I'm giving in too.

[jimmy2x3]

well who cares. im 50 im past caring now. however im far better off than most that bought but i never really looked at it that way till recently. i have got me a nice council house cost 3200 a year and i pay a year in advance. i get that money by investing what was my housing deposit and the dividends even in this year pay that off, my portfolio even rises. so while you live in your house that you pay a mortgage on i live in a house that cost me far less and i dont even need to pay to repair it. meanwhile that homeowner usually has all his eggs in the housing basket and spends half his time and money repairing the thing. and you know the worse part, they will probably die and never reap the benifit of their great investment that they spend half their life talking about. 

 

so advice to them that have gace up, EMBRACE IT, het on the housing list for a decent area. buy yourself a nice home in spain or france for 20k-30k and watch all them scurry to work to pay off the mortgage that half of them will never benifit from. invest your savings to pay your bills, 50k and you should have your rent and council tax covered for life so even better than owning cause you dont even need to repair the place. so work on that. 

get yourself a campervan and take 6 months off work travelling around, you couldnt do that with a mortgage could you?, well you could but every day you will fear the tenants will stop paying or trash the place. 

And just remember them with houses are often bigger slaves than you are, they also have much less money to spend on fun and a pizza or football tiicket, they fear their job more and many are having to stay with their horrible wives because of that house. 

 

so yes im out the market too but happily so. for the price of a deposit i have a free house with full repair and working on the council tax for free. you should do this too. 

[mark hughes]

 

well who cares. im 50 im past caring now. however im far better off than most that bought but i never really looked at it that way till recently. i have got me a nice council house cost 3200 a year and i pay a year in advance. i get that money by investing what was my housing deposit and the dividends even in this year pay that off, my portfolio even rises. so while you live in your house that you pay a mortgage on i live in a house that cost me far less and i dont even need to pay to repair it. meanwhile that homeowner usually has all his eggs in the housing basket and spends half his time and money repairing the thing. and you know the worse part, they will probably die and never reap the benifit of their great investment that they spend half their life talking about. 

 

so advice to them that have gace up, EMBRACE IT, het on the housing list for a decent area. buy yourself a nice home in spain or france for 20k-30k and watch all them scurry to work to pay off the mortgage that half of them will never benifit from. invest your savings to pay your bills, 50k and you should have your rent and council tax covered for life so even better than owning cause you dont even need to repair the place. so work on that. 

get yourself a campervan and take 6 months off work travelling around, you couldnt do that with a mortgage could you?, well you could but every day you will fear the tenants will stop paying or trash the place. 

And just remember them with houses are often bigger slaves than you are, they also have much less money to spend on fun and a pizza or football tiicket, they fear their job more and many are having to stay with their horrible wives because of that house. 

 

so yes im out the market too but happily so. for the price of a deposit i have a free house with full repair and working on the council tax for free. you should do this too. 

Having read the part of your post that "you're far better off than most that have bought but you have never really looked at it that way" from the description of your situation I would guess that most of the others on this site have never thought of it that way either.

[Dreamcasting]

 

 buy yourself a nice home in spain or france for 20k-30k

Not sure what you're on but you're delusional if you think you can buy a nice home in Spain or France for 20 to 30k. And most people can't speak either language so would struggle, AND most people have no residency rights to live there and never will.

Ah, milk and honey all round.

[Martin_JD]

I do feel sorry for the likes of the OP, it seems like people tend to focus on some kind of conspiracy theory to help them understand why they cannot afford to buy, when the reality is much simpler, there is a lack of supply of good housing stock in this country.   

[Frugal Git]

 

These discussions seldom reference actual salaries and location specific prices but I appreciate why people naturally wouldn’t want to reveal that information.

Dare I ask the circumstances of those that are giving up on the prospect of owning? What are typical prices of acceptable/good/really good homes or flats in your area? 

Sod it, I'll bite. Most of you will think I'm an utter lunatic. This also isn't meant to be a willy waving post - because if I'm honest with myself, I think I've made some terrible, terrible mistakes. It's just a look into the psyche of a housing bear who *could* afford it - because my 'giving up on the prospect of owning' is 100% not based on personal affordability. 

