure on UBI is the same, tax income falls off a cliff.

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Just like the aftermath of the 2008/9 great recession, I think there won't be that much uproar as job security is very poor right now which means employees in the public sector will just sack it up and accept a pay freeze - at least they won't be unemployed. Not saying this is right but that's how I see this playing out.

I'm still waiting for the unemployment rate to shoot up but I'll also be monitoring hours worked more closely which is probably more of a true reflection of economic activity right now.

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This is one case where if we did live in the UBI world that you want the same thing would have occurred - expenditure on UBI is the same, tax income falls off a cliff.

Yeah true, but the upside would be that all public sector workers would get UBI too.  At the moment some are paying for others to sit at home until April 2021.

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Yeah true, but the upside would be that all public sector workers would get UBI too.  At the moment some are paying for others to sit at home until April 2021.

Yes, in theory to return to jobs and contribute back.

Oh wait, here comes some 'surprise' redundancies timed for May / June 2021.

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Things there's money for:

12 billion pounds for a test and trace system (ran by the wife of a Tory) that doesn't even work.

21 million pounds for a finders fee to a Spanish jewelery maker. 

200+ billion keeping failing companies and non-jobs alive. 

Countless 100s of millions for companies and people with links to the Conservative party.

16.5 billion increase for defense spending

 

Things theres not money for:

Hungry children

Public sector pay rises

A permanent increase in UC

 

Edited by Postman
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Things there's money for:

12 billion pounds for a test and trace system (ran by the wife of a Tory) that doesn't even work.

21 million pounds for a finders fee to a Spanish jewelery maker. 

200+ billion keeping failing companies and non-jobs alive. 

Countless millions for companies and people with links to the Conservative party.

16.5 billion increase for defense spending

 

Things theres not money for:

Hungry children

Public sector pay rises

A permanent increase in UC

 

 

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What we need is decent public services rather than spending ridiculous billions keeping non jobs and zombie companies alive.

 

It's a false equivalence to say good public services are de facto owing to highly paid public servants. In fact the opposite might be true because that limits how many can be employed.

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It's a false equivalence to say good public services are de facto owing to highly paid public servants. In fact the opposite might be true because that limits how many can be employed.

Yeah you have a point and I'm not sticking up for public sector freeloaders, but it does seem a bit poor asking many who have worked thoughout the pandemic, keeping vital services running, to take a cut so that the government can pay another load of wasters to sit at home for over a year drinking bottles of Corona. 

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Things there's money for:

12 billion pounds for a test and trace system (ran by the wife of a Tory) that doesn't even work.

21 million pounds for a finders fee to a Spanish jewelery maker. 

200+ billion keeping failing companies and non-jobs alive. 

Countless 100s of millions for companies and people with links to the Conservative party.

16.5 billion increase for defense spending

 

Things theres not money for:

Hungry children

Public sector pay rises

A permanent increase in UC

 

Spotted you on reddit haha..!

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Yes, in theory to return to jobs and contribute back.

Oh wait, here comes some 'surprise' redundancies timed for May / June 2021.

There's no surprise here - you know, I know, and you can for sure bet Rishi knows, not EVERY person on furlough will have a job to come back to.

It's an emergency measure that will at least have protected some of those jobs.

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Yeah you have a point and I'm not sticking up for public sector freeloaders, but it does seem a bit poor asking many who have worked thoughout the pandemic, keeping vital services running, to take a cut so that the government can pay another load of wasters to sit at home for over a year drinking bottles of Corona. 

The scary thing is it's so the government can pay for a load of wasters who've already been sat at home on furlough. I think @Si1 makes a good point, and to add I think this might be the most fair (read: least sh*t) way to pay off the damage.

And boy has the damage been done, people were crowing for lockdown not least the NHS who in fairness have been swamped and were reminding us how swamped they'd have been were there no lockdown. Now that the bill has arrived for that, maybe a silver lining is that we can use some of the inflation adjusted saving from this pay freeze to hire more Nurses/Doctors thus giving them some slack/a break, with the treasury using the rest to start footing some of the bill.

We'd all love to give the NHS a pay rise after covid AND more person-power resources, but everyone wanted this (lockdowns, furlough etc.) and we sadly don't live in fiscal fantasy land. Expect more harsh realities from the treasury in the coming months, tax grabs, cuts etc.