The typical price of an acceptable home that would suit my family circumstances, within commutable distance of work - - is between 350-400k. In the city I work in, the same sort of home would be 600-700K. 

The price of the ideal home nearby is 550k, and in the city it'd be knocking a million. 

I work part time. Partially thanks to some spectacular luck with the company I work for, and the fact I'm not bad at my job, my gross earnings annually are currently ~3x the median full time local (city) salary, and probably about 2x what a typical worker in my job role gets. If I worked full time, they'd be 5x the median. These gross earning might fluctuate because a significant part of my comp currently is not cash, but for the next 7 years it is possible I'll maintain around that level. If not, it's unlikely I'll drop below 2x the median provided I keep my job. So whilst my income isn't banker level(although for someone who works part time, it's a probably a big outlier), it isn't crap. 

I'm early 40s. Up until very recently I 'invested' pretty poorly over my life, mainly in stocks. If I had invested well - rather than attempting to trade, and kept my stock purchases I made in 2008, I'd be worth maybe 3-4 million GBP. Probably more - because if I'd been that successful, I'd have had the confidence to go with my gut on a few other things since that would have also paid off very well. That said, maybe I would also be bankrupt if I had kept trading instead of giving up and starting to invest, which happened very much after the main part of the post financial crisis bull run.

Instead, my net worth, including pensions, is a little over 500k. For my age, that's not brilliant. I could have beat that by buying a big house within a year of graduating and paying down the mortgage very fast. Or by sticking to my convictions with trades. Or by actually investing properly. Or by loading up on buy to let and cashing out a few years ago. Many, many ways. But I have always had zero debt, and I like that. Anyway, it's growing quite fast at the moment. Thank you pension tax relief, and the compounding effect of actually keeping non cash investments. Time in the market and all that.

So I can easily afford the 'acceptable home'. In fact, I live in it. My partner owns it with their ex. I effectively pay 'rent' to live there because my salary is partially used to pay their mortgage, but I don't have any equity stake. I could buy the ex out for cash - that has been talked about many times - but I am not desperate to do so and neither is my partner.

Again, you will think I'm bonkers for doing that. I probably am.

But, here's the thing.  

1) I don't really enjoy the idea of owning a house. It is a ball and chain around the neck.

2) I love having liquidity for fun, investment, and security. It's an awesome feeling to know I *can* buy pretty much whatever I want within reason - be that a house, a good car - whatever. I don't, but I *can*.

3) I only buy where I see value. With housing, I simply do not perceive personal value. I see a rigged market. The stock market is similar, but I can get in and out with a mouse click. I can learn a lot about the way the world works by doing so too. 

4) Eventually - hopefully a very long, long time away, I'll probably inherit half a house nearby. And probably a large pile of cashed in investments on top. Please don't think this is a primary thought of mine. It won't make a difference if I don't inherit because I will likely be sorted either way, but it's something to consider. Within my family, there's already a house. And it forms a percentage of the overall extrapolated net worth that is about right by my reckoning. If I bought too, it'd drag that percentage (of net wealth in real estate) too high. 

This is how my mind thinks. To be clear - I don't think it's wrong to buy, but its not for me. I've made different choices, and I'm happy with them. You all should do the same. Make a decision, and live with it. 

Feel free to laugh, criticize - whatever. I'm happy with how things are. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Frugal Git

[kzb]

 

Except, that's just utter bull.

You're losing interest on your 60% deposit.  

While you could be getting 20% a year on it in the stock market right now.

Why dont you troll off and get yourself on mumsnet, they might believe you.

The trouble with the UK is people believe morons like this and go head first into property as an investment.

Moron.

I think you're being unduly negative about that post.

The stock market is a gamble.  Good luck getting any return to speak of in secure savings.

Most places the mortgage will be no more and maybe less than renting an equivalent property.

Outside London and some other "hotspots" housing is just as affordable now as it was in the 1980's, when the hated boomers were in their heyday.  That is, as long as interest rates stay low, but we are not seeing any sign they could go up significantly any time soon.

For decades people have headed SE for higher salaries, perhaps that pattern has to be reversed now.  Head for lower salary but affordable home?