*full disclosure: sister is a nurse, brother a copper so big respect and I as a private sector employee am also on a pay freeze this year (as many, many more will be in the private sector)

Edited by CityLAD88888
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So the public sector workers that kept the country running are having another pay freeze to pay for . . . Dido Harding to buy another horse, Half price burgers and chips and for people to be sat at home for months.

From the basic consensus I've seen so far it appears the default position is along the lines of "I'm on furlough and would love to go back to my job so everyone else should be happy to accept a cut". I'm very sorry but if you are still on furlough you probably don't have a job to go back to and I would have been looking elsewhere by now, not sat on the sofa waiting for it magically reappear and being bitter about other people still having a job that is needed.

Plenty of private sector staff have been working non stop throughout lockdown. It's not private vs public sector it's essential vs non essential. e.g Not sure why are barman is bitter at a careworker for example as they are both being shafted the same way.

I just don't see how this can be real policy every single week there is another completely stupid decision that they make normal people pay for. All it takes is a quick bit of LOOK OVER THERE/ divide and rule and the masses lap it up.

How can these supposedly rich ministers be so bad with money. How about they stop wa%&ing our money away for one day of the week.

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They should have just paid out £500 a month in ubi to everyone. 

want more go to work and some still had to. 

https://www.employmentlawworldview.com/correcting-errors-in-furlough-claims-the-clock-is-ticking-uk/

Imagine you get rushed into an ill thought out scheme.

You have 20+ employees with variable hours maybe even a seasonal business.

You have to pay 5% towards it which you do and often you furlough people you could just lay off as not to do so would place them in poverty.

Then later on when those employees have mostly left as its 80% turnover in hospitality etc........HMRC come and audit you some year + later and fine you x 2.

My staff all have variable hours my accountant has now called me (2 weeks since I had to sit them down and furlough them) and told me maybe it would be better to furlough people at the same rate as the last furlough.

Err most of the work is done in the summer and people have been promoted/pay increased/changed roles since then so that would have been better to say at the time.  The scheme does not take into account the pain in the **** of sitting x number people down and getting them to actually agree to be furloughed.

So with the above in mind once the deadline is breached for returning to work (2nd December) I am going to lay off everyone who is in the cheaper than making redundant section.

Imagine some companies where nice enough to take people back whom had been laid off and furlough them.... imagine they do that then go bust next year which a lot will and then years later they get a fine which they are personally responsible for for x2.

Maybe the fraud will be so great this wont happen to folk whom have made claims that are genuine but who needs that stress.

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https://www.employmentlawworldview.com/correcting-errors-in-furlough-claims-the-clock-is-ticking-uk/

Imagine you get rushed into an ill thought out scheme.

You have 20+ employees with variable hours maybe even a seasonal business.

You have to pay 5% towards it which you do and often you furlough people you could just lay off as not to do so would place them in poverty.

Then later on when those employees have mostly left as its 80% turnover in hospitality etc........HMRC come and audit you some year + later and fine you x 2.

My staff all have variable hours my accountant has now called me (2 weeks since I had to sit them down and furlough them) and told me maybe it would be better to furlough people at the same rate as the last furlough.

Err most of the work is done in the summer and people have been promoted/pay increased/changed roles since then so that would have been better to say at the time.  The scheme does not take into account the pain in the **** of sitting x number people down and getting them to actually agree to be furloughed.

So with the above in mind once the deadline is breached for returning to work (2nd December) I am going to lay off everyone who is in the cheaper than making redundant section.

Imagine some companies where nice enough to take people back whom had been laid off and furlough them.... imagine they do that then go bust next year which a lot will and then years later they get a fine which they are personally responsible for for x2.

Maybe the fraud will be so great this wont happen to folk whom have made claims that are genuine but who needs that stress.

boris and his band of bell ends were trying to be clever and build a bridge over the damage of covid. Rightly it would have been far easier and probably cheaper to just pay everyone 500 then tighten belt or starve or work. mortgage holidays are ok though as they can kick the can and for most that`s the biggest expense. 

for you employers yes its a administrative nightmare when they are going to get dumped anyway why bother just cut your loses and let the state deal with it.  fairer all round too i have got £0 from this and entitled to £0 yet everyone is forced to lock down regardless.  

how many council houses could this money have built ? 

 

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boris and his band of bell ends were trying to be clever and build a bridge over the damage of covid. Rightly it would have been far easier and probably cheaper to just pay everyone 500 then tighten belt or starve or work. mortgage holidays are ok though as they can kick the can and for most that`s the biggest expense. 

for you employers yes its a administrative nightmare when they are going to get dumped anyway why bother just cut your loses and let the state deal with it.  fairer all round too i have got £0 from this and entitled to £0 yet everyone is forced to lock down regardless.  

how many council houses could this money have built ? 