[Pmax2020]

My wife works part time but together our gross is around 50-55k. Beyond the cities and the select ‘exclusive’ suburbs you can get a house many would be proud of for 200-250k. Of course you have better housing the more you spend but I often joke that you can live like a king in Scotland for 300-350k.

I know couples with no kids and combined incomes of 80-90k that wouldn’t dream of selling their 250-275k houses because they are happy. Lots of space, nice garden and easy commute sub-30 minute commute to work. Bigger places in more desirable spots just aren’t important to them. Hence my impression of housing being relatively affordable in Scotland. 
 

Our house is about 225k and people think we are completely mad for wanting to sell it. It’s a beautiful looking house directly opposite a park. (I can walk 4 minutes to catch a 30 minute train into Edinburgh).

In a few hours we are viewing a stunning 350k detached period house that’s a 25 min drive from Edinburgh. I don’t think we will get it as my HPC mindset is in overdrive. I think it could be worth 450k once done up... but what if that becomes 375k with a crash? It needs everything doing to it. 

[24gray24]

"Owning a house is a ball and chain round your neck"

That was a phrase my grandfather used and which my father remembered. 

The thing is: it comes from the 1930's  (when property prices in us fell 90%) after 1929 crash.

But we've just finished living through a spectacular house price inflation, so that's the opposite of "ball and chain". That's more like "getting on the ladder" to wealth and "you can't lose with bricks and mortar".

But that's over as well now. 

So where are we now? What's the slogan for a stagnant era? "It's just a house". ?  Not something to be excited about? Perhaps "the land of limited opportunity" and the age of travel and "a new life abroad". 

[Pmax2020]

 

"Owning a house is a ball and chain round your neck"

That was a phrase my grandfather used and which my father remembered. 

The thing is: it comes from the 1930's  (when property prices in us fell 90%) after 1929 crash.

But we've just finished living through a spectacular house price inflation, so that's the opposite of "ball and chain". That's more like "getting on the ladder" to wealth and "you can't lose with bricks and mortar".

But that's over as well now. 

So where are we now? What's the slogan for a stagnant era? "It's just a house". ?  Not something to be excited about? Perhaps "the land of limited opportunity" and the age of travel and "a new life abroad". 

Is there not a degree or sour grapes here. The market hasn’t helped me out at all, but surely 90% of people that have bought since 2000 have seen their properties rise in value healthily. So many people have made a lot of money from property.

I suppose a stagnant market is less appetising but an end to prices rising is ultimately what we want.

[Si1]

 

One of the few things that you actually use to its full capacity which, over time, increases in value rather than reducing in value.  Worth factoring in that mortgages nearly always do down and rent nearly always goes up (something to bear in mind when  you are drawing your pension I would suggest).

Of course you could use maths instead. But no make a few unspecific qualitative assertions instead.

[yodigo]

 

Not sure what you're on but you're delusional if you think you can buy a nice home in Spain or France for 20 to 30k. And most people can't speak either language so would struggle, AND most people have no residency rights to live there and never will.

Ah, milk and honey all round.

Depends on what you define as nice

https://www.servihabitat.com/es/venta/vivienda-piso/alicante-altovinalopo-villena/60580171

https://www.servihabitat.com/es/venta/vivienda-piso/alicante-mediovinalopo-elda/60577467

[captainb]

 

Is there not a degree or sour grapes here. The market hasn’t helped me out at all, but surely 90% of people that have bought since 2000 have seen their properties rise in value healthily. So many people have made a lot of money from property.

I suppose a stagnant market is less appetising but an end to prices rising is ultimately what we want.

They have also paid off a mortgage. Minor point... TBH id hate to retire renting, and thats before pensions have been squeezed to nothing.

Current estimate is you need another £500k in the pension pot to make up the shortfall.

[mark hughes]

 

Of course you could use maths instead. But no make a few unspecific qualitative assertions instead.

I fear we are heading for the "Yes I accept that house prices increased from an average of £80k in 2000 to an average of £220k over 20 years but if you take into account inflation, new roof, new boiler, etc they have actually gone down in price".  Its never worth saying in reply "Well I put down a 10% deposit of £8k and pay the mortgage off in five years" because the house belongs to the bank until you've paid if off.  Then there's the, "If you had invested your £8k in gold you would be considerably better off" argument.

[Si1]

 

I fear we are heading for the "Yes I accept that house prices increased from an average of £80k in 2000 to an average of £220k over 20 years but if you take into account inflation, new roof, new boiler, etc they have actually gone down in price".  Its never worth saying in reply "Well I put down a 10% deposit of £8k and pay the mortgage off in five years" because the house belongs to the bank until you've paid if off.  Then there's the, "If you had invested your £8k in gold you would be considerably better off" argument.

Thanks for proving my point.

[Sprite]

Firstly I think people need to get away from the idea of a crash of circa 50%. That is unlikely to ever happen unless the economy becomes Greece 2.0.

Will we see a reduction of maybe 15 or 20%, its possible and I think this is the best we can hope for right now given the the low supply and high demand for housing.

I'm also not going to criticise anyone who buys their home to live in and enjoy because in my opinion they are buying for the right reasons.

When I look at my own situation, I am a little bitter of how things turned out for me through no fault of my own. To give context, I'm 3rd generation immigrant and grew up in the North of England. My family were working class and we were living in a 2 bed terraced house as a family of 5 (I was the youngest). Due to lack of space me and my brother actually had sofas as beds. Luckily we are now not in this position any more since my siblings have decent professional jobs.

Fast forward a few years I went to Uni and graduated and moved to London for work in 2014 - if people were to look from the outside they would consider I've done OK. But this is where my real issue with housing began. I have been living in house shares since 2014 throwing away money for my landlord to enjoy whilst I have had to put up with the following: rats, cockroaches, overcrowded housing, crappy housemates, lack of freedom (which is probably the most important thing). I couldn't even use the kitchen when I wanted to or the shower at certain times - some  may think this is petty but it builds frustration and annoyance over time.

Because of some of the above I actually had mental health problems last year and was prescribed anti-depressants which was pretty much because of my living situation.

The most frustrating thing was that if I was just born 20 years earlier I could probably buy 2 houses on the road where I previously lived but now could only afford to rent a room in a flat. Another point of frustration was that my salary was decent. 

Even though I'm quite decently paid and my bonus is fairly decent, I wasn't going to get any outside help for deposit so saving from scratch the deposit has been the biggest hurdle for me to get on the property ladder.

Ironically, the pandemic has greatly aided me since I moved back with my sister and am living rent free and saving 95% of my monthly salary which has got me the deposit (as well as my HL ISA). Once my office reopens and I move back to London, I will definitely be looking to buy just because its the right decision for me and my personal wellbeing.

Everyone is in different circumstances and I should be relieved that I am now in the position to at least by a flat. I really do feel for people who cannot afford and are living in house shares. Its no way to live life in my opinion.

 

[Frugal Git]

 

 

Current estimate is you need another £500k in the pension pot to make up the shortfall.

No worries then.

[shlomo]

 

I hadn't hoisted in that CON had said "Bye" in his initial post.  I'm not sure about house prices going down but I do believe CON will be back within a few days.  Six posts a day for 13 years is going to be hard to give up.

He cannot leave this website, so he cannot buy a house, he would lose all status here

[satsuma]

 

Firstly I think people need to get away from the idea of a crash of circa 50%. That is unlikely to ever happen unless the economy becomes Greece 2.0.

Will we see a reduction of maybe 15 or 20%, its possible and I think this is the best we can hope for right now given the the low supply and high demand for housing.

I'm also not going to criticise anyone who buys their home to live in and enjoy because in my opinion they are buying for the right reasons.

When I look at my own situation, I am a little bitter of how things turned out for me through no fault of my own. To give context, I'm 3rd generation immigrant and grew up in the North of England. My family were working class and we were living in a 2 bed terraced house as a family of 5 (I was the youngest). Due to lack of space me and my brother actually had sofas as beds. Luckily we are now not in this position any more since my siblings have decent professional jobs.