 

Agreed.

Boris now has Trumps issue I cannot stand him now as he brings on feelings of indecision and weakness his brand is now toxic to me and I should be a died in the wool conservative.

If you are evil free market baby eating capitalist whom feels we should have no bailouts and done a Sweden you are politically homeless at that moment labour and scruffy Blair clone faux conservative are your only options.  I recon most will vote labour just for another face if an election now or in a few months.

Went to see a doctor last night (private as cannot get NHS appointments either) he is an old boy and used to be high up in the trust his contacts telling him that vaccine roll out wont be fully up and running until last quarter of next year!

He then went on to tell me that they have a quandary the preferable one is to keep everyone locked up get it really low and then roll out vaccine.  The other option is to open up mitigate and then rely on the option of the vaccine to save the day.

They are going to go for the first as that is the only one which allows politicians to declare victory and move on (even if it does not work /mutates by then).

If you go for the second option and it vaccine is a read herring then its panic.

Edited by Fromage Frais
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The scary thing is it's so the government can pay for a load of wasters who've already been sat at home on furlough. I think @Si1 makes a good point, and to add I think this might be the most fair (read: least sh*t) way to pay off the damage.

And boy has the damage been done, people were crowing for lockdown not least the NHS who in fairness have been swamped and were reminding us how swamped they'd have been were there no lockdown. Now that the bill has arrived for that, maybe a silver lining is that we can use some of the inflation adjusted saving from this pay freeze to hire more Nurses/Doctors thus giving them some slack/a break, with the treasury using the rest to start footing some of the bill.

We'd all love to give the NHS a pay rise after covid AND more person-power resources, but everyone wanted this (lockdowns, furlough etc.) and we sadly don't live in fiscal fantasy land. Expect more harsh realities from the treasury in the coming months, tax grabs, cuts etc.

*full disclosure: sister is a nurse, brother a copper so big respect and I as a private sector employee am also on a pay freeze this year (as many, many more will be in the private sector)

I feels like we do imho who the ****** is lending us money.

What happens when they change their mind, does the BOE just buy up all the debt.

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boris and his band of bell ends were trying to be clever and build a bridge over the damage of covid. Rightly it would have been far easier and probably cheaper to just pay everyone 500 then tighten belt or starve or work. mortgage holidays are ok though as they can kick the can and for most that`s the biggest expense. 

for you employers yes its a administrative nightmare when they are going to get dumped anyway why bother just cut your loses and let the state deal with it.  fairer all round too i have got £0 from this and entitled to £0 yet everyone is forced to lock down regardless.  

how many council houses could this money have built ? 

 

Council houses? 

Its going to be 400 billion before we are done. 

Now.. Reality is starting to sink in of erm impact, how many will be crowing for lockdown 3.0?...

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So the public sector workers that kept the country running are having another pay freeze to pay for . . . Dido Harding to buy another horse, Half price burgers and chips and for people to be sat at home for months.

From the basic consensus I've seen so far it appears the default position is along the lines of "I'm on furlough and would love to go back to my job so everyone else should be happy to accept a cut". I'm very sorry but if you are still on furlough you probably don't have a job to go back to and I would have been looking elsewhere by now, not sat on the sofa waiting for it magically reappear and being bitter about other people still having a job that is needed.

Plenty of private sector staff have been working non stop throughout lockdown. It's not private vs public sector it's essential vs non essential. e.g Not sure why are barman is bitter at a careworker for example as they are both being shafted the same way.

I just don't see how this can be real policy every single week there is another completely stupid decision that they make normal people pay for. All it takes is a quick bit of LOOK OVER THERE/ divide and rule and the masses lap it up.

How can these supposedly rich ministers be so bad with money. How about they stop wa%&ing our money away for one day of the week.

Were you crowing for lockdown? Lockdown 2.0? Soon to be lockdown 3.0? Don't open workplaces etc etc. 

Whether that was the right decsion or not is one argument. 

However what has always been the case and obvious it seems only to a few, is having made that choice all of us will be paying it off for the next 20 years plus.. Through increased taxes, lower pay and lower public services. 

Not realising that is being guilty of requesting all the food at a restaurant and been shocked at getting a bill. Being specific in cash here cash there is arguing over who had another glass of wine. All very interesting but misses the big picture. 

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