Fast forward a few years I went to Uni and graduated and moved to London for work in 2014 - if people were to look from the outside they would consider I've done OK. But this is where my real issue with housing began. I have been living in house shares since 2014 throwing away money for my landlord to enjoy whilst I have had to put up with the following: rats, cockroaches, overcrowded housing, crappy housemates, lack of freedom (which is probably the most important thing). I couldn't even use the kitchen when I wanted to or the shower at certain times - some  may think this is petty but it builds frustration and annoyance over time.

Because of some of the above I actually had mental health problems last year and was prescribed anti-depressants which was pretty much because of my living situation.

The most frustrating thing was that if I was just born 20 years earlier I could probably buy 2 houses on the road where I previously lived but now could only afford to rent a room in a flat. Another point of frustration was that my salary was decent. 

Even though I'm quite decently paid and my bonus is fairly decent, I wasn't going to get any outside help for deposit so saving from scratch the deposit has been the biggest hurdle for me to get on the property ladder.

Ironically, the pandemic has greatly aided me since I moved back with my sister and am living rent free and saving 95% of my monthly salary which has got me the deposit (as well as my HL ISA). Once my office reopens and I move back to London, I will definitely be looking to buy just because its the right decision for me and my personal wellbeing.

Everyone is in different circumstances and I should be relieved that I am now in the position to at least by a flat. I really do feel for people who cannot afford and are living in house shares. Its no way to live life in my opinion.

 

Unfortunately you and many others have been turned into cash cows for the banks.  The rent goes to the BTL landlord to fund the mortgage which pays the bank interest plus a fat remortgage fee (every two years!!).  But its not all bad, the money is wisely spent on bollinger and cigars plus range rovers.  I think the recent crisis had cemented this now for a generation to come.  Its likley there will be a bit of a drop coming so get into a property, it will not take long for them to reinflate.  

[mark hughes]

 

He cannot leave this website, so he cannot buy a house, he would lose all status here

There was a guy on this and then the CreditCrunch website, Geneer, who posted lots every day about buyers being deluded and then, two years after he had bought, and whilst he had continued his berating of buyers, revealed that he had bought two years previously.  He then started to post copies of his bank statements etc as no-one could believe that he had actually been so two faced.  Apologies for the swearing but he took a little bit of stick.

 

[morty]

Talk of bail outs, bail ins, massive gov spending etc shouldn’t I be buying?  I missed out after 2008, isn’t now 2008 on steroids?  Only London for me though, near a tube station, so flat is the only option.

[longgone]

I'm giving in too. 

going to go find work again and pay my fair share of income tax and NI. so i can sub those sat at home with less than 6k in the bank, or those living in Romania claiming 25 bounce back loans. 

[markyh]

 

I'm giving in too. 

going to go find work again and pay my fair share of income tax and NI. so i can sub those sat at home with less than 6k in the bank, or those living in Romania claiming 25 bounce back loans. 

Wait what/ i thought you were going to impress us soon with your mad trading skills and put all your remaining six figure GBP savings all in on Bitcoin at the prefect entry moment between now and sometime in 2021, catch all gainz, and cash out within days of the next top a millionaire?  Just to show us long term loser investors how it's done. Get in get out , get rich. Simples.

[longgone]

 

Wait what/ i thought you were going to impress us soon with your mad trading skills and put all your remaining six figure GBP savings all in on Bitcoin at the prefect entry moment between now and sometime in 2021, catch all gainz, and cash out within days of the next top a millionaire?  Just to show us long term loser investors how it's done. Get in get out , get rich. Simples.

when you cash out i will buy in. simple. 

 

[markyh]

 

when you cash out i will buy in. simple. 

 

Then i shall make sure to let all know of the bitcoin thread a few days before my sale trade, you you can be ready, the more on the opposite side of my trade, the less slippage i get in the price. Thanks. 

[longgone]

 

Then i shall make sure to let all know of the bitcoin thread a few days before my sale trade, you you can be ready, the more on the opposite side of my trade, the less slippage i get in the price. Thanks. 

fab i look forward to making life changing amounts. 

BTW you already have a thread for this no need to infect all the other threads with this ponzi stuff